Integrated Amps...???

[rollo]

  Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.

charles      

Charles

Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies?  My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power.  I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them, if I feed them more WPC.

Bill

   All power is not equal, meaning the 60W of triode power will act like a 100W SS amp. I would noy have suggested the amp if it was not enough juice. Audio Research and VS are a very good match.
    I understand your desire to simplify. Just thought hearing as many amps as possible would be a learning experience.
     Hey just go but a Marantz or Onyko receiver and be done.


charles

[rpf]

Bill,

As I offered before, you're welcome to borrow my Rogue Cronus Magnum. It has 90wpc but sounds more powerful with the KT120 tubes I'm using. Drives my 87 db efficient (8 ohm nominal, 3.9 ohm minimum) speakers effortlessly.

It also has a phono stage. You can probably pick one up used for about $1400.

Rob

[richidoo]

Bill,

As I offered before, you're welcome to borrow my Rogue Cronus Magnum. It has 90wpc but sounds more powerful with the KT120 tubes I'm using. Drives my 87 db efficient (8 ohm nominal, 3.9 ohm minimum) speakers effortlessly.

It also has a phono stage. You can probably pick one up used for about $1400.

Rob

That would probably work very nicely. KT120 tubes are definitely the wtg.

[StereoNut]

  Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.

charles      

Charles

Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies?  My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power.  I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them, if I feed them more WPC.

Bill

   All power is not equal, meaning the 60W of triode power will act like a 100W SS amp. I would noy have suggested the amp if it was not enough juice. Audio Research and VS are a very good match.
    I understand your desire to simplify. Just thought hearing as many amps as possible would be a learning experience.
     Hey just go but a Marantz or Onyko receiver and be done.

charles

Sorry for my ignorance, Charles.  Considering that I've never owned tube equipment before, I didn't know that there was a "power rating curve" (1 tube watt = 1.67 SS watts) in comparing Tube watts to SS watts. 

Hearing as many amps as possible would be a valuable learning (listening) experience, but it will necessitate the auditioning of pre-amps as well, since my Naim electronics doesn't "play nice" with other manufacturer's gear.

Simplify, yes - but in all due respect to both Marantz & Onkyo, I'm not ready to go that far back in that direction.  Otherwise I would've kept my old Lafayette receiver and Criterion speakers that I had back in 1972 and never moved on from there!

Bill

[Emil]

Bill
Rpf's offer is really the way to go.

A bird in the hand........

[richidoo]

Here's some reviews
http://www.needledoctor.com/Rogue-Audio-Cronus-Integrated-Amp_2

[toobluvr]

Just FWIW, I have heard Rob's / rpf Rogue Cronus Magnum many many times, in his system and in mine.  It is excellent.  Liked it so much I bought the Atlas Magnum = amp only version of Cronus integrated.

These Rogue amps are rock solid built, dependable, very quiet, and very steady on the bias...which is a snap to do.  I have owned many many tube amps and this is about as worry free, dependable and reliable as toobulation gets.

And don't fall into SS vs tube sterotypes.  This thing can really rock and has bass as good as any SS I've heard in my rig.  And I've heard and owned more than a few well known and highly regarded brands.

John

[StereoNut]

Just FWIW, I have heard Rob's / rpf Rogue Cronus Magnum many many times, in his system and in mine.  It is excellent.  Liked it so much I bought the Atlas Magnum = amp only version of Cronus integrated.

These Rogue amps are rock solid built, dependable, very quiet, and very steady on the bias...which is a snap to do.  I have owned many many tube amps and this is about as worry free, dependable and reliable as toobulation gets.

And don't fall into SS vs tube sterotypes.  This thing can really rock and has bass as good as any SS I've heard in my rig.  And I've heard and owned more than a few well known and highly regarded brands.

John

Thanks, John.  It's nice to get additional feedback (pardon the pun) on equipment, to see if there are enough similar comments along the way that substantiate each other.  At the same time, it's really tough to get a total read on things just on suggestions alone. That's why having an opportunity to hear someone else's piece (like Rob's) in your own system is so invaluable.

The bottom line (as it's been said on every audio forum countless times before) always comes down to getting a chance to actually hear something in your own system.  There are so few brick & mortar stores left (let alone ones that will allow you an in-home audition on a piece of equipment) that it's not a luxury we get very often when it comes to contemplating system changes.  The alternative of buying used is a great way of getting "more bang for one's buck"; but it's a crap-shoot when it comes to synergy within your system once you get it.  Of course, you can then try to "roll it over" back on the used market and hopefully not get (too) hurt $$$, but there is the time and effort involved to do so. 

Nonetheless, the quest continues...

[toobluvr]

I just keep buying and selling....buying and selling...buying and selling....in the used market, till I find something that floats my boat.

Yeah, it takes some effort, but you get good prices and the ability to try in your own rig.  And if you are careful you don't get burnt, and sometimes even make $$.    

[StereoNut]

...The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier.  I did not see a review on Stereophile.com...

Rich

Thanks for your input here.  As usual, you bring a wealth of information to any thread that you post on.  

I believe my VR-4 Gen.III's with the 2012 MOD are different than what the VR-4 Mk3's were.  I e-mailed V.S.A. to ask for specs, just to help give everyone a better idea of what my speakers will need to "sing" amp-wise.  As soon as I hear back from Von Schweikert, I will post additional info.

SN

Albert Von Schweikert responded to my question on "before and after" specs by saying the specs are really for the most part, the same.  The upgraded speakers (2012 MOD) sound better because they have all new and better quality drivers, x-overs, wiring, etc. along with additional cabinet bracing and dampening.

Here's what I found for specs via a Stereotimes review of my speakers when they were new in 2001.

http://www.stereotimes.com/speak101001.shtml

Von Schweikert Audio VR-4 Generation III

3 Way, 5 driver, two-piece stacking monitor

Crossover - 150 Hz and 2.6 kHz.

Response - 20-20kHz, +/- 3 dB, 18Hz-25kHz -6dB (+/- 1dB at midband).

Nominal Impedance - 6 Ohms

Sensitivity - 89dB @ 1w/1m using 2.83v (in room)

Hopefully this helps everyone in trying to match up new electronics to my speakers, so they compliment each other better.

Thanks!
SN

[richidoo]

The impedance/phase graph would reveal the true story. You can borrow my measuring tool if you really want to know, DATS system from Parts Express. It will measure the impedance and phase. But since you have access to rpf's tube amp, and a set of ears, you don't really need to know the load details. See how the bass sounds to you with the 90W tube amp, compared to your present SS amp. If it is clear and punchy enough on several different types of LF music, then you are OK for tubes, as most transformer output tube amps have actual output impedance of about 1.5ohms. Then you need to hear how well the tube amp handles loud music with complex harmony (dissonance) preferably in high and low registers simultaneously. If it distorts audibly, or stresses out then you need more power. I can send you a short test track for this if you want.

[StereoNut]

The impedance/phase graph would reveal the true story. You can borrow my measuring tool if you really want to know, DATS system from Parts Express. It will measure the impedance and phase. But since you have access to rpf's tube amp, and a set of ears, you don't really need to know the load details. See how the bass sounds to you with the 90W tube amp, compared to your present SS amp. If it is clear and punchy enough on several different types of LF music, then you are OK for tubes, as most transformer output tube amps have actual output impedance of about 1.5ohms. Then you need to hear how well the tube amp handles loud music with complex harmony (dissonance) preferably in high and low registers simultaneously. If it distorts audibly, or stresses out then you need more power. I can send you a short test track for this if you want.

Thanks, Rich.  I don't think I need to go to the extreme (at least for me) of plotting a impedance/phase graph with test equipment.  I do plan on setting something up with Rob soon to get a listen to his system with the Rogue integrated and then making arrangements to borrow it to listen to it in my system.  If it's not too much trouble to send me the test track that you're talking about, that would be great!

Bill

[richidoo]

Bill,
Here's another tube amp that I was trying to remember when this thread was fresh. I was reminded by the ad in Stereophile today.

It's made in your neighborhood, looks very nice indeed. It can use KT120 tubes.

http://rogershighfidelity.com/

StereoExchange and CSA Audio Design are dealers.

http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1010/rogers_high_fidelity_ehf100.htm

[StereoNut]

Thanx, Rich!