Author Topic: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?  (Read 49398 times)

Offline Werd

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2015, 11:07:35 AM »
  Yes I have wedged a tubed buffer in between a CDP nd preamp. A Promithius buffer.
    An instant improvement but not all around. loved the top end and midrange however the bass suffered. Bass became a tad looser and boomy.
    So decided to try a tubed CDP a Lector 7T. No looking back. Gave me everything I desired with tube flavor and much better sonics all around. Lesson learned.
    The Elite series has a a character of slightly warm so it must be another culprit.
      Have you experimented with cables at all ? first try speaker cables then ICs. Biggest change will come from speaker cables.
      It could also be that the settings on the receiver are just not right.
      Response Audio for a buffer if you want to try one. TWL for cables as a starting point.
     BTW welcome Headspace and frankthetech


charles

 :rofl: you too
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 11:54:53 AM »
I'm very happy with the SS equipment I've been using the last couple years. I think they give me everything I love about tubes without the drama and frustration. I do enjoy tube amps but have no desire to jump into that psychological quagmire again any time soon.

I have never heard a stand alone tube buffer that did not damage the signal more than it helped. But I have heard some great tube preamps and amps, so I know it's not the tubes' fault.  

Rich I think that is because nobody would go through the effort and expense of adding a tube buffer to a unit that sounded great already. It just wouldn't make sense. So what to end up with is a tube stage trying to cover up  the less than stellar performance of the unit it is buffering. What is the old saying about trying to put lipstick on a pig?
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2015, 02:45:04 PM »
Being intended as a cosmetic to cover up inexpensive gear, they don't cost enough to be much good.

frankthetech

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2015, 03:16:00 PM »
OK all I said was IMO its an improvement over what was in there to begin with.
To say that tubes color the sound, sure it sounds different.
But I defend that a 100 transistors will have some effect on the sound too.
Each op-amp contains lots of transistors and there are many op-amps in the signal path from the DAC to the RCA outputs on any given CD player.
So it all depends on what you like.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2015, 08:25:31 PM »
OK all I said was IMO its an improvement over what was in there to begin with.
To say that tubes color the sound, sure it sounds different.
But I defend that a 100 transistors will have some effect on the sound too.
Each op-amp contains lots of transistors and there are many op-amps in the signal path from the DAC to the RCA outputs on any given CD player.
So it all depends on what you like.


You are 100% right. Everything colors the sound in some way. I hope you don't take any of what has been said as a personal affront to your post. One of the great things that goes on here at AN is the free exchange of ideas in a brainstorming type fashion. we throw a lot of stuff out on a conceptual basis but in the end you are absolutely right, it is all about what makes you happy in your system. Something can be 1000% technically correct, but if you don't like the way it sounds, then oh well. This hobby is all about building a system they make YOU happy, nobody else.

That said I think the way the discussion started to roll was talking about whether it is better add a tube buffer to a sub par cd player or to just buy a better CD player in the first place or likewise, if you like the tube sound would it be better to buy a player built with a tube output from the ground up.

Again, each of our circumstances are different, and what might make sense to one person might not make sense in another situation (or even to the same person at two different points in time.)
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2015, 09:58:59 PM »
OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
 Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer  to tube output.



Frank, I agree with what you're saying here. Tubifying a component is a nice way to go.

My vitriol was randomly directed at the stand alone component products called "tube buffers" which come in their own box, with their own power supply, fancy case, more cables, etc. They are often added to a system to cover up the bad sound of the source component preceding it. Often a bad source with an opamp has plenty of power to drive the signal, so a buffer is not what is required to improve the sound. The tube buffer is usually a warming device that adds distortion to cover up something bad. It is usually a waste of money that doesn't cure the real problem. I used a Burson Buffer once, for about a week. My friend came over and said let's pull it out to see what it's doing. Shazamm! The clouds parted and all was well. Unbelievable. So many people bought that pos when Squeezebox 3 mods were all the rage.

Your idea is to rip out the shitty opamp buffer circuit and replace it with something that sounds nicer, a real upgrade and improvement, not just an expensive band aid.

frankthetech

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 11:58:09 AM »
Ive got a Sony CD player that I converted to tube outputs.
Left the old RCA outputs in place so I could switch back an forth to check the difference.  Now I only use the tube outs.
Hard to say why, but to me it just sounds better, a lot better!
I used a 12au7 with a gain of 5 or 6. Well worth doing. My cost to do this was about $75 in parts. Labor, well its my time so no cost, but I'd say it takes 4 hours to do, including the case mod.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 12:16:27 PM »
Now we are talking. If yiou are capable it is much better to replcace the crappy op-amps with a tube stage rather than just slapping one behind them.  :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline rollo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 07:49:08 AM »
   Good move frankthetech. IMO for most of the CDP out there the analog board is the weak link.
    It always puzzled me as to why we even need that board when a preamp is used. A simple gain stage after DA conversion just makes sense. If not using a preamp then one must accept the use of the internal analog board and volume control.
    IMO just try different CDP and DACs until you find your synergy with your system. Or mod as frank has done.
     Frankthetech have to ask the obvious , do you mod or repair gear as a business or just for yourself ?


charles
   
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Offline Response Audio

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2015, 10:20:22 AM »
I personally do like tube buffers (obviously). However, a tube buffer should not be added to a system expecting it to improve the components they are used with. If using a tube buffer between a CD player and preamp, it will not improve the performance of the CD player. It cannot bring out detail, resolution, etc. that the CD player does not already have. As mentioned, it will change the way in which these characteristics are presented. A bit more tube sound and maybe soften some of the aggressiveness that some less expensive players poses.

It will be a "different" presentation. Maybe better to you, maybe not. The weakest link in a system will always be the weakest link. A buffer will not make it better........maybe more tolerable?
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2015, 11:24:18 AM »
I personally do like tube buffers (obviously). However, a tube buffer should not be added to a system expecting it to improve the components they are used with. If using a tube buffer between a CD player and preamp, it will not improve the performance of the CD player. It cannot bring out detail, resolution, etc. that the CD player does not already have. As mentioned, it will change the way in which these characteristics are presented. A bit more tube sound and maybe soften some of the aggressiveness that some less expensive players poses.

It will be a "different" presentation. Maybe better to you, maybe not. The weakest link in a system will always be the weakest link. A buffer will not make it better........maybe more tolerable?

Well put Bill.
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Werd

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2015, 08:59:50 PM »
It is just a tweak, i had one of those Musical fidelity ones. It was attempting to be a bandaid fix for shit SS. I sold it but i kept the musical fidelity watch that came with it.  :lol:

It sat in the face of my system build philosophy. It didn't offer anything i liked about tubes. Just added more distortion with a bloated texture to it.

There is a technique in rpg gaming that fits and can be applied to building stereo. In on line gaming there is technique for building online characters. Its called min-maxing. Basically you take a particular attribute offered and you maximize that attribute. If you build a character around strenght. You take all strenght gear and strength talents and maximize. You rid all the gear with stuff making you faster or protective.  This makes that character perform the best under strength performing activities. You basically maximise that attribute. If you don't know how to do this it basically illuminates you from raiding or participating with any serious goal minded guilds.

It's the same for stereo building imo. If you going to build a system around tubes the idea is you maximize the tube placement in gear. Basically all tubes then you can ease back on with cabling or tube changing.
So to me it does not make sense to put together an SS system then apply tubes. Its losing the initial musical intent of the system build.

There are always exceptions but i really do not believe building gear around (the possibility of) exceptions is a good method.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 09:19:54 PM by Werd »
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frankthetech

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2015, 03:22:41 PM »
Yes, I do agree that placing a tube buffer after the cdp outs and before your amp would do little to improve your sound.
As said above it might color the sound a bit toward a tube flavor, but no real improvement.
     Frankthetech have to ask the obvious , do you mod or repair gear as a business or just for yourself ?


charles
   

No I do it mostly for myself, but have built stuff for others.
Most who hear the CD player with a tube output want one for themselves. So I do what I can to help out those looking for better sound.

Offline Response Audio

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2015, 05:41:36 PM »
Another aspect of buffers is the quality. Trying to evaluate the full potential of a.buffer using a $200-$300 piece will not tell you everything a buffer is capable of. The MF buffer are better suited for an average, mid Fi system or when impedance matching is required. They were very nice additions to inexpensive home theater systems using receivers and DVD players.
There are some very good buffers on the market that will give you more performance and actually have the potential to show what a buffer can offer.
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frankthetech

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2015, 06:27:48 PM »
I can't speak to the buffer idea as I'v never tried one.
For me it was just easier  to build one into the cd player.
Still I will say that the sound quality has to be taken from the best source and then amplify from there.
IMO cd's are still the best way to store music, unlike albums they never change the way an album will scratch and wear out slowly.
Some people that I'v done this for run high end sand amps and love the sound.
My main tube amp is a KT88 PP unit I built. Great sound no doubt but will still only amplify whats put in. Input better sound and the result is even better music out.
We must tackle the quality from the source and then amplify.
I was there when tubes were being replaced by sand and sure I bought into it too. Now I'm convinced we went a step or more backwards in sound quality.
Well, just my thinking..