Author Topic: Where do you guys need help?  (Read 11442 times)

Offline P.I.

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 01:40:17 PM »

How about mechanical grounding or component isolation?


Dave, this is one area I'd like help. I've always wanted to build my own rack/shelf/isolation base. Don't know how though. Would even make sense to try to go the DIY route. What I'd really like is something like this:

http://www.timbernation.com/isolationplatforms_popup.html 

But can this be done cheaper and in an environmentally sensible way say with just MDF or other similar materials?
I've tried all kinds of materials over the years and MDF is not a great choice.  It can be OK if used as a layer in constrained layer construction, but alone it just sounds like mud IME.

I've always been a fan of maple, but ONLY hard maple, not the soft type.  Hard maple (also known as rock maple has a Janka hardness of ~ 1450 whereas soft maple is ~ 850.  Harder woods tent to sound more "lively" than the softer species.

I am a huge fan of mesquite, but it is hard to find in 6/4 or 8/4 thicknesses and is pretty expensive when compared to other species.

Black walnut is cool with a more midrange voice.

One place that you might think about trying is a granite fabricator.  The sink cutouts can be dressed to size and it is surprisingly good in sound and leaves lots of final voicing to different footers, etc.

Basically, wood shelves need to be addressed like guitar tonewods.  We speak of "tap tone" in woods.  Woods that go "flunk" go into the fireplace.  Woods that have a resonant, pleasing tones are the ones to experiment with for shelving.  I've spent years trying to figure woods out and at my advanced age I think I am finally getting a handle on what will sound good in use.

Got a dark system - go for a very hard wood.  Bright - something softer.

Oh, yeah.  Some butcher blocks can sound very good, you just have to take a chance sometimes.  Maple and oak are readily available at many wood suppliers.
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 09:16:47 PM »
I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.

So I set out to stain the butcher block to match the wood cabinet it was sitting on and finish it with a nice satin poly. My with was a good sport and let me keep her new butcher block under the TT while I finished the other piece. When it was ready to be swapped in I gave the TT a listen on the unfinished butcher block and played the same cut again once the finished butcher block was in place. And damned if they didn't sound different. I can't say that one sounded better than the other, but it was obvious that they were not the same (and both were better than the original slate base.  I guess if I had really wanted to I could have done further evaluations and determined which one was "better", but my wife had been very patient and the unfinished block was going into the kitchen that night no matter what.

Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound.  :roll:

But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 03:29:14 AM »
Maybe you need to go to 3" mine is 27lbs from Dawn's bb on e bay finished poly. Sounds great.
What do you have under the bb? Mine was baptized in the church. :thumb:

Color of stain might help too?

Trying to be productive of course.

Yahaaaaa :rofl:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 03:31:21 AM by DRN »

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 10:29:45 AM »
But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.

Spare time... what's that!?!  :duh

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Offline rollo

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 01:05:23 PM »
 Over the years I have experimented with numerous materials for plinths, shelves and footers. I will agree with Dave about the sonic results of hard and soft woods.
    If one decides to experiment keep the following in mind. Use similar but dis-similar materials when in contact with each other. The most effective TT set up we have experienced is a wood box filled with sand using a wood plinth covered in dynamat. Either a maple or Bamboo plinth. The box should be a minimum of 4" deep. Plinth 2" th. minimum. All shold sit on a steel stand [ grounded] or old steel speaker stand with spikes.
   With footers try the similar but dissimilar materials meaning if you use a Maple plinth try Ebony or other hard wood cones. Alum. blocks will transfer the vibes from a component to the plinth the most effective.
   Brass footers to my ears has always been bright. Sorbothane dark. Experiment and have fun.


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Offline malloy

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 08:44:10 PM »

I've tried all kinds of materials over the years and MDF is not a great choice.  It can be OK if used as a layer in constrained layer construction, but alone it just sounds like mud IME.

I've always been a fan of maple, but ONLY hard maple, not the soft type.  Hard maple (also known as rock maple has a Janka hardness of ~ 1450 whereas soft maple is ~ 850.  Harder woods tent to sound more "lively" than the softer species.

Black walnut is cool with a more midrange voice.

One place that you might think about trying is a granite fabricator.  The sink cutouts can be dressed to size and it is surprisingly good in sound and leaves lots of final voicing to different footers, etc.

Got a dark system - go for a very hard wood.  Bright - something softer.

Oh, yeah.  Some butcher blocks can sound very good, you just have to take a chance sometimes.  Maple and oak are readily available at many wood suppliers.

Interesting stuff! I've always wondered why manufacturers went for hardwoods. Thanks!

Offline malloy

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 08:48:32 PM »
I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.


Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound.  :roll:


I have a small Boos Block that I'm planning to experiment on. It's unfinished and might do as you did with the polyurethane.  Did you use any special material as a footer?

Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 08:53:37 PM »
Bamboo...Boos blocks including wipe on polyurethane gel. Learning lots of new things.
Thanks!!
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Offline rollo

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 07:39:57 AM »
Boos blocks ??


charles
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Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 05:28:29 PM »
Boos blocks ??

Basically, they're the "MonsterAudio" of kitchen cutting boards.

Offline dBe

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »
I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.

So I set out to stain the butcher block to match the wood cabinet it was sitting on and finish it with a nice satin poly. My with was a good sport and let me keep her new butcher block under the TT while I finished the other piece. When it was ready to be swapped in I gave the TT a listen on the unfinished butcher block and played the same cut again once the finished butcher block was in place. And damned if they didn't sound different. I can't say that one sounded better than the other, but it was obvious that they were not the same (and both were better than the original slate base.  I guess if I had really wanted to I could have done further evaluations and determined which one was "better", but my wife had been very patient and the unfinished block was going into the kitchen that night no matter what.

Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound.  :roll:

But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.
What you heard was the influence of a plastic finish on hardwood.

We've known about this in the musical instrument realm for years.  This is why the finest instruments are finished with unplasticized lacquers and lacquer sanding sealers.  They craze over years, but tat is a small price to pay for free resonance.  That is only one of the reasons that a bana fide '59 Les Paul sounds so much better than a Gibson Custom Shop R9.  The new replicas are sealed with a vinyl sealer under the nitrocellulose lacquer with added plasticizers to prevent the finish crazing.  The harder the finish, the better...  Poly is my least favorite finish for anything even vaguely musical.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 08:08:30 PM »
Brass instruments including flutes and saxes use silver and even gold plating to avoid the overtone-damping lacquer coat. Nitrocellose is wood fiber dissolved in solvent and that solvent released into the atmosphere is basically illegal for professional use, so modern brass instrument lacquer is really just acrylic now. It still flakes off anyway. When I saw Miles play at the big "Live Aid" concert he was playing a trumpet with dark red transparent lacquer. At least that's what it looked like from half mile away.

String instruments made of wood are far more susceptible to damage from varying humidity, so they need a waterproof protective layer. To avoid damping the complex overtones they avoid plastic coatings and turn to natural tree resins and oils. For the tweeky audiophile interpretation of this how 'bout some Charles Altmann?


Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 09:33:15 PM »
Thanks for that detailed information. I enjoy trying to understand why things work...or don't.
The Charles Altman site is fascinating
Nick
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Offline steve

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2017, 02:16:31 PM »
Quote
Psychoacoustic so, why should we care.

If you are meaning we fool ourselves while listening, I would not care. Someone recently had the opportunity to ask the "experts" at least 4 times this question concerning dbt/abx testing. (This was on another forum.) There is more information though out this post concerning "scientific" dbt/abx testing.

From another forum:
Quote
How can one obtain 90% confidence when 50% of a group are positioned in bass increasing areas, and 50% are in bass decreasing areas?


Every single "expert" dodged the question, time after time. Never did get a response.

Of course, one has to also address variable confounds such as cochlea fatigue (tired ear), habituation to stimuli (after 2 or 3 ABs, will tend to sound the same), spl, type, quality of recordings, bandwidth, echoes etc.

If one checks out books, websites, only "sight" is listed as a variable confound, so one will never perform a correct test procedure, so the conclusion will virtually always be no sonic difference. Just a typical marketing tatic.

Quote
Measurements: which ones really matter?

I suppose power output, frequency response because some are down a db at 20khz etc. Harmonic distortion since a few might be high at 1 watt output. Also depends upon which harmonics are involved.

Quote
Is flat response desire able or even musical?

I would say flat, but just my opinion. I have a caveat, that +/- 0.1db means virtually nothing. Varying the FR by 0,2db is like varying the frequency response only around 54db down from the fundamental.

Personally, I am tweaking the frequency response (FR) 1 part in ~200,000 on my speaker xovers (which equates to about ~105 - 110db down), and less than 0,2% on cap values in my mono block amps.

I can easily see why components "sound" different.

Quote
Speaker design?

I have found 2nd order xover is about as far as I wish to go, no 3rd order. Just too difficult to design 3rd order to sound right.

Quote
Are shielded interconnects necessary or even matter?

I do not use shielded ICs even for my turn table to phono stage. At full volume just a slight hum at the driver cone. And I live ~6 miles from megawatt tv stations. But I suppose it would not hurt to use shielded, but I prefer both to twisted.

I am sure most are probably not concerned with such minute sonic changes, but it is good to understand how sensitive our ears are. I believe that our ears are more reliable than dbt/abx tests, which are inherently flawed virtually all the time.

Cheers

Steve
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 02:21:05 PM by steve »
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Offline topround

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2017, 04:02:05 PM »
Boos Blocks are butcher block slabs for meal preparation
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.