Author Topic: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??  (Read 4209 times)

Offline rollo

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Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« on: November 06, 2014, 08:08:34 AM »
  Over the years this argument still festers. How does one know if the speaker is key ? Does not the amp make the difference ?
  What do you think ?


charles
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Offline BobM

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 09:26:13 AM »
Here's my decision tree.

The room is key
The speaker has to fit the room
The amp has to fit the speaker
The source end has to be musical
The preamp has to be transparent
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2014, 12:18:59 PM »
I have two viewpoints.

The first is that they are both required, can't use one without the other, so fuggedaboutit, buy them both and crack a cold one. They are equally important to the end result of hearing music. Buy the best of each that you can afford.

The second viewpoint is the question of quality, and the question of the sequential order of choosing parts of a system. OK so I have three viewpoints.

The second is about quality, which is I think what you're getting at Charles. I think the source is the most important because the source creates the life and the magic that every other component serves. The source is the center of the galaxy, the singularity, the throne of the infinite. The source is the thing that creates the signal, so it is most important.  You need a good source to make the music satisfying and meaningful. Source makes the music sound alive. It is the spark of life and the fire. It makes listening fun and desirable. It's a hobby, so source is king.

When building a system, a different importance is placed on each component than in a finished system where you are judging importance only on face-value performance. To minimize overall distortion, it is important to choose components in this order: room, speakers, amp, preamp, sources.  It is the reverse order of the magnitude of the distortion contribution. Cables, power conditioning, acoustic treatments, and your ebony footer cones and green markers fit in there somewhere too, but lower, because their benefit is more subtle in distortion terms. From this perspective, speakers are the most important part of the system proper (which excludes the room,) or maybe acoustic treatment.

OK I have 4 viewpoints. I've said this one many times before, but I will repeat it just to annoy as many people as possible. When we all were young and naive and first falling in love with music and life we didn't care about the sound equipment. We fell in love with music because of the notes, lyrics, beat, and whatever girl happens to be of interest at the moment. I think we come to hifi trying to rediscover those feelings we had about music in early teens. I fell in love with music with a Sharp all-in-one radio/record changer/8 track, with dynamic cartridge and single paper driver speakers connected by RCA jack with 6 feet of 22 gage zip wire. By the time I had decent gear a few years later I was already fully committed to the listening lifestyle. So from that perspective, none of it matters as long as the notes and lyrics and beat make it to my ears. I can imagine what's missing, and I can find context and relevance of the music within the now moment of real life. That is something kids can do, but adults have lost the ability to live in the now and relate everything to themselves living in the moment. Music sounds sweeter in the eternal now, so sweet that the gear doesn't matter. Adults think the gear and SQ is important, as a separate but related hobby to music listening and the hifi industry is born.

The media disc is a part of the physical system, is it not more important than the rest? What makes the disc so valuable? The non-physical artistic creation it holds. We do consider the quality of the pressing, or the tone of the mastering job, so media is an important part of the hifi equation, one step closer to the ultimate source of music appearing inside the musicians head.

My 5th viewpoint is that of a DIY speaker builder, speakers are the most important part of the system. Without speakers to build what would I do all day? Build amps? Forget that!

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 02:56:50 PM »
Speakers don't mean shit !!
Find a good deal on Amazon, order them without hearing what they sound like, and don't spend over $75/pr.

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2014, 08:18:27 PM »
Rich,  I have to echo your sentiment (4th viewpoint?) that we're all striving to recreate emotional, music-laden memories from our past.  There are times, late at night, with the lights out, the music up, the soft glow of tubes lighting the room and a glass of good bourbon in hand that ... nah, still not even close  :rofl:  Well maybe by the 3rd glass.

But screw speakers and front-ends.  Get out and listen to live music.  Do it with good friends, with loved ones, or go out prepared to make new friends.  Experience music in the wild and make new memories because the event you'll try to recreate years later won't be about the music, but what you were doing and who you were doing it with when you heard the music.

Ah, but I digress.  What about the front to frontend?  And maybe that's in part what Rich is referring to as the singularity... the quality of the recording itself.  A well recorded and mastered album trumps all and outlasts most of our equipment investments.  I have vinyl I still listen to that is certainly older than any equipment I own.

But the hardware itself?  It's all ear & eye candy - go out and find what sounds great (in your room to your ears), gets your toes tapping and heart pumping.  Do your homework, talk to your audio-buddies, build it, buy it, barter for it, but don't get caught in analysis paralysis because there will always be something a bit better out there.   

Speakers vs frontends?  Chickens and eggs.

Now where did I put my glass?


Offline sleepyguy24

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 06:51:26 AM »
This is really like the chicken and the egg syndrome. I talked to my godfather about the importance of speakers or amps and he always was particular about speakers and their designs. He loves his Klipsch Horns and various vintage Tannoy speakers. When I asked him about amps he had his criteria he would look for and that was it. he emphasized speakers more.

My uncles on the other hand who have Nelson Pass Threshold amps, and vintage McIntosh amps were more concerned about clean and strong power and didn't care as much about the speakers. Once they got their power amps and sources straight they moved onto speakers. They then rotated various speakers in and out of their systems.

Offline Carlman

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 12:12:39 PM »
I'm definitely in the speakers first camp.  If you like the overall sound of speakers, improving the stuff before it will only make them sound more like themselves... And you'll tailor the sound to the most expensive part of the system.

Kind of like doing a room... Buy the rug first, then paint the walls... After that, curtains/furniture/etc. all have to be balanced into the equation.   I like Bob's steps above.

There are exceptions to anything.. but I don't know of any for whether to buy a source or speakers first.  It's speakers.  Audition them on the best possible source gear before you buy.  None of this is done in a vacuum.. You've heard music before.. other systems, live music...

I've tailored my system around my speakers for a long time... and it's worked well for me.  Once I'm unsatisfied by some aspect of my speakers, I look for something new.  I'm at the point where I have a hard time hearing anything I like overall more than what I have.  I want seamless mids and highs with detail and imaging with detailed bass that also has some impact.  Right now I have most of what I want.

I will tell you that our local engineer, Sol, made 1 minor change to my preamp that made a serious improvement in the bass and mid-bass... And now I want a speaker that can deliver even more in that area.  But I don't want to lose what I have in the upper mids.  The Revel F208's were what I like in the bottom but mids and highs weren't in the same league as the Piega's.

So, I could see how upstream changes can make you think about changing speakers... but.. I would always recommend starting with speakers.

I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline Brap

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Re: Speaker or Frontend ? Which is More important ??
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 02:38:13 PM »
Good thread. I firmly believe, now that we are all more seasoned (ears and age) that speaker and room go hand in hand. Nice seminar by Jeff Merkel really pointed that out. However, I fell in love with Klipsch Fortes 28 years ago and still have them.  Just of recent am I purchasing a new pair of SDFR speakers with a radian tweet for the high end since I heard these and they blew me away. upgrading to better transparent pre-amps sure helps too especially with the warm glow of tubes.  But all said, room + speaker has my vote.
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