Integrated Amps...???

[StereoNut]

Since Rich has commented about Tube Integrateds on my Phono Stage thread...

"Lots of tube integrateds out there. You get what you pay for, watch out for compromised output transformers."

I'll pose the question to everyone here.  As I recently posted on that other thread, I am contemplating the purchase of a tube integrated amplifier to replace my Naim (SS) electronics.  

I haven't made up my mind yet, but have been leaning towards the Jolida JD1000RC.  Seems to be a lotta "bang for the buck", not to mention high power and a remote!

http://www.jolida.com/product/tubeamp/jd1000rc

My recently modded/upgraded Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen.III's aren't the most sensitive speakers on the planet (I think they're rated at about 90-91db) so I want a good amount of power. (The Jolida is 100 WPC.)  The other major influence here (for me) is that Albert Von Schweikert (don't say a word, Jim!) has been using this Jolida amp to demo his new VR-33 speakers at the more recent audio shows.

My other concerns are tube availability and replacement costs; I don't want to get into a situation where tubes are impossible to find and/or they cost a $$$ fortune.

I am working with a budget of about $2500.00 for this and another $500.00 for an outboard phono stage if the integrated doesn't have one.  If there's an integrated with a phono section included, I can stretch my budget a bit further since there won't be a need for spending additional $$$ on a separate phono stage. (Obviously!)

Suggestions...???  

[rollo]

  Rouge Audio Magnum. Lets not forget Melody. Jolida is sold by S&G Custom Sound. Maybe Scott has one for you to audition.



charles

[StereoNut]

  ...Jolida is sold by S&G Custom Sound. Maybe Scott has one for you to audition.

charles

I traded e-mails with Scott the other day.  He speaks very highly of the Jolida line.  He doesn't have that particular (JD1000RC) model on hand, but it can be ordered.  Of course, I have to "torture" myself adequately by agonizing over other choices first, before I buy anything! 

Bill

[Triode Pete]

RAM Labs, Niteshade Audio, Vista Audio i34 ...

[Emil]

Saw this on Long Island Craigslist. Dont know anything about the brand though

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/ele/2994698811.html


and this in Brooklyn
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/rogue-audio-tempest-3-integrated-amp-less-than-500-hrs

[BobM]

I was mightly impressed with the Cayin stuff back when Phil (from NYAR) was sponsoring the line. It was inexpensive, but nicely built and sounded great. Built in China.

[richidoo]

The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier.  I did not see a review on Stereophile.com.

Info about speaker impedance and phase  as relates to amplifiers.
http://sound.westhost.com/patd.htm

To maintain a relaxed confident sound from any amplifier, you want enough headroom to allow for dynamic peaks without approaching max power, where distortion rises dramatically making the amp sound "stressed." For your dynamic but hungry speakers, sufficient headroom will be a rather high power rating, depending on how loud you play, and how your preferred music falls on the impedance curve.

With nominal 4 ohm speaker of moderate sensitivity, I'd be sticking with SS to keep good bass control at low impedances.  But for tubes, I'd be looking for 100W+, you'll need something that can use 4 KT88/6550 tubes at a minimum. High power tubes are pricey proposition when you want low distortion, (good trannies) so you might need to shop used.

I liked the Cayin A100-T 100W integrated when I heard it with Quad 2805. $3500 retail.

Audio Research VSi60 uses four of the new, very powerful Tung Sol KT120 tubes, and quality iron. They brag about low impedance ability. I heard it 4 years ago on Wilson Sophia2 at RMAF, sounded very nice indeed. The KT120 is building a great reputation for sounding very good, and making a lot of power. Audio research has switched from Svetlana 6550 winged C to KT120 for their one power output tube used on all new products. It is made by New Sensor, an American owned company in Russia. All of their tube brands are reliable and consistent. You'd have to try this amp to make sure it's a good fit, and it's definitely over your budget, but I think you'd like it.  

Edit: The VSi60 is only $4000 retail (2010.) A used one might fit in your budget, and hold resale value extremely well over the years, as all AR gear does.

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/audio_research_vsi60_integrated_amplifier Reviewed with the old style 6550 tubes. New amp have the KT120s.

[tmazz]

Rich, great minds think alike. I was having the same type of conversation with Bill at luchtime today. Given the budget he was taking about of $2500 for the amp and $500 for a phono stage I told him I thought he could get into an ARC combo of an SP-9 pre (which has a very nice phono section built in) and a D-115 or D-125 power amp. If he finds a good deal I could even see him scoring an SP-9 and one of the newer VT-100 amps for that kind of money. Not an integrated, but still a whole lot of sound for the buck.

[richidoo]

AR stuff is very nice! Some pieces better than others, but all good, and all strong resale and quality.  I was assuming the integrated wish was due to size or cost restraints, reducing the living room gear footprint or system investment. Some of these new jewel like integrated amps are so tempting.

[StereoNut]

...The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier.  I did not see a review on Stereophile.com...

Rich

Thanks for your input here.  As usual, you bring a wealth of information to any thread that you post on.  

I believe my VR-4 Gen.III's with the 2012 MOD are different than what the VR-4 Mk3's were.  I e-mailed V.S.A. to ask for specs, just to help give everyone a better idea of what my speakers will need to "sing" amp-wise.  As soon as I hear back from Von Schweikert, I will post additional info.

SN

[rollo]

   Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.


charles     

[StereoNut]

AR stuff is very nice! Some pieces better than others, but all good, and all strong resale and quality.  I was assuming the integrated wish was due to size or cost restraints, reducing the living room gear footprint or system investment. Some of these new jewel like integrated amps are so tempting.

Rich

Cost is part of the equation, but I was leaning towards an integrated mostly to simplify things a little bit.  The size/space issue really isn't a problem for me, but I like the idea of eliminating a set of I/C's between amp & pre-amp.  Even more importantly, an integrated saves me the hassle of mixing/matching amps to pre-amps and vice-versa.  Depending upon what I settle on (if I do buy new electronics) it will also be nice to have a remote.

I guess the bottom line is I'm trying to get myself back to just enjoying the music again and not be so analytical and critical while listening to equipment/system changes etc...

The Nervosa Merry-Go-Round is starting to wear me out!!!

Bill

[StereoNut]

  Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.

charles      

Charles

Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies?  My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power.  I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them, if I feed them more WPC.

Bill

[richidoo]

I think you are trying to make three decisions with one stone here.  You want more power to bring out the best of the VR4s. You are curious about tube sound because most of your cronies use tubes. And you want to simplify the system into one box.

Considering your sound quality desires (clean bass), budget and speaker load I still recommend a solid state integrated. If you went with separates then tube amps would have enough power and finesse for your speakers.  But tubes add glorious distortion that sounds nice. It is not the music, but it is pretty and emotionally stimulating. Like a Ferrari V12 engine, it adds an extra stimulation to the information stream of the passing scenery. Some people love the scream of the engine which adds thrill to the ride, while others would prefer a silent engine so they can hear the birds and leaves rustling and enjoy the subtleties of reality more intensely.

As for solid state integrateds, here are some thoughts off the cuff. I have heard Pass INT150, it was pretty good, but pricey. They make INT-30A also, which makes 60W@4ohms, but most people complain that it runs out of power and they want more. I have not heard any McIntosh integrateds, but I would fear the crappy preamp section. I would be very curious to hear SimAudio Moon Evolution 700i or 600i. NAD M2 and M3 integrated amps have received very good reviews and good prices. Bel Canto C7R has everything you want in a tiny pretty box, even MM preamp and FM tuner, USB high res digital input, remote. If Barry still has his prize Bel Canto, it might be similar innards? BelCanto uses ICE class D amps, with their own input stage and DAC.  Audio Research DSi200 (class D.) I'm sure there are many more for you to explore.  Integrateds are hot now. I use a 60W custom SS integrated that I like very much. I don't miss tubes, except when I use one, I can hear the lovely sounds tempting me. As much as I enjoy the extra love of the tubes I am usually relieved when I put the quiet and peaceful SS back in. Most SS on a budget has shitty treble, so you do have to look out for that, even on these famous brand so called high end products. High end SS design is a very extreme discipline, it is harder to get it really right than tube design is.

[Emil]

Stereonut

Maybe you should consider a hybrid integrated.

I've used this one for several years.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/valve-audio-predator-250wpc-int-amp-save-2800

Virtually unknown in the US. Built extremely well and receptive to tube rolling.
You can probably snag it for $900. Reselling can be tough as I've found out