Author Topic: Daedalus Speakers  (Read 10364 times)

Bigfish8

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Daedalus Speakers
« on: September 30, 2007, 11:50:57 AM »
I am wondering if any of you guys own or have listened to Daedalus Speakers?  I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks,

Ken

WEEZ

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2007, 06:39:10 PM »
Hi Ken,

I heard them last year @ RMAF. They were driven by Red Dragon class D amplifiers. This year, they are showing with Art Audio amps :drool:.

I remember them sounding very smooth...maybe slightly dark. Rich and full. I'll listen again this year and take better notes; and report back in a couple weeks.

In the meantime, contact Jim Hines; I believe he still has a pair. Forget which model, though.

WEEZ

Bigfish8

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2007, 06:57:07 PM »
Hi Ken,

I heard them last year @ RMAF. They were driven by Red Dragon class D amplifiers. This year, they are showing with Art Audio amps :drool:.

I remember them sounding very smooth...maybe slightly dark. Rich and full. I'll listen again this year and take better notes; and report back in a couple weeks.

In the meantime, contact Jim Hines; I believe he still has a pair. Forget which model, though.

WEEZ

Weez:

Thank you for the response and I look forward to your report from RMAF (I wish I had planned to go).  I have traded PMs with Jim and like me he owns SP Tech Timepieces in addition to the Daedalus.  Jim is a huge fan of the Timepieces and has not listened to the Daedalus Speakers for some time. 

I wonder if the new Daedalus Speakers will be at RMAF?

Again I look forward to your comments when you get back.

Thanks,

Ken

WEEZ

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2007, 07:09:52 PM »
Yes, they say they will be showing the new models. I'll do my best to report what my ears tell me. :)

The only SP Tech speaker I've heard is the Nuforce 9's. If, and I mean IF, the 9's are typical of the SP Tech 'sound', I can already tell you that Daedalus speakers and SP Tech speakers sound nothing alike.

WEEZ

Bigfish8

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 07:22:18 PM »
Yes, they say they will be showing the new models. I'll do my best to report what my ears tell me. :)

The only SP Tech speaker I've heard is the Nuforce 9's. If, and I mean IF, the 9's are typical of the SP Tech 'sound', I can already tell you that Daedalus speakers and SP Tech speakers sound nothing alike.

WEEZ

Weez:

I find my Timepieces have tremendous accuracy, are very revealing, excellent bass and to me lack warmth.  My system consists of:

Odyssey Mono SE amps
Odyssey Candela Preamp (tubes)
Bolder Analog Modded S3 with Platinum Caps feed by a Bolder Modded Elpac VM 220 Power Supply
The S3 feeds a stock Burson Buffer into the Preamp
Speakers - SP Tech Timepieces
SCs- Gregg Straley Reality SCs
ICs - Grover Graphites
PCs - Black Sand Silvers to Amps and Preamp

I did not hear the Timepieces before I purchased them.  Again, they are certainly accurate and revealing as you expect from a Monitor Speaker.  However, I think long term I will want a speaker that may not be as accurate but has more warmth.  This is my first "high-end" 2 channel system and I have not listened to many speakers.  Prior to receiving the Timepieces I had Monitor Audio 9is.  They lacked the detail and low end of the Timepieces but they had what I would describe as a warmer sound.

To make a long story short I will continue to live with the Timepieces for awhile and hope I will come to love them.  However, I am already browsing the threads about speakers.  I read comments and visited the Dadealus Site and I felt they would be worth learning more about them.

Thanks Again,

Ken

Offline bpape

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 07:57:12 PM »
If you know anyone who has Harmonic Tech or another OCC based speaker cable, you might want to give that a try.  The other thing you may want to try is swapping some NOS tubes into the Candella.  50's/60's RCA Blackplates will definitely warm things up.  If you need to go farther, you can get into Mullards.

I only got to listen to the Red Dragon room for a short while last year but my initial impression honestly wasn't enough to make me really want to make time to come back and listen again to the Daedalus'.  They just weren't my cup of tea - sorry.  I'll give them another listen this year if I get time - could just have been a poor amp/speaker matchup.

I found them to be very 'plain' for lack of a better term.  They really didn't do much of anything wrong, they just didn't really stand out and do anything special IMO. 

As always, YMMV.  Personal preference is a lot and it's certainly difficult to really make things sound good in a show setting in a hotel room.  I just heard a lot of other things that interested me a lot more than they did.

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

Bigfish8

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2007, 04:41:09 AM »
If you know anyone who has Harmonic Tech or another OCC based speaker cable, you might want to give that a try.  The other thing you may want to try is swapping some NOS tubes into the Candella.  50's/60's RCA Blackplates will definitely warm things up.  If you need to go farther, you can get into Mullards.

I only got to listen to the Red Dragon room for a short while last year but my initial impression honestly wasn't enough to make me really want to make time to come back and listen again to the Daedalus'.  They just weren't my cup of tea - sorry.  I'll give them another listen this year if I get time - could just have been a poor amp/speaker matchup.

I found them to be very 'plain' for lack of a better term.  They really didn't do much of anything wrong, they just didn't really stand out and do anything special IMO. 

As always, YMMV.  Personal preference is a lot and it's certainly difficult to really make things sound good in a show setting in a hotel room.  I just heard a lot of other things that interested me a lot more than they did.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan:

You are the third person to suggest different cables.  I think I will take out the Grover ICs and evaluate the Groneburg's in their place.  I will then take out the Reality SCs and evaluate the Groneburgs I have there.  If I like the changes I will then start seeking new cables.  Also, I guess I need to purchase some tubes and start evaluating them.  If I can warm the sound up a little I think I will be a lot happier.

Ken


Offline rollo

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2007, 06:01:47 AM »
  The first thing I would try is swapping tubes in your preamp. As bpape suggested the RCAs or Mullards should warm it up a bit. second cabling. Start with the speaker cable as it makes the most difference.
     If all fails consider Adagio Speakers. They have an excellent synergy with your amps. good luck its only just begun.


rollo
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2007, 06:05:48 AM »
I agree with bryans advice. There's a lot of room left in the warmth knob, and the SPs will reveal those changes accurately. I tried stereofools HT 9Pro speaker cables, they did "warm" things up, I guess, but in a different way than tubes. It was more of a happier, funner sound, as opposed to actually changing the tone. I think it comes from the ring in the copper. It is a distortion mechanism that is very enjoyable. It makes everything sound "good." They do have full extension and I think they are an awesome SC, especially considering the price. Used ones do pop up on 'gonner fairly often.

With the warmth that comes from tube swap you may also find some loss of high end detail, so watch for that. To avoid this you may find yourself searching for rare and desirable NOS tubes. The quality of those is hard to know before you buy, so choose a used tube dealer carefully. I have bought from Andy Bowman of Vintage Tube Services and I would recommend him highly for good used tubes that are well screened. You will get what you pay for with Andy. Used tubes are a bit of a game, you win and lose some, but it has a lot of advantages. The only real risk (with a good dealer) is that they will not  last very long, and/or will not produce full power since they are already used once. He also sells NOS stuff too. Many NOS tubes are mfg. rejects which is why they were not used. Now they sell for 100 times what the good ones did when still in poduction, so sometimes getting a good used tube is better value than NOS, but not always. I have also had excellent service from tubedepot for new production and NOS small tubes.

What tubes does Candela use?
Rich


Offline bpape

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2007, 07:08:55 AM »
That's part of why I recommended the SC change first.  You get the bass extension and the warmth without losing the detail.  Distortion?  Maybe but I don't personally think so.  Then again, I've never been a fan of silver in the signal path - especially on speaker cabling - personal preference and system matching.

IMO, the RCA's (black plates) are the nice middle ground.  You still keep most of the detail but get some nice 100-800Hz warmth.  They can also be had at reasonable prices.  I paid around $40 for a pair a couple of times.  The Mullards go a little farther and are very system dependent as to whether it's too far or not. 

You can get into Telefunkens and some others but they start getting stupid expensive for a little preamp tube.

Bryan
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Black Sand Cable

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2007, 09:22:05 AM »
Sorry guys but I'm going to step out on a limb here and play devils advocate. I disagree with almost everything that is being said here.

I still love you guys though!  :D)

Ken is reporting that the speakers lack warmth. This exact same thing has been said countless times about the Timepieces. It's not a knock on the speakers, it's simply the way they are designed. Some folks like it, some don't. I don't want to speak for Ken but I'm guessing he is currently in the don't like camp. Swapping tubes, speaker cables and ic's and hell even power cords isn't going to magically make these speakers warm to the point that Ken wants. He may get close via tube amps or high current SS amps but I still have my doubts. Keep in mind one thing, he is coming from a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 9i's that from all accounts he liked but wanted to move up the food chain. For any of you who have experience with Monitor Audio speakers you will know that it doesn't matter what he does with his current system, he is never going to get the Timepieces to sound even remotely close to the MA's. That is not to say that the Timepieces are a better speaker then the MA's as you wont get me saying that.....it's simply that they are two very different speakers that do what they do very differently.

IMO having him hunt down new ic's, speaker wire, tubes, power cords, etc etc is a complete waste of his time as it won't work. I may be wrong and you are all free to come back and say I told you so if he gets it to work but I have serious doubts.

I went down this road once upon a time with a set of very well reviewed speakers that were universally recognized as being overly forward, accurate, bright or whatever the hell term it is you want to use. At the end of the day I swapped everything in my system trying to warm them up and nothing worked. That experienced convinced me on my current belief of buy speakers you like first and build around them versus the other way around.

My thoughts are simply this. Why is Ken going to spend a bunch of time and money trying to tone down his speakers when he seems to be happy with his system in general? Would it not make more sense to keep the system he is happy with and replace what he is having an issue with?

miklorsmith

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 10:09:51 AM »
Ordinarily, I'd say yes, that makes perfect sense.  Here . . . not so much.  The thing is that SP Tech speakers are universally regarded as The Best in The World.  The normal rules of "different strokes" don't apply - everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes.

So, bend heaven and earth to get them to sound right.  Replace everything if needed.  Re-mortgage your home if equipment in your price range doesn't do it.  A life of crime can be very profitable if the house thing doesn't generate the scratch.

It might not make sense on the surface to pair reasonably priced speakers with megabux amps and wires and whatnot, but close your eyes and proceed.  Beeleeve you me, this is the One True Path, and one that you will thank me for, IF you have the fortitude to follow it far enough.

Of course, YMMV.   :D

Oh yeah, I haven't heard the Daedalus speakers.

Offline bpape

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 10:12:23 AM »
To each their own and I understand your points and agree somewhat.  The difference is that most speakers that are warmish won't give you the detail that he does seem to like (and IMO the Timepieces are a lot better speaker).   I'll also say that IMO, I feel they're a bit on the forward side too.  They've got scads of detail and are very fast but it's not a sound I could listen to for a long time.  The thing is between those or the Daedalus, I'd still take the Timepieces because I CAN tame them.  I can't make the Daedalus sound exciting, image better, etc.

I'll just say that I've just finished 'tuning' my system to keep the attributes of the speakers that I liked but bring them 'back' a bit.  This was done with tube changes, IC changes, and swapping output caps in my preamp to OIMPs.  It can work - you just really have to know specifically what each piece is doing, what you're looking for, and what you can do to each piece of the chain to address it without sacrificing something else.  ... and I run a similar setup with a tube preamp and a solid state amp - but it's Class A up to 30W.  It can be a frustrating and expensive way to get where you want - but it can also let you tweak the details to your personal preference.

On the other hand, if you don't want to play that game, then I'd agree - get some speakers that may have a little less detail but have more of the frequency balance you're looking for.  Some of my personal favorites for this are the ACI Sapphire XL's - that's why I'm showing with Mike at RMAF.  Not overly edgy or forward but not laid back either.  Very reflective of what's driving them.  Reasonably priced.  Disappear into the abyss when set up properly.

I have a real good idea of what the Sapphires would sound like in that system.  I just last week listened to them on:

Korato KVP-20 (with the above mods mentioned)
Korato KVA-100 amp (also have a pair of Odyssey Mono SE's)
Boulder Statement mod SB3 with Boulder PS
VenHaus interconnects
HT Pro 9 SCs
ACI Sapphires

This is my system in my room with the exception of the speakers (my normal setup is Dynaudio Contour 3.3's)

Quite a nice system and something that has detail, imaging, warmth, and a sense of ease that will let you listen all day and night with no fatigue.

Anyway, I still love ya too  ;)

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 10:33:37 AM »
Ordinarily, I'd say yes, that makes perfect sense.  Here . . . not so much.  The thing is that SP Tech speakers are universally regarded as The Best in The World.  The normal rules of "different strokes" don't apply - everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes.


I don't think I would go that far.....

I know a few folks who have had them and or spent time with them and they didn't do much for them. To say that they are the best in the world is a stretch unless you have heard every speaker made today and it's also a stretch to say "everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes". If that was the case this thread would not exist and Ken would not be here asking about Daedalus.

I would put my custom built RAW Acoustics HT3's or bpape's Dynaudio Contour 3.3 (nice speakers by the way!  :D) up against them in a heartbeat simply because I know that some would prefer the sound of the Timepieces and some would prefer the 3.3's and others the HT3's. At the end of the day It comes down to personal taste and what each person is looking for. I don't think there is a speaker that exists that can make the claim "it's so good everybody will love it"!

miklorsmith

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Re: Daedalus Speakers
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 10:36:50 AM »
I was kidding.