Author Topic: Rollin, rollin, rollin,  (Read 17613 times)

Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2016, 02:55:02 PM »
Hi Paul.
Post a picture of the entire preamp from above so we can see what caps do what.

My friend Sol recapped Carl's Belles 21A with excellent results, replacing the stock Dayton caps. But 21A has no solid state output buffer like 22A does, iirc, so the caps are doing different things.  Your 15uF cap is a big one, so it is coupling something with low impedance, maybe that's the discreet SS output stage?

You basically want to replace the dayton film caps (horizontal with yellow ends.) The electrolytic (vertical cans) are power supply, they are OK. 

I personally like Jantsen Superior Z caps for great sound at a good price. Parts express sells them. Make sure they will physically fit before you buy, check dimensions of stock (caps are sized in mm widthxlength.) Some boutique brands are huge. Any film cap that is bipolar, with same voltage rating (250V) and capacitance rating (15uF, etc) will work.

I will check with Sol about which caps he put in Carl's (Mallory, iirc?) I know they were not an audiophile brand, but Carl was thrilled with them even though he originally wanted boutique audiophile status brand. But almost anything will be better than Dayton, except Solen.

Pls post plan view. Rich
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)


Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2016, 05:22:03 PM »
Sol replied:
"The smaller caps aren't in the signal path and I never bothered with them in Carl's. 150224J630LE is the Mallory 0.22uF 630V cap and in parallel, I used the Panasonic   ECA-2EM220 22uF 250V electrolytic. This replaced the four 15uF Dayton capacitors. I'd like to see more to be sure. Just be sure to orient the electrolytic in the correct direction..."

The bypass film is used to improve the highs of the electrolytic.  If you use a high quality large film cap you may not need a bypass cap. But large films that don't need bypasses to help the highs are expensive.

In Carl's preamp the output coupling caps value was increased from 15uF to 22uF to improve the bass playing into Carl's McIntosh amplifier with 10k input impedance, by lowering the -3dB point and reducing phase error. Your 15uF coupling cap is playing into the preamp's own SS output stage whose impedance is factored into the choice of 15uF, so maybe 15uF is adequate.

I use these for everything, love them, but my taste is questionable:
http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-15uf-800v-z-superior-capacitor--027-498

I asked Sol again about the 2.2s, why he thinks they are not in signal path, he replied:
"I remember something like that in Carl's. The B+ is regulated and I think they were for compensation circuits. I'll be able to tell more when I see a more detailed picture..."
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)

Offline Putz

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2016, 12:58:36 PM »
Took more pictures. Let me know if any more pics are needed


Offline rollo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2016, 04:16:03 PM »
   Soup yet !!! Hey Putz.


charles
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2016, 04:25:55 PM »
Sol says 15uF is fine to replace the 15uF, you don't need larger capacity. He doesn't have any suggestions for a large film cap. He says forget about the 2.2uF and its bypass, just leave them. Hopefully others will chime in with some of their favorite suggestions for big film caps.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 04:50:20 PM by richidoo »
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)

Offline rollo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2016, 07:46:06 AM »
   Did anyone consult with Belles on this mod ? Just curious.


charles
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2016, 08:33:00 AM »
Just a follow up to a long ago post. I have had Brimar Cv181's installed in my Modwright Pre. I have had sufficient time to get used to them and I must say they are damn good.
Modwright LS 100 Pre, KWA 100SE Pwr Amp, VPI Classic II/BenzMicro Glider, Open Aire Aktiv OB Speakers, Velodyne HGS12, Emotiva ERC-3 CDP, Burson Conductor DAC, DH Labs, Wywires, PS Audio, Ultrafi USB, TWL, PS Audio PPP

Offline Putz

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2016, 10:08:30 AM »
Let me try to sum this up and I will run it by David Belles for his thoughts once you confirm what should be done.

There are 4 issues that I would like to clarify:

1.  15 uf output coupling cap. Replace with a 15 uf like the Jantzen you recommended. The Jantzen is 800V. The Dayton is 250V. Is that a problem?

2.  2.2 uf cap. Leave them alone?

3.  Electrolytic vertical cans. These are in my 3rd picture on Page 2 and are marked 33000 uf? (Please confirm that). I should leave these alone?

4.  You mentioned a large film cap and not having any suggestions. Which cap is that (??uf) and should I replace.

Thanks for all your help and I am almost there as far as understanding all this.

Paul

Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2016, 11:36:22 AM »
1. Voltage rating is the max voltage the cap can handle. Increasing the voltage rating is OK. The downside is increased physical size. Improved sound quality often is larger size, too.

2. 2.2uF caps are not in the audio signal path, so upgrading these will not noticeably improve the SQ. Same with the .01 caps near the 2.2s.

3. The electrolytic caps are power supply filters, also not in audio signal path. Leave those alone.

4. I was referring to Sol's last response. He doesn't use boutique parts, so he didn't have a boutique high voltage film cap suggestion for the 15uF. He used Panny electro with reliable industrial brand film bypass on Carl's, and of course it works well because engineering. I like my cult beliefs and still use boutique parts, Sol agrees sometimes they sound better. He is not idealogical audiophile, just what works for lowest cost and effort.

I think most people here would say Jantzens aren't really that great compared to Teflon, clarity duelund, whatever and that's true, they are relatively cheap for high end caps. There's a lot of articles about best coupling caps on the net. Just remember you need 15uF or higher, and you need 250v or higher, and small enough to fit under the lid.
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)

Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2016, 11:38:17 AM »
  Did anyone consult with Belles on this mod ? Just curious.


charles

Belles designs to a price. It is very high value design. There very few caps worse than Dayton. The improvement is extreme.

Edit: Sorry terse, wrote in a hurry on a cellphone...  oops
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:57:59 PM by richidoo »
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)

Offline rollo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2016, 07:49:11 AM »
  Cool. Was just curious.


charles
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2016, 10:55:01 PM »
Look on the top of the RCA box for the tube info. Best place to look is on the tube. You may have to look very carefully for the worn designation.

The top Belles Statement VT-01 preamp review on Dagogo shows the Dayton film output caps still being used in 2011 version. But it has tube output stage like 21A. If you have cooling slots in the cover you can peer inside with a flashlight. They are large black with yellow caps. They are inexpensive and maybe Dave Belles likes them in the same way I like $6 Shuguang 12AU7s.  :rofl:  Carlman had a great improvement when he replaced his with Roederstein caps.    Hometheaterdoc used 22A for a while, he did a lot of tube rolling, maybe he'll chime in.

PM your address. I'll try to dig them up! You'll have to open the preamp to change the tubes.  :-P

So I opened up the Belles and took pictures of the Caps. The first 2 pics are  Daytons. Not sure what the 3rd pic is? Please recommend replacements and be as specific as possible since I am new to this game.
the third picture is of Panasonic electrolytics.  They are good quality main power supply bulk capacitors (ECO series... Soon to be discontinued), good nonetheless.

The Dayton film and foils are stupid good for their price.  I'm like +3 on the Jantzen Supremes.  Great sounding over achievers.  They simply kill for their cost in some applications... Like this one.

YMMV, of course, but if you don't like them I would probably buy them from you.  Just sayin' ...
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Offline Putz

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2016, 11:54:49 PM »
[[/quote]the third picture is of Panasonic electrolytics.  They are good quality main power supply bulk capacitors (ECO series... Soon to be discontinued), good nonetheless.

The Dayton film and foils are stupid good for their price.  I'm like +3 on the Jantzen Supremes.  Great sounding over achievers.  They simply kill for their cost in some applications... Like this one.

YMMV, of course, but if you don't like them I would probably buy them from you.  Just sayin' ...
[/quote]

Thanks for the +3 on the Jantzens. I am looking at them and also at the Mundorf 15.0 mfd Supreme Caps. Any thoughts on the Mundorfs? I'm depending on the kindness of strangers to guide me.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Rollin, rollin, rollin,
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2016, 09:34:34 AM »
Look up your candidates here:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
"I don't care much about music. What I like is sounds." - Dizzy Gillespie  (Audiophile or Liar?)