Author Topic: The Squeezebox????  (Read 10085 times)

Bigfish8

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The Squeezebox????
« on: August 01, 2007, 04:48:08 PM »
Guys:

I believe some of you have been using modified Squeezeboxes (model 2 or 3) in your systems for some time.  Wayne performed the analog mods and added the platinum caps to my S3.  My question is about your experience or concerns about the realibility of the Squeezebox?  The reason I am asking is that we are taking a unit that was not really intended as a high-end audiophile component (based on its price) and we are turning it into one.  I truly love my Squeezebox but I do have a basis of comparison of its musical capabilities versus a quality CDP or CDP/DAC combination.  I would just hate to give up the convenience of being able to select any song in my library from my chair. 

I plan to spend more money on my unit in the future through the purchase of a better power supply but somehow I am concerned about investing the money in such a modesty priced unit (from the factory).  I look forward to your comments.  By the way I have not but am planning to try connecting the S3 directly to the amps when the Grover ICs arrive. 

Ken

Offline bpape

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2007, 05:38:12 PM »
IMO, it's a dream for the high end - the opportunity to do a true high end piece without spending a ton.  That's exactly WHY I like it.

Bryan
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Double Ugly

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2007, 05:51:36 PM »
What Bryan said.

But then you already know I what think, don'cha Ken?  :wink:

Offline Carlman

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2007, 05:59:13 PM »
I went with the mods done by Black Sand Cable on mine for that very reason... it was cheap, made a nice improvement, and kept the stock warranty.... I'm not a big fan of modifying cheap gear to the max.  However, I'm sure Wayne or some of the other modifiers could easily fix problems if they arose... related or unrelated to the mods themselves.  

I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi.  It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig.  I have them all over the house, though. :)  My tastes in digital reproduction are peculiar, though. ;)  

To each his own... The modifications likely bring it to a higher level but I'm not willing to take the risk of spending the money, then having it instantly devalued by the used market.  Sorry to be such a downer but I've had this reality 'gut-check' in the past with other mods and reselling.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline bpape

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2007, 06:13:28 PM »
To each their own.  But, after comparing the Boulder analog modded SB3 and power supply to a $12k + Wadia 2 piece system and have the Boulder be as good or better, I took the leap and have never looked back.

Bryan
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Double Ugly

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2007, 06:14:40 PM »
I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi.  It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig. 

I strongly suspect that's because you haven't heard what Bryan and I have heard.

I wouldn't have traded my SB2 and Ultimate PS for a full dCS stack straight up.  In fact, I can say the same for every player and transport/DAC combo I've heard or auditioned (which is a lot, FWIW).  What I had - at least at one time - was the finest digital reproduction of music I've ever experienced.

But then maybe my taste in digital reproduction aren't peculiar enough... :wink:  :lol:

-Jim
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 06:16:39 PM by Double Ugly »

Bigfish8

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2007, 06:19:58 PM »
What Bryan said.

But then you already know I what think, don'cha Ken?  :wink:

Jim:

I know you were really happy with the modified Squeezebox and modified power supply.  However, I thought you converted to a modified Transporter, a piece of gear aimed at the audiophile market.  I am certain, if you made the change to the Transporter, you did so for the potential sound improvement.  I guess I did not ask my the question in my post correctly.  What I should have asked is if anyone has experienced problems or realiability issues with a modified Squeezebox?

Thanks,

Ken

Offline bpape

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 06:30:12 PM »
None - it's only been positive from my experience and the other half dozen converts here in our GAS group.  I have not honestly heard of 1 problem or reliability issue with the units.  That certainly doesn't mean that problems don't happen - just that in my experience there haven't been any.

Bryan
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Offline Carlman

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2007, 07:08:57 PM »
I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi.  It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig. 

I strongly suspect that's because you haven't heard what Bryan and I have heard.

I wouldn't have traded my SB2 and Ultimate PS for a full dCS stack straight up.  In fact, I can say the same for every player and transport/DAC combo I've heard or auditioned (which is a lot, FWIW).  What I had - at least at one time - was the finest digital reproduction of music I've ever experienced.

But then maybe my taste in digital reproduction aren't peculiar enough... :wink:  :lol:

-Jim

True... but you haven't heard what I've heard... and probably don't care. ;)  But I'll just say I cannot enjoy oversampled digital music.  I like the non-oversampling sound... it's just more whole and real to me.  The best oversampler in the world will still grate on my nerves after a while.

The SB revolution is a combination of things... Convenience is one big one... But the main thing I think people like about the sound is the lack of jitter... Combined with a decent DAC you're on your way to good sound... Then add the mods to make the clocks sync better, the power cleaner, etc... and I'm sure the results are stellar.  I've heard SB3's and a Transporter with cryo-treatment only and not the mods.  However, I'm not willing to spend several times the cost of the SB3 to get it to sound like an acceptable transport... only to have to then buy a good non-oversampling DAC on top of that.  I'll have 2,k plus wrapped up in a transport and DAC... and still have to spend money on the PC, NAS, etc... and then the value equations starts diminishing... ESPECIALLY if you consider resale.

I could buy a good, new CD player today for 5,k retail.  It'll be worth 2-3,k in a few years and likely still work and sound great.  If I invested in a PC, SB3+modifications, and a DAC today, the PC and SB3 would be worth a small fraction of its value in the same time... and the DAC would be about half retail, like normal hifi.  I'd lose a lot more than half from new...  That's the main point I was making.... It's a riskier gamble to try this digital front if you want to resell and do something else.

Additionally, it's not worth it to me to have a PC (with a nice digital out) sitting in the room next to a SB3 with it's tiny 1-line screen... I need to see 2,000+ albums of music... If I press 'P' on my SB3 remote, I'll be scrolling for a few minutes getting to Prince.... Not fun at all.  Might as well just hook the PC to the DAC and use the PC's interface...  Just makes more sense to me... But, I'm kind of old-school. ;)

Have fun...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline bpape

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2007, 07:19:41 PM »
Ah, but that's the beauty.  You can use an OLD PC that's not up to any other task and just add disk.  Your hand me downs will work forever.  And you don't have to have the PC with a nice digital out and in the same room.  I run wired Cat5 to 1 of them and wireless to the other.  My PC is on the other end of the house.

Add in the slick little palmtop PC with the SlimServer skin and no more 1 line display, no noise, all the convenience.  Analog mods - no dac, no jitter, etc.  And I'm out for < $2k. 

I also like the non-OS dacs.  While not a killer, certainly no slouch is the MHDT with a decent tube in it (Bendix Red Bank).  Digital out through that DAC vs SB analog mods - no comparison IMO.  The SB is so much smoother, more organic, more realistic, more tonally correct, etc - all the things I like in an non-OS DAC and tube combination.

As I said, to each their own.  I wasn't a believer either until I heard it in my system in my room.  The difference in my case was not at all subtle.

Bryan
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Double Ugly

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007, 10:54:56 PM »
However, I thought you converted to a modified Transporter, a piece of gear aimed at the audiophile market.  I am certain, if you made the change to the Transporter, you did so for the potential sound improvement.  I guess I did not ask my the question in my post correctly.  What I should have asked is if anyone has experienced problems or realiability issues with a modified Squeezebox?

The short version is that I stupidly shipped the best sounding digital set-up I've experienced to a fellow music lover for an audition and it was damaged in transit.  Wayne tried to fix it, but it was never quite the same.

So I sold it and went the Transporter route.  I did so because I assumed (I *HATE* when I do that!) that it would have at least the same sonic potential as the SB, possibly more.  Yeah, it's more expensive, but in the end I thought maybe I could get more from it.  Unfortunately, that's not proven true yet, but modders are still working on it.  It took Wayne a LOOOOONG time to get his modified SBs to sound as good as they do, and I suspect the same will happen with the Transporter at some point.

True... but you haven't heard what I've heard... and probably don't care. ;)  But I'll just say I cannot enjoy oversampled digital music.  I like the non-oversampling sound... it's just more whole and real to me.  The best oversampler in the world will still grate on my nerves after a while.

Me too, and that's pretty much what I told Wayne up front. 

To paraphrase, I said I wasn't a member of his target market.  I told him I'd disliked every oversampling DAC I'd ever heard, and that there was no way on earth he could do enough to make me like a $300 plastic transport/player from a company I'd never heard of, ESPECIALLY if it oversampled!

He convinced me to listen anyway, just to provide him with an additional data point.  Needless to say, my going in position proved just a wee bit off the mark.  :wink:

Quote
The SB is so much smoother, more organic, more realistic, more tonally correct, etc - all the things I like in an non-OS DAC and tube combination.

Again, what he said!  :D


I've heard SB3's and a Transporter with cryo-treatment only and not the mods.  However, I'm not willing to spend several times the cost of the SB3 to get it to sound like an acceptable transport... only to have to then buy a good non-oversampling DAC on top of that.  I'll have 2,k plus wrapped up in a transport and DAC... and still have to spend money on the PC, NAS, etc... and then the value equations starts diminishing... ESPECIALLY if you consider resale.

To paraphrase you, I doubt you care what I think.  Even so, I believe Bryan and I agree that, if you haven't heard a full-up Bolder Cable SB + Ultimate PS, you haven't heard a fraction of what a SB is capable of.  The differences are almost unimaginable, and I say that as someone who compared it with a stock unit (fegettaboutit!), a no-longer-offered Bolder "Basic" modified unit (better, but still not even close) and a top-of-the-line RWA unit (over $600 spent and barely better than a stock unit :( ).

John Cook and I discussed this very thing a couple of days ago, and he doesn't have much regard for what Wayne's doing.  Now, I think the world of John and consider him a close and valued friend, but in this matter he's mistaken.

When you say (to paraphrase) "... the SB3 doesn't belong in a really good hifi", you condemn all SB3s without knowing how all of them sound.  It's also a back-handed swipe at all those who *do* believe the SB3 belongs there, but I don't believe that was your intent. 

Anyway, that's why I responded.  If you'd simply said you didn't like the SB3, I probably wouldn't have said a word.  But I couldn't allow that broad a brush stroke to pass without trying to pluck a few of the bristles.  :wink:

Oh, and with regards to resale value, I sold my SB2 and Ultimate PS for more than I paid for it.  How many transports, DACs, etc. can you say that about?

But you're happy where you are, and I'm more than content with my system.  Like Bryan said, to each their own.  :D

Take care,

-Jim

Offline Nick B

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 11:34:04 PM »
Hi Ken
Interesting topic you've picked. Overall, I love the SB wireless music server concept. It's been a very reliable performer for me. Sure, there are glitches, but often just restarting my pc or unplugging my SB 2 ps usually solves the problem. For a very reasonable amount of money, I have this gizmo I bought for about $250 and then spent some $$ (forgot how much) for the analog mods and $600 for a pretty darn good power supply. My investment for a couple of hard drives was minimal.
I appreciate this all so much more than the mega thousands I spent in the early 90's for VAC, Basis, Proac etc. All good, but very high-priced gear. And then I did not have the experience and the right cables and synergy to make it all sound good.
I like the SB 2 straight into the amp. I like not having to buy another dac and more IC's and power cord. Too many boxes and cables. IMO, this wireless dedicated music server concept is just getting off the ground. Believe me, I am looking for something more aesthetically pleasing and functional than an SB 2 and it's companion power supply. But until that time comes, I have very good sound to keep me going.
I wish I had the means to play with different amps, cables and non os vs oversampling dacs. Don't have the funds to do so right now. The only way for me to learn all this is to experience the sound in my house with the music I'm very familiar with and taking my time doing it. Listening at the shows is always fun, but the learning happens in my home listening environment. As Jim mentioned recently, the quality of sound via good gear and cables now makes it much easier to evaluate every new piece that  goes into the system.
Ken, I hope that you are home this weekend to enjoy that fine sytem you have.
Nick
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Offline bpape

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 04:11:38 AM »
Carl.

If you're coming to RMAF, stop by and see me.  I'll be using one of Wayne's modded SB's as the primary source in our room.  It's a basic system but I think you'll be amazed at the sound - especially under show conditions.

Modded SB3
Korato Tube Pre
Korato Bipolar SS 100W (class A to 30W) amp
ACI Sapphire XL monitors

Bryan
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Offline Woodsyi

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007, 06:13:25 AM »

The short version is that I stupidly shipped the best sounding digital set-up I've experienced to a fellow music lover for an audition and it was damaged in transit.  Wayne tried to fix it, but it was never quite the same.

-Jim

Darn it, Jim.  I didn't know that little crack in the board was the beginning of the end.  I thought I taped it up quite nicely.   :( 

I have 2 SB2 s that Wayne modded for me -- one with the analog mod has silver bybees on the outputs and the digital mod one has a gold on the digital out.  I still prefer the sound out of my DAC which upsamples to 24/192.  Analog out is very good too -- I just prefer the sound of my DAC.  To tell you the truth,  the difference is very minute and it's not worth the additional $kkks for the DAC if I didn't already have the DAC to go with my transport (my wife insists that she be able to play a CD).
I am a nut.

Offline richidoo

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Re: The Squeezebox????
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007, 11:28:18 AM »
$kkks
Funny! I like that...

Stock SB is a landmark audio product. It's success is born directly from its low price, that is its best feature. It was designed to the low price, meaning it was not designed as a high end audio device. There are inherent design compromises that disqualify it from being a hgh end source. The sound is very good for a mid fi player, which is why it has become a audiophile cult classic.

It's flaws are serious when considering it for a high end source. I don't believe these can be modded away because they are integral to the trendy "consumer appliance" design.

The flourescent display emits EMI that is audible in the analog output. Dimming the display helps, but it is still audible. Pictures of mods I've seen still run the coupling cap leads across the center of the device so EMI can still be picked up, but not amplified by the output gain stage. What do you guys find with the buzz on modded units? Theoretically it should still be there since low voltage signal from DAC is longer now. To hear it, set display on bright with large font, mute or pause, listen to right speaker - up close if you are lower sensitivity speakers, or from 10 feet away if higher sensitivity.

Digital VC adds noise with bit loss. Hash from using the digital volume control is audible, especially with high end DACs with powerful output stage like Altmann's 5Vpp. Much less audible (if at all) with stock analog outputs, but still there, of course.

My SB hissed full volume white noise at me when it was 3 months old, into a pair of directly connected Nuforce 9se.  :shock: I realized then that my unit is a toy and does not deserve upgrades. It has not misbehaved again since then, but I am still gun-shy. Other users have reported this behavior, and last I heard slim was not able to identify the cause. Maybe early batch, or maybe due to interaction with attached amps? Other less serious weird behavior happens from time to time, easily accepted as normal in a $300 device.

Disabling the output stage as is done in Bolder and RedWine mods reduces power output. This has implications that need to be addressed in a successful high end use of SB. I have a big room and occasionally play uncompressed classical music at full volume, straight into the amps and listen from 30 feet away (while I cook  :D ). In normal listening I often set SB to 85 and sit 10 feet away. I listen to compressed music at ~65. My speakers are 95dB efficient. So with no output stage I would need active gain after SB to achieve the volume levels I get with stock output stage. An external preamp usually means another pot, more caps, tubes, cables and temporary cable connections to color the sound and affect dynamics, etc. With all these compromises involved in using external attenuation I can understand why direct connection is recommended to hear the benefit of the upgraded SB, but there is a cost to removing the output stage if you listen mostly to music that is not compressed to -8dB RMS as is most modern non-classical music. Burson buffer is being used in place of output stage by some people now, but there's another $kkk.

To be a truly high end product, the speed and ease of use of the GUI needs upgrading too. Foobar on a laptop or couch side display appeals to me, but has drawback of local PC noise. A NAS solves the noise problem, but it can't host slimserver effectively, too slow for navigating. I guess slim running on a PC with network control on a handheld would work fine, but there will be normal wifi/windowsCE issues. NAS also does not have enough processing power to run Inguz plugin, nor to decode flac on the server and NAS still requires an improved display over the SB GUI.

SB is oversampling DAC in a less than ideal implementation due to the packaging and cost limitations. After hearing the battery powered Altmann NOS DAC, I am compelled to follow that path. The stock SB doesn't even come close.

As a $300 consumer electronics product I suspect SB will break inside of 10 years, but that remains to be seen. Every product I've owned in that category starts failing in some way by that time.

I like what stock SB does. I'm in no rush to upgrade, but I will eventually. The SB concept is great, and with good ICs, good cheap linear or battery power supply, and external analog attenuation I think it is a true, low budget, high end source, meaning it can easily be 'enjoyed' in a high end system without irritating distraction. It's not the best sound in the world, of course, but it's good, and better than most anything else made for $600 which is what it costs with Grover ICs and a decent Power-One/Condor/Elpac linear power supply. Maybe NAD or Cambridge Audio or somebody makes a CDP that sounds as good at that price, but it wouldn't have network music features we all love!
Sorry for the length on this one.
Rich