AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: tmazz on May 18, 2012, 10:46:36 PM

Title: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: tmazz on May 18, 2012, 10:46:36 PM
Well guys I have been dreadfully behind on my posting (very busy with personal issues (in a good way) and then I had a computer meltdown and had to build a new PC).

So while all this was going on I had the opportunity to hear the new EE DAC Plus both with the upgraded 2107/627 and the Dexa discrete op-amps.

First I got the 2107 version and I have to say that this was easily the best DAC I have ever heard in my system (although I must admit I have never had any of the $4-5K DACs in my mancave).
This was the closest to analog sound that I had ever heard. Was it just as good as my VPI 19/SME IV/ Sumiko Blackbird combo, no. But for the first time the vinyl was not the immediate and obvious winner. I have the 30th Anniversary DSOTM release on both Vinyl and SACS Hybrid so I compared the two and while the vinyl was better, you had to sit down  in the chair and really listen to hear the differences. With every other DAC I ever had in the system you could drop the needle on the LP and standing off to the side next to the TT you would immediately hear am obvious difference, without even parking yourself in the sweet spot. With the EE you had to not only sit in the sweet spot, but also actively listen to the audiophile type characteristics of the sound to hear the differences. They were there if you listened, but they didn't jump out and hit you in the face. And if you didn't have an audiophile trained ear you probably would miss most of them.

I was very impressed with this DAC, that is until Bill shipped me the Dexa equipped version to audition. I put it on and all I have to say is wow. It just takes the DAC plus to a whole different level.smoother better imaging better detail and even more relaxed. The first thing I played was the "Our Love is Here to Stay" cut from the Jacintha Here's to Ben XRCD. The thing that I immediately noticed was that with the echo return on her vocal seemed to have a dimensionality on it that was much more defined and more like what one would expect to hear in a real acoustic environment.

For the extra amount that the Dexas add to the price I think they are well worth the additional investment. A significant SQ improvement for what is not a big incremental cost.

And BTW I did my auditioning using one of Pete's Triode Wire Labs 10 Plus power cords. This cord play very well with the unit and I highly recommend that anyone with an EE DAC should give one a try.
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: StereoNut on May 19, 2012, 05:36:17 AM
Nice!!! :thumb:
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: mfsoa on May 19, 2012, 07:32:05 AM
So this is the tour unit you have?

I'd very much like to get on the list if possible as I still haven't replaced my original EE dac yet.

Might save some $$ and go with a DacIt but would love to hear them both in my system before I decide.

Thanks for the review!

-Mike 
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Bill O'Connell on May 19, 2012, 07:43:21 AM
I believe Triode Pete has the DAC PLUS with Dexa's at the moment. If you contact him I think you would be next in line.
 After you Mike I believe the tour will end.
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: machinehead on May 19, 2012, 08:53:52 AM
Bill,
I think there are a couple more in between. Me for one, then it is going to Andys.
M
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Vapor1 on May 19, 2012, 11:30:46 AM
What's the 2107/627 designate?  Is that an opamp? 

I have the DAC Plus, lived with it for quite awhile in stock form ... then by removing the tube from the circuit.  And now with DEXA's in all 4 positions.  I have to say it's within a hair of as good as it gets with analog conversion ... and I do have a $5000 DAC in my mancave, the BMC DAC1.  In stock form there were a few nits to pick, it could sound a tad etched at times and had an overall lean, very focused and defined, but lean presentation.  Removing the tube from the circuit brought a bigger soundstage and a bit of smoothness, a nice step.  But  the DEXA's really added the refinement I was looking for, as well as a much fuller bottom couple octaves.  Stand up bass and deep male vocals have significantly more weight and heft with the DEXA's ... and overall it feels more effortless and relaxed. 

I still have the BMC DAC as my primary because of the way it integrated with the BMC amp, but just DAC vs. DAC the EE really makes a strong showing. 
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: StereoNut on May 19, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
Bill,
I think there are a couple more in between. Me for one, then it is going to Andys.
M

Me too! :-)  Last I talked to Tom, it was being auditioned by someone in Bellmore/Merrick...???

SN
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: mfsoa on May 19, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
Well as long as I'm in there somewhere!

Mike interested to hear about v. the NAD!


-Mike
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Bill O'Connell on May 19, 2012, 09:19:55 PM
SN/Bill, Forgot about ya,as the guy in Bellmore dropped it off at Pete's but I believe you are next as the guy who picked it up from Tom,dropped it off at Pete's place.
 You guys seem to know more about who receives it next so keep me in the loop where it lands.

 Thanks,
 Bill
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: StereoNut on May 19, 2012, 09:22:12 PM
Well as long as I'm in there somewhere!
-Mike

+1 :thumb:
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: djdube525 on May 20, 2012, 03:26:40 AM
What's the 2107/627 designate?  Is that an opamp?  

Yes... The are both op-amps...

For those who like to geek out... some links to datasheets...
Burr Brown OPA2107 (http://www.ti.com/product/opa2107)
Burr Brown OPA627 (http://www.ti.com/product/opa627)
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: richidoo on May 20, 2012, 06:14:43 AM
Sources
OPA627 (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA627AP/?qs=wgAEGBTxy7nJLIm4BnAxxkXJQx3diYHCuYozd%2fkK%2fp8%3d) $25ea
OPA2107 (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA2107APG4/?qs=pJP364FAHqRQeZq1BOugIFdxg2S193CfrvCKprAphqY%3d) $15ea
DEXA (http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=55) $81ea
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Triode Pete on May 20, 2012, 06:36:31 AM
SN/Bill, Forgot about ya,as the guy in Bellmore dropped it off at Pete's but I believe you are next as the guy who picked it up from Tom,dropped it off at Pete's place.
 You guys seem to know more about who receives it next so keep me in the loop where it lands.

 Thanks,
 Bill

I have the unit right now... it's very special  :thumb: I'll post my thoughts a little later after I give it additional listening time.

Here's who on the waiting tour list (that I'm aware of)...

StereoNut
machinehead
drewshifi
mfsoa

Cheers,
Pete

Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Triode Pete on May 23, 2012, 06:45:08 PM
This EE DAC Plus with the Dexa Discrete op-amps is excellent and IMHO, better, to my ears, than the regular DAC Plus (which is no slouch).

The main difference is the upper midrange & extension of the highs... effortless & airy... decay is excellent for digital (one of my main criticisms for digital... SACD helped solve this issue but this DAC is just as good on Redbook). The bass remains the same to my recollection... tight & authoritative...

For the asking price with the Dexas, a superb bargain...

Who's next on the list... BTW, no hurry on my part...
StereoNut
machinehead
drewshifi
mfsoa
any other takers?

Thanks,
Pete
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: shadowlight on May 23, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
This EE DAC Plus with the Dexa Discrete op-amps is excellent and IMHO, better, to my ears, than the regular DAC Plus (which is no slouch).

The main difference is the upper midrange & extension of the highs... effortless & airy... decay is excellent for digital (one of my main criticisms for digital... SACD helped solve this issue but this DAC is just as good on Redbook). The bass remains the same to my recollection... tight & authoritative...

For the asking price with the Dexas, a superb bargain...

Who's next on the list... BTW, no hurry on my part...
StereoNut
machinehead
drewshifi
mfsoa
any other takers?

Thanks,
Pete

Please add me to the list.  Really would like to have around a few days before and after the Zu tour date (July 7th) if possible
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: machinehead on May 24, 2012, 06:13:30 AM
I thought I was next? I can pick it up on the way home?
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: mfsoa on May 24, 2012, 02:48:36 PM
Quote
Zu tour date (July 7th)

Maybe it'll work out that I can hand-deliver...
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Triode Pete on May 24, 2012, 02:51:11 PM
machinehead has the DAC now...

I should also point out that the DAC performed flawlessly (as expected) with my Black Cat Morpheus true 75 ohm cable...

Pete
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: machinehead on May 24, 2012, 07:47:24 PM
Wow... Nice Dac. Listening to some Thelonius monk. Much more relaxed sound than the Nad M51. So much air up top really sweet.. Open sounding to. Plays behind the speakers almost and really wide stage.
Impressed.
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Bill O'Connell on May 24, 2012, 08:04:01 PM
The bigger question, does anybody want to buy one?  :)
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: rollo on May 25, 2012, 07:16:46 AM
The bigger question, does anybody want to buy one?  :)

  Yes Bill the $64,000 question. You have a fine product priced fairly. C'mon guys make the plunge.


charles
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: drews_hifi on May 25, 2012, 09:37:59 AM
I would like another crack at it.

Thanks,
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: etcarroll on May 25, 2012, 10:12:40 AM
Pete, is that the original Veloce or newer Silverstar?

machinehead has the DAC now...

I should also point out that the DAC performed flawlessly (as expected) with my Black Cat Morpheus true 75 ohm cable...

Pete
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: machinehead on May 29, 2012, 04:17:06 PM
Mr stereo nut, Andy has the Dac now! It is so close you can taste it!

At first I was blown away by the dexa discretes, well it's the only way I've heard the EE besides the original version. 
It's about the top and bottom.  There is tons of air and nice extension up top. Clarity was great and the sound was very clean. Bass was strong and powerful. One thing I noticed, or at least I thought is that my stereo played much louder, or maybe I was willing to turn it up. ;)

The only issue I had was that I felt the mids were recessed, or maybe overpowered by all the things happening up top. Leading edge was very pronounced, but never bright.

I found my toes tapping and want to thank Bill for his generosity in allowing his product to make the rounds!
Thanks
M
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Triode Pete on May 29, 2012, 04:45:31 PM
Pete, is that the original Veloce or newer Silverstar?

machinehead has the DAC now...

I should also point out that the DAC performed flawlessly (as expected) with my Black Cat Morpheus true 75 ohm cable...

Pete

Gene - the original Veloce... very nice!
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: rpf on May 29, 2012, 05:25:30 PM
Bill (Stereonut) you have a PM.

Rob
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: drews_hifi on June 13, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
I had the EE DAC in house again for a few days and I'd like to thank Bill for the chance at another listen.

First:  The highs in the stock EE dac are rolled off- I noted that in the first audition and the difference between the stock op amp and Dexa’s up top is obvious.  With the Dexas, the highs are back.  Cymbals, strings, voices all have lots of air around them. 

The mids I found near perfect as well, with more texture and information than I’ve heard before.

But, the bottom octaves, already strong with the stock op amps, are now overdone.  I use separate amps for my woofers and sub, controlled through a digital EQ.  For the DAC Plus, I lowered the overall bass level (200Hz down) by 2db- 3db (almost half power).  Even then, bass fundamentals were too prominent, masking pitch definition. 


Examples:
Bolero (Reference Recordings), the room shook with bass drum whacks, strings and brass sounded super.  Everything was just about perfect with bass reduced -1db.

On Patricia Barber’s Cafe Blue- The EE DAC Plus did a good job of bringing the drum kit into my room.  Also, the best piano sound I have heard.  Bass lacked definition, set at -3db.

Bruce Cockburn- Clarity of Night- the Vibes never sounded realistic on my system before.  This was a revelation.  Vocals, guitar, drums, all super.  Bass reduced -2db, but could still ask for better pitch definition. 

I'd guess that frequency response with the EE DAC and either op amp is not flat- some top end roll off with the originals, and there's probably a bump around 50-100Hz with the Dexas.  With a bit of effort, I could probably eq the bass to my liking, but did not have the chance to try before sending the DAC back on tour.

Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: mfsoa on June 28, 2012, 06:05:35 PM
OK my turn-

EE Minimax Plus with Dexa discrete op-amps:

For the past awhile my listening has been getting less and less critical and more about just enjoying the music (and esp. new music), so I don't have much to say about the nth degree of stage depth or separation between the 2nd and 3d cellos etc.

In comparison to my previous dac (original EE, with numerous different op-amps) I find the Plus to be a significant step up in all areas. Very non-fatiguing yet still detailed and delicate when asked.

Some have commented that the bass is a bit too much, but not for my tastes. This is what my Cherry Plus stereo amp does best - churn out subterranean bass with control and limitless ease. I find the EE dac bass to be excellent - detailed, nuanced with great pitch definition. I heard melody lines in the bass that just seemed to matter more to the overall musical passage than I remember.

About the bass balance thing - Every CD player or dac I've seen measured for the past like 20 years has been ruler flat in the bass, and we've all heard players that were either weak-kneed or powerhouses down there, so I don't know where that difference comes from. It'd be interesting to see measurements of this dac w/ the Dexas to see if they really are adding something.


I have no complaints w/ the mids or highs, although I could see how the powerful bass, if you aren't used to it or is not your cup of tea, could seem to make the midrange slightly recessed. I'd just call it smooth and anyway who wants digital midrange that is overdone/too present, anyway? Not me...

I haven't pulled the tube yet (hope it's OK with Bill since it's on the safe side of "Won't void the warranty"). Maybe tonight but with the damn (but blessed) AC running it kinda ruins critical sessions.

Do I want one?  I had always planned on getting this same version, w/ the Dexas, to replace my original, and hearing this unit has confirmed this belief. But alas some big car repairs (anyone smitten with an older E46 BMW can tell ya' - Oh, but how it handled on the Blue Ridge Parkway last weekend...) have put me in a little pinch. But we'll see...
The $$ I got for the original has somehow been absorbed back into the general coffers (something about "Audio Statute of Limitations"  :rofl:)

Still do want, though.

Thanks Bill for the generous tour. I've had the unit for a few weeks and plan on bringing it to Deepak's for the Zu Party on the 7th. Hope that's OK with everyone.

-How to sum up. It's a great dac that allows you to listen to the music and not the gear. Corny and overused yes, but true IMO.

Oh - all impressions are of the SS output - Still like the increased info that comes through - less tube editorializing.

-Mike
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: satfrat on June 28, 2012, 06:46:06 PM
So you prefer the SS over the tube output Mike? Any comparison thoughts? Thanks.

Cheers,
Robin
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: NickS on June 28, 2012, 06:48:40 PM
OK my turn-

EE Minimax Plus with Dexa discrete op-amps:


Mike,

What were you using for a digital source for the EE DAC Plus?
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: Triode Pete on June 29, 2012, 09:38:56 AM
OK my turn-

EE Minimax Plus with Dexa discrete op-amps:

For the past awhile my listening has been getting less and less critical and more about just enjoying the music (and esp. new music), so I don't have much to say about the nth degree of stage depth or separation between the 2nd and 3d cellos etc.

In comparison to my previous dac (original EE, with numerous different op-amps) I find the Plus to be a significant step up in all areas. Very non-fatiguing yet still detailed and delicate when asked.

Some have commented that the bass is a bit too much, but not for my tastes. This is what my Cherry Plus stereo amp does best - churn out subterranean bass with control and limitless ease. I find the EE dac bass to be excellent - detailed, nuanced with great pitch definition. I heard melody lines in the bass that just seemed to matter more to the overall musical passage than I remember.

About the bass balance thing - Every CD player or dac I've seen measured for the past like 20 years has been ruler flat in the bass, and we've all heard players that were either weak-kneed or powerhouses down there, so I don't know where that difference comes from. It'd be interesting to see measurements of this dac w/ the Dexas to see if they really are adding something.


I have no complaints w/ the mids or highs, although I could see how the powerful bass, if you aren't used to it or is not your cup of tea, could seem to make the midrange slightly recessed. I'd just call it smooth and anyway who wants digital midrange that is overdone/too present, anyway? Not me...

I haven't pulled the tube yet (hope it's OK with Bill since it's on the safe side of "Won't void the warranty"). Maybe tonight but with the damn (but blessed) AC running it kinda ruins critical sessions.

Do I want one?  I had always planned on getting this same version, w/ the Dexas, to replace my original, and hearing this unit has confirmed this belief. But alas some big car repairs (anyone smitten with an older E46 BMW can tell ya' - Oh, but how it handled on the Blue Ridge Parkway last weekend...) have put me in a little pinch. But we'll see...
The $$ I got for the original has somehow been absorbed back into the general coffers (something about "Audio Statute of Limitations"  :rofl:)

Still do want, though.

Thanks Bill for the generous tour. I've had the unit for a few weeks and plan on bringing it to Deepak's for the Zu Party on the 7th. Hope that's OK with everyone.

-How to sum up. It's a great dac that allows you to listen to the music and not the gear. Corny and overused yes, but true IMO.

Oh - all impressions are of the SS output - Still like the increased info that comes through - less tube editorializing.

-Mike

Nice review, Mike! I was so impressed with the unit that I purchased one (with the Dexa's) from Bill at Morningstar. May be bringing it to the Capital Audio Fest in Suite 347. Based on system synergy, some like the tube output, others prefer the SS output. I'll be rolling in a Brimar T-Series 6067 this weekend to stermine my preference... think I prefer the tube output...

Have a great weekend everyone... stay cool!
Pete
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: mfsoa on July 01, 2012, 05:06:51 AM
Digital source was stock Jerome pwr supply > stock Squeezebox Touch w/ Soundcheck mods (oxymoron I guess) >Black Cat Veloce digital cable that I can't even tell you without looking if it's into the RCA or BNC of the DAC.

After more critical listening to a variety of music I think I'd like to have a little more snap from the Dexa'd dac. More bite to the snare drum.

I'm not sure that the Dexas will be the best choice for everyone's system, after hearing what op-amp rolling did to my previous EE original dac (Want smoother and more luxurious? Add an OPA627; want more zing? Add LME 49710/20 (IIRC) etc.).

From what I've heard from others, Pete's system is dynamic as heck and so I can see the Dexa dac working perfectly for him. In my system I am usually trying to add some more life w/out getting a too aggressive sound - also my room is pretty dead so what my speakers put out is pretty much what I get. Sometimes the sound kinda gets "stuck" in my speakers - like I want it to sound like it's easier for the sound to jump out of them - not a problem Pete has on his million db sensitive horns 8).

Tubes vs SS, Robin?  I guess I'm biased, having liked the SS of my original so much more than the 3-4 tubes I tried in it. Probably explainable by my system description above. Problem is if I add too much spice to the system, some music gets a bit too aggressive and I'd rather have a few more cuts be too smooth than a few cuts be too aggressive. But I still want some jump factor too. Picky picky...

-Mike

Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: satfrat on July 01, 2012, 08:42:20 AM
I was curious what your take on the tube output was like in your system Mike. In my highly dynamic system, the tube ouput was a blessing, a gift oh my(stolen from Rollo :D). I'm sure Bill including his favorite Mullard tube had something to do with that. I really hated to part with the EE DAC+.  :duh

I remember your system as being laid back but I also haven't heard it with the Digital Amplifier Cherry which I'm sure was a gamechanger for you. Someday I'd like to take that journey back to the Pa. border town,,,,,,,

Cheers,
Robin
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: richidoo on July 05, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
The EE comes with TI 5532 opamps. On Semiconductor also makes a 5532 which is 90% as good as the original Signetics/Phillips according to Sol. Signetics are also available on Ebay for $4 ea.

TIs are pretty bad compared to the others, so the Ons at 1.30 each might be a cheaper option than dexa or fancier opamps. Get a chip remover tool also to make removal easier and safer.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/NE5532NG/?qs=8sOby8ZxZLGwDVAfpjm2QNUkBaxMhkNeLUnw9%2f1MZM0%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/NE5532NG/?qs=8sOby8ZxZLGwDVAfpjm2QNUkBaxMhkNeLUnw9%2f1MZM0%3d)
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: shadowlight on July 11, 2012, 06:00:37 PM
Is anyone else on the tour?  I have the dac right now and need to send it along to the next person.  If not, I will ship it back to Bill on Saturday.

Thanks
Title: Re: DAC PLUS with Dexa Discrete op-amp thread
Post by: shadowlight on July 20, 2012, 10:32:33 AM
Bill,

DAC shipped back to you.  Sent you a pm with tracking information.