Three-way speaker idea gone awry.

[mresseguie]

Hi, all.

I got pretty excited by all the cool drivers coming out of SB Acoustics lately. In fact, I got so excited that I dreamed up a speaker design and approached someone who creates kits for folks like me with the design. My idea was to use the new 7.5" Satori woofers (either one or dual), the new 6.5" Satori midrange driver (or the 5"?), and the neodymium Satori tweeter. The idea kept everything in the same family.

 Well, after chatting for an hour, the kit guy suggested a couple other drivers. His changes resulted in this combination of drivers: 7.5" Satori, Morel MDM-55 mid dome, and a Scan-Speak Be dome (small frame neo version).

I must admit I feel a bit deflated. I do not know much about the science behind speaker design. I just have my imagination.

What do you guys think of the all Satori idea, and what do you think of the mixed idea? [Everyone is welcome to join the fray.] I'm hoping for a little feedback.

Thanks,

Michael

[_Scotty_]

Danny Richie has kits on his website that are well engineered with speakers that actually work together.
 http://gr-research.com/diykits.aspx
Rick Craig also has well designed kits on his websites.
http://www.selahaudio.com/kits/
You could purchase a kit from them and have the cabinet built to your specs in Taiwan.
 Unless someone(ie, experienced loudspeaker designer) spends the money on all of the Satori drivers you are interested in and builds prototypes with them, there is no way to know ahead of time if they sound good together in a loudspeaker.
 Unfortunately it is hard to predict the sonic outcome beforehand even with computer simulations.
Basically it's a rather expensive crapshoot.
DIYers frequently have a lot of loudspeakers laying round that didn't quite work out in one way or another.
Sorry I can't be more optimistic about the project.
Scotty

[jimbones]

i am partial to sb drivers, although I would use the 5 inch mid.
I don't like dome midranges and have red a lot of negative things about them. That is why you don't see a lot of them.

[richidoo]

Yup, you need an expert to advise you.  You have a strong attraction to a complex vision. You can get there with guidance.

I like my Satoris, as you know, but I like them as part of kairos. The unique crossover is equally responsible for my enjoyment.

An all-Satori speaker can be done, of course. With all the new drivers there are plenty of combinations possible.

I think a combination of MR16P4 + TW29RB + a pair of MW19P-8 or the new neo version of these 7.5" in parallel for bass might work pretty well. You can propose something like this to a good designer and see if it's realistic, and whether they can help you realize it.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Just ask the loudspeaker designer to use the drivers that you want for your speaker design.  No need to be disappointed. I don't know that much about SB Acoustic drivers and there is not point in making a comment about the combination.

Over the years I've been partial to focal, accuton and seas drivers. 

Cheers Rod

[mresseguie]

Thanks, everyone.

I have had many months to ponder speakers and each time a new driver is released, I spend another umpteen hours fantasizing about this or that combination. I've researched just about every kit and non-kit out there - including kits and retail speakers in Taiwan.

It's only recently that I have seriously considered 3-way designs. Previously, most of my interest had been in finding a killer two-way design that can be filled out with one or two subs. Both the Kairos and Spiritwinds are attractive. [Actually, since I already own a pair of Adelphos, I've shied away from  the Kairos because of their similarity.] I'm keeping my Adelphos in the States. If I had gobs of money, I'd just 'settle' for Exotica speakers, but I cannot plunk $6k down plus ship them to Taiwan and deal with 21% import duty on top of everything.

Richie,

Have you heard the Adelphos? How do they compare to your suped-up Kairos? How big an impact do your super-XOs have on what your Kairos give you?

Perhaps I'm holding out for an impossible dream? Sigh. Dunno. I want this next pair of speakers to last 'forever' in Taiwan. [I know. I know. There is no forever pair of speakers.]

Oh, the mystery designer in the States is Rick of Selah Audio. I have not yet emailed him to express my reservations about the drivers he suggested. I'll tackle that in the next couple days. It's a holiday, ya know?

Michael

[richidoo]

Richie,

Have you heard the Adelphos? How do they compare to your suped-up Kairos? How big an impact do your super-XOs have on what your Kairos give you?

Not heard Adelphos. To accommodate rectangular box it has a more typical crossover. The Kairos crossover and slanted baffle makes a pseudo linear phase response which is a big part of the magic and a very rare thing among speaker designs. It's like a single driver speaker without the distortion and with good freq extension and dynamics.

I found a obvious improvement in refinement with the upgraded crossover, compared to the basic kit parts. I would recommend using air core coils and quality caps if your designer can accommodate it. But magnetic core coils can be the better choice when high inductance value is needed on a budget. Unfortunately, North Creek Audio is totally out of business now, so nobody is selling super large gage coils anymore. FO

Perhaps I'm holding out for an impossible dream? Sigh. Dunno. I want this next pair of speakers to last 'forever' in Taiwan. [I know. I know. There is no forever pair of speakers.]

Just remember, "It's all about the music."   Speakers (and all audio gear) are just the messenger.

[jessearias]

I have built a lot of homemade speakers and the thing I found was that you mix and match the drivers to your application. Using all the same manufacturer helps with compatibility issues, but you learn from experience what stuff works well together and what doesn't.

The key to the whole mix is in the crossover.  Even the best drivers can sound like crap if it isn't crossed right.

Cabinet design is important to. Volume, bracing, porting and baffling can make or break even the best drivers.

[richidoo]

You could try Kairos inexpensively by just building box and crossover. It will sound different. For me it is a forever design, although I will keep messing with it, like 3 way, more sensitivity etc. The concept is excellent.

[mresseguie]

Rich,

I just went through your Kairos build thread again - must be my fourth time.

I see you used Jantzen caps. What do they do for your music differently from what Mundorf Supremes or Deuland caps might do? Is this splitting hairs?

Mark at Meniscus seems to favor Litz inductors over foil yet I see most hi-end XOs use copper foil inductors. Any thoughts?

I noticed, perhaps two months ago, that kit prices on the Adelphos and Kairos dropped approximately $200 from when you and I bought our kits. This encourages me to consider adding that money back in with better XO components.

Lastly, I'm well aware I suffer from a "candy store" syndrome. There are so many excellent designs that are so affordable to choose from that I get stuck. If I buy this one, I'll miss out on that one. 

Thanks for being patient with me.

 

[hogg]

Thanks, everyone.

I have had many months to ponder speakers and each time a new driver is released, I spend another umpteen hours fantasizing about this or that combination. I've researched just about every kit and non-kit out there - including kits and retail speakers in Taiwan.

Here's a speaker to peak your fantasies:

[richidoo]

Yeah Jim, those are the speakers I want.   

I see you used Jantzen caps. What do they do for your music differently from what Mundorf Supremes or Deuland caps might do? Is this splitting hairs?

Very good sound quality for relatively low price. Always in stock at PE, free shipping. I don't notice any coloration or listening distraction from them. They do not fatigue me on long listening. Treble is natural but retains edge. All around nice cap. Their popularity has grown with various cap roundups praising them and word of mouth. They're not "audiophile" detailed like Mundorf Silver and they're cheaper than Mundorf and Duelund. 4 Duelund caps would cost more than the speakers, although I'm sure they are worth it if I wanted the ultimate in non-audiophile type caps.

Mark at Meniscus seems to favor Litz inductors over foil yet I see most hi-end XOs use copper foil inductors. Any thoughts?

Foil coils are boutique parts. Most mfgs just use plain aircore coils, or magnetic core. Most opinions I have read say there is no significant difference. Maybe high frequencies would be happier going through foil conductor because there's more surface area per gage. Litz is twisted insulated wires to make a cable that is wound into a coil. My engineer friend Sol once opined that it should have a positive effect in theory, that was before he knew Solen actually made them. I don't remember what the benefit actually was. I'm more than happy with Meniscus 14ga aircore coils, but the litz would be fine too. What really matters is the low DCR and the air core. Beware boutique parts, ymmv.  The steel lam is half the DCR of the 14ga air core, so they both have advantages.

I noticed, perhaps two months ago, that kit prices on the Adelphos and Kairos dropped approximately $200 from when you and I bought our kits. This encourages me to consider adding that money back in with better XO components.

Definitely upgrade the Solen caps, and maybe do the Litz coils.

[jimbones]

I have built a lot of homemade speakers and the thing I found was that you mix and match the drivers to your application. Using all the same manufacturer helps with compatibility issues, but you learn from experience what stuff works well together and what doesn't.

The key to the whole mix is in the crossover.  Even the best drivers can sound like crap if it isn't crossed right.

Cabinet design is important to. Volume, bracing, porting and baffling can make or break even the best drivers.

Bingo, very well said. I have learned that until you model it you just don't know what you are going to get.

[Rocket]

Hi Rich,

I have no experience with Meniscus Audio and just wondering whether the speaker kit designs are really good?  I had a bad experience with Zalytron as the crossover design was awful and I totally wasted my money.

Cheers Rod

[richidoo]

Hi Rich,

I have no experience with Meniscus Audio and just wondering whether the speaker kit designs are really good?  I had a bad experience with Zalytron as the crossover design was awful and I totally wasted my money.

Cheers Rod

Hi Rod! How's it going down under?

Yeah I've had great experience with Meniscus. I bought the Kairos kit, then some 11" woofers they had on 1/2 price sale, then some inductors. They put candy in every order! Good quality parts, good prices, fast service. They seem to really try to make me happy with follow up, asking about my satisfaction on each order, etc. I have emailed with the owner on a couple occasions, he is responsive and friendly, seems like a smart guy.

I have only tried their Kairos kit, which is designed by Jeff Bagby. Bagby is getting pretty famous now for about a dozen DIY kits available from various sellers. I have heard 2 of his designs and read his papers and posts and I agree with his design philosophy. I would recommend any Bagby kit design as a great first step for fine tuning to your own taste. He designs with simplicity in mind, so the music survives and they are fun to listen. He has said in the past that the kairos is his favorite design.

Meniscus has other kits, so I guess they were designed in house. I don't know what those sound like.