Author Topic: Big Room or Small Room is better?  (Read 11929 times)

Offline richidoo

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Big Room or Small Room is better?
« on: December 05, 2014, 03:08:05 PM »
I know the accepted knowledge (belief) is that a big room is better for an audio system than a small room. But I keep getting attracted to the benefits of a smaller room and want to discuss it with you.

Big room makes reflections take longer to reachj your ear, thus interfering less with the direct radiating sound in your mind. If there's enough time gap between the direct sound from the speaker and the first reflection then we can filter out the reflections in the mind. Less listening fatigue, more relaxed feeling.

Small room reflections would hit the ear too soon. But small room has much less surface wall area, so it can be more easily treated to attenuate wall reflections. You could make an anechoic chamber relatively inexpensively, or allow enough room reflection to taste. Difficult to damp a big room effectively juggling WAF and budget.

Small room is usually a spare bedroom or other space that can be completely claimed and owned in every aspect by the audiophile. Acoustic treatments won't meet with the usual decorator's judgement drivel.

Small room has a locking door, the space is private, no disturbance during deep listening trance.

Bass modes worse in a small room? Hmmm, not sure about that. Bass modes exist in every room with reflective surfaces. Low bass moves through traditional stick and drywall walls whether the room is big or small. Mid bass will start to bounce around. Smaller room will create more modes up higher where they are easy to kill, but low bass modes will not be reflecting, they will just be pressurizing, right? I mean wavelengths larger than the room dimensions. Those modes which are very difficult to cure with absorption will not be modes. Is this correct or wrong? Same reason a subwoofer box doesn't need bracing, let it swell, the wavelengths inside it never small enough to reflect and disturb cone motion. Speed of sound and all that jazz. Where's my Floyd Toole book?

Smaller room can place absorption strategically, at the exact location on the wall where it can kill a node where SPL is lowest and velocity is highest at a given frequency. Maybe that's 6 places for 2 speakers. In a huge room it might be 40 places at the same freq, so wall treatments are generally ineffective because there is rarely enough treatment applied or acceptable.

A small room can better deal with bass FR using swarm technique, or distributed subs. Smaller subs playing with less power give the same FR due to cabin effect at LF.

Small rooms can be more easily heated and cooled, so it can be more comfortable in there, less drafty. Class A amps in a small room could be a problem in summer.

Smaller speakers can be used, needing less power. Budget tilts away from speakers amps and treatment towards source and content.

Big rooms allow friends to come share the music with you, audiophiles, dance parties and kids. Listening in a common space keeps you in the family activities. How do you value privacy vs belonging? How do those other peoples' presence affect what you listen to? Would you still listen to those modern harpsichord sonatas? Up loud? Do you yell at the stereo like me when something really good happens, or really bad? Privacy of a small room. Ahhhhhh...

A small room makes it easier to control the spread of noise throughout the house. Large common areas can't be closed off, sound goes everywhere, with late night requests to turn it down. Small room playing is satisfying with lower volume, door is closed. Even isolation can be used in small room if necessary.

What else? 

Is your listening room big or small? Shared or private? Do you like it, what would you change?

Offline jimbones

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 03:44:23 PM »
nice write up. How about dealing with a finished basement? I have heard that is quite different from a regular room.
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Offline pumpkinman

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 03:45:03 PM »
Is your listening room big or small? Shared or private? Do you like it, what would you change?

Howdy Rich,

Am I an audiophile ?? I do not consider my self an audiophile.

Am I a nut you bet'cha.  :shock:

My room is small approx 10.5 x 10.5 that I built in my basement and has only one very small window to allow some natural light. I have some room treatments and yes they helped big time. Yes the door does have a lock and to the best of my knowledge my wife has only stepped in there once to help me bring in a chair. She has no desire to go in and I have no desire to let her in.  :rofl: :rofl:  I had no idea that when I built this room that a sqaure room for audio was a no-no. Do I like that it is a cozy space ?? In a word yes. When etcarroll stopped by he said that he understood the appeal. Now after all that and finding out just last night that my house will not be sucked up by the widening Rt. 80 (eminent domain) I plan on building a slightly larger room in the very near future. It would be approx. 12 X 14. The now audio room will be an office of sorts. (a private place for my computer). I really don't need an office.
Rich I don't know if you remember but I do have a problem picking up the local radio station thru my phono stage or cartridge. When I build the next room I plan on attaching chicken wire to the walls and ceilings and then grounding the whole deal to the water pipe coming in from the street. I was told that this would act as a Faraday cage and help stamp out the radio station interference.






I like the amber bulbs that give off a warm glow. It helps me to relax when I listen.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:48:03 PM by pumpkinman »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 08:21:27 PM »
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying

I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.

Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.

I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix.  pm
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 09:07:42 PM by richidoo »

Offline tmazz

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 09:02:22 PM »
I like the amber bulbs that give off a warm glow. It helps me to relax when I listen.

If you like amber bulbs you should look into Himalayan Salt lamps. Not only do they provide a nice relaxing amber glow, they also throw off lots of ions which have been touted by different people to improve you health, your mood and even the sound of your system. (A few years ago ion generators were all the rage among tweakers for audio system improvements.) I have had them for years and cannot really support or deny any of the claims, I simply like the way they look and the way they light the room for late night listening sessions (which is something I can say I am an expert at.  :lol: )

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Offline pumpkinman

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 09:23:04 PM »
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying

I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.

Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.

I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix.  pm

I built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 09:58:11 PM »
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying

I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.

Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.

I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix.  pm

I am having a problem with bass. I have corner bass traps which help and I have Roxul between the joists. Not sure hat else I should do. Probably have to buy more bass traps $$$$$
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2014, 07:38:08 AM »
I built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.

I assumed some of your room walls were concrete cuz its in the basement.

Jim, ime broadband treatments can only get so far. If problems persist then you need targeted treatments. Either tuned absorbers or broadband absorbers placed in specific places on walls where the offending wavelength is at minimum SPL (and maximum velocity.) The general prescription of more bass traps randomly placed frustrates many people. Do you have measurement setup?

Offline jimbones

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2014, 07:46:31 AM »
I built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.

I assumed some of your room walls were concrete cuz its in the basement.

Jim, ime broadband treatments can only get so far. If problems persist then you need targeted treatments. Either tuned absorbers or broadband absorbers placed in specific places on walls where the offending wavelength is at minimum SPL (and maximum velocity.) The general prescription of more bass traps randomly placed frustrates many people. Do you have measurement setup?

I have the Omnimic V2 which I believe would enable me to make measurements.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2014, 08:53:56 AM »
Omnimic is a good one. Seems like everyone is using that now.

Do a scan on your room at the sweet spot to find out what freqs are peaking at that location. Do each speaker separately, two graphs. They might both cause the same nodes, but since they are in different positions the location of their nodes could be different. But if the room shape focuses a node at a spot then any source position will trigger it.

Once you know the freq, use wavelength converter to see if room dimensions are the cause. Then you know what walls to focus on.
http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm

Also, plug your major room dimensions into this
http://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm
to see if your measured bass modes conform to the predicted frequencies. That will further confirm which room dimension is the problem. Ceiling height is the most common, because despite room shape the whole room is usually the same height, larger area of same dimension. And typical ceiling heights fall in the sweetspot for creating problem modes. 8 feet = 140Hz. There are some nodes that reflect angularly through the room, not slapping across parallel walls, so modecalc doesns't predict everything. But usually those oblique reflections are not as strong.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-roommodes.htm

Offline jimbones

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2014, 01:11:02 PM »
My room is an odd shape. I think I have a good layout done is visio and as a .jpg I can post.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2014, 01:30:33 PM »
Cool. Start a new thread in acoustics ward?  :D Special for you!

Offline rollo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 06:33:20 AM »
   Room dimensions big or small would benefit from a ratio. A good start is the cardas Golden ratio. Exact or close will yield better acoustics.
    With regard to WAF and existing rooms we have variables to deal with. Family room or living room presents issues. Furniture, speaker placement treatment for such. The beat goes on.
     Granted a larger room would require treatment however if the ratios are right less will be needed.
     DSP has become our friend lately. Well a part time friend. For the entire audio spectrum I have yet to hear a DSP room correction device that did not sound Hi Fi. For bass though a blessing from heaven. The Berhinger or DBX units are key to tight defined explosive bass.
     Speaker selection for said room is critical to getting the best from a particular room. We do not want to put dual subs and say a large speaker in a 10 x12 room. Exception would be a Klipsh with a folded horn for low bass development. A good pair of monitors and a single sub to say 28Hz would do quite well.
      Small is good big is good all depends how it is handled. BTW my room is odd shaped approx 17x 20.


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Offline richidoo

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 07:54:12 AM »
Good advice there, thanks Charlie!

Offline tmazz

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Re: Big Room or Small Room is better?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2014, 08:38:30 AM »
One needs to realize that the room is a component of the system and just like any other componet need to be put into the synergy calculus. Although the biggest difference is that unlike other component, the room basically cannot be swapped out. It has to be taken as a given and your system built around it. No matter how good a pair of speakers sounds at a show or a dealer, theyneed to work well in the space you are going to use them in. And the restrictions that need to be put on them placement wise if they are being put in a common area of the house. This is one of the biggest downfalls to our hobby in the era of the new economy. In the old days you could build a good relationship with a local brick and mortar dealer and had the opportunity to brings home to audition in your own room. To me that service alone was worth the extra cost of buying form a local dealer. While some online dealers offer 30 day or so trial periods, for physically large units the shipping back and forth becomes very unwieldy. But the bottom line is that you can get good sound out of both large and small room, just not necessarily with the same gear.
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