AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Tubes => Topic started by: jimbones on December 23, 2015, 08:31:56 AM
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So over the past 3 years I have nearly replaced everything in my system. I have a tube pre and I should keep good NOS back up tubes. Whats a man to do? TUBE ROLLIN!! I'm scouring the internet to figure out what type 6SN7 to buy. It can make a man crazy! Leaning towards a TungSol from the 1950's 6SN7GT White Label.
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So over the past 3 years I have nearly replaced everything in my system. I have a tube pre and I should keep good NOS back up tubes. Whats a man to do? TUBE ROLLIN!! I'm scouring the internet to figure out what type 6SN7 to buy. It can make a man crazy! Leaning towards a TungSol from the 1950's 6SN7GT White Label.
Jim-bo,
You want to lose your mind??? I have ~ 15 MATCHED pairs of vintage 6SN7GT's you can try... Mainly all USA-made with a British Brimar pair mixed in...
Also, I can give you a copy of VTV 6SN7 shoot-out with comments & ratings... That will surely put you over the edge!
Happy Nervosa!
Pete
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So over the past 3 years I have nearly replaced everything in my system. I have a tube pre and I should keep good NOS back up tubes. Whats a man to do? TUBE ROLLIN!! I'm scouring the internet to figure out what type 6SN7 to buy. It can make a man crazy! Leaning towards a TungSol from the 1950's 6SN7GT White Label.
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Jim-bo,
You want to lose your mind??? I have ~ 15 MATCHED pairs of vintage 6SN7GT's you can try... Mainly all USA-made with a British Brimar pair mixed in...
Also, I can give you a copy of VTV 6SN7 shoot-out with comments & ratings... That will surely put you over the edge!
Happy Nervosa!
Pete
Well it sounds like you can help cure my nervosa. I'd love to try them. I'll message you. Thanks Pete.
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I have a Belles 22A preamp that uses 2 12AU7s. I believe they currently have vintage RCA 5963 tubes installed.
3 questions
Are the RCAs good tubes?
What other tubes would you recommend for rolling?
What's the lifespan on these tubes? I leave the preamp on a lot and I'm concerned about wearing out the tubes.
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Well it sounds like you can help cure my nervosa.
More like pouring on gasoline! :rofl:
I have a Belles 22A preamp that uses 2 12AU7s. I believe they currently have vintage RCA 5963 tubes installed.
3 questions
Are the RCAs good tubes?
What other tubes would you recommend for rolling?
What's the lifespan on these tubes? I leave the preamp on a lot and I'm concerned about wearing out the tubes.
Genelex Gold Lion 12AU7 would be my first choice for new production tubes.
Belles 21 is an all-tube preamp that came with lousy "Dayton" output caps. The 22 is solid state output stage, but you should check if there are any lousy coupling caps in the circuit. Upgrading those would yield bigger improvement than rolling tubes.
The tube life depends on how hard it's used. Belles is not hard on tubes. You should expect 5000+ hours with good quality new tubes with typical B+ and bias current. 2 decades of light use, or a couple years of always on. You'll hear when they get old, it sounds wimpy, syrupy, soft, or harsh and lots harmonic distortion like ringing.
RCA made excellent quality tubes. They tend toward slightly warm sounding, very musical, classic vintage tone. Not as syrupy as Amperex or lesser extent Mullard, but usually not as detailed and clean sounding as most current production tubes or vintage Telefunken. But there are some RCA variants like "cleartop" that are more detailed, at expense of less bass. I have a pair of these (Black Sable cryo from tube depot) that I'll probably never use, if you want to try them. With your solid state output stage to support the bass they might be good, idk. Shuguang 12au7 is very inexpensive and very clear, clean, good extension, full tone, but probably not as refined as the Genelex.
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How do I check if there are any lousy coupling caps in the circuit.
Don't want to open up the preamp. Here's a pick of the RCA tube box. Any way to tell which one it is?
Would love to try your cleartops.
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Well, the plan is not to demo all 15 pairs. i would limit it to 3 pairs.
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Look on the top of the RCA box for the tube info. Best place to look is on the tube. You may have to look very carefully for the worn designation.
The top Belles Statement VT-01 preamp review on Dagogo shows the Dayton film output caps still being used in 2011 version. But it has tube output stage like 21A. If you have cooling slots in the cover you can peer inside with a flashlight. They are large black with yellow caps. They are inexpensive and maybe Dave Belles likes them in the same way I like $6 Shuguang 12AU7s. :rofl: Carlman had a great improvement when he replaced his with Roederstein caps. Hometheaterdoc used 22A for a while, he did a lot of tube rolling, maybe he'll chime in.
PM your address. I'll try to dig them up! You'll have to open the preamp to change the tubes. :-P
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Top of box has R-CB 5 (1-49). Not pulling the amp apart at this point.
Hometheaterdoc originally sold this amp back in 2012. I am the second owner. I got his blessing before I bought it on Agon.
I'll pm you and check out the caps when I change tubes. Karl Tam could change the Caps for me if necessary. I don't solder and I'm assuming that's needed. Karl recapped my Classe amp not that long ago.
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Well, the plan is not to demo all 15 pairs. i would limit it to 3 pairs.
Chicken!
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Cool! Good to know it's still in the "extended family."
Snap a pic of the preamp when you have it open. You'll refer to it often once you start thinking about mods. It's very easy to mod.
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bock, bock, bock
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I don't know why, but suddenly I'm getting a craving to spin some Frankie Laine.
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Paul,
I think I have a bunch of 12au7 including some clear tops if you want to try them. I am around all next week if you want to stop by and pick them up.
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Let me know if you want me to hold the ship.
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I'll talk to Deepak and get back to you. Hold for now.
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So over the past 3 years I have nearly replaced everything in my system. I have a tube pre and I should keep good NOS back up tubes. Whats a man to do? TUBE ROLLIN!! I'm scouring the internet to figure out what type 6SN7 to buy. It can make a man crazy! Leaning towards a TungSol from the 1950's 6SN7GT White Label.
Thank you to Pete for loaning me some matched pairs to try in my system. Right now I have the Raytheon's in the Pre. Observations to follow.
Jim-bo,
You want to lose your mind??? I have ~ 15 MATCHED pairs of vintage 6SN7GT's you can try... Mainly all USA-made with a British Brimar pair mixed in...
Also, I can give you a copy of VTV 6SN7 shoot-out with comments & ratings... That will surely put you over the edge!
Happy Nervosa!
Pete
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OK so here are the matched pairs i am trying in my system:
GE 6SN7 GTB
Raytheon 6SN7W
Tungsol 6SN7GTB (NOS not reissue)
RCA red base 5692
So far I have had the Raytheon and RCA in the preamp. I'll spend a bit more time with them and the others before i give detailed comments. However I will say that the RCA is a very nice tube that I have read mixed reviews about.
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A good bunch. Should prove interesting as to the different characters of the tube sets.
charles
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OK so here are the matched pairs i am trying in my system:
GE 6SN7 GTB
Raytheon 6SN7W
Tungsol 6SN7GTB (NOS not reissue)
RCA red base 5692
So far I have had the Raytheon and RCA in the preamp. I'll spend a bit more time with them and the others before i give detailed comments. However I will say that the RCA is a very nice tube that I have read mixed reviews about.
SYNERGY, dude!... It's all about SYNERGY!!!
My $0.02,
Pete
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OK so here are the matched pairs i am trying in my system:
GE 6SN7 GTB
Raytheon 6SN7W
Tungsol 6SN7GTB (NOS not reissue)
RCA red base 5692
So far I have had the Raytheon and RCA in the preamp. I'll spend a bit more time with them and the others before i give detailed comments. However I will say that the RCA is a very nice tube that I have read mixed reviews about.
SYNERGY, dude!... It's all about SYNERGY!!!
My $0.02,
Pete
Hey isn't that Bills line? :lol:
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It is about knowing the sonic character of tube brands and types. Once that is accomplished then synergy is easier to get.
Just replaced the famed tele 12AT7 [ vintage tube Service ] with Gold Lion reissues [ thanks richidoo ] and to my ears better in my application. In direct comparison the Tele was HI Fi sounding. not ALL NOS tubes are right sonic wise. One just need hands on experience to find out.
Keep rolling, gain experience and be happy. Remember one size does NOT fit all.
charles
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Tube rollin can be fun. It is cool to listen to the impact different tubes have on your system. It is always good to have spares on hand. If anyone needs various budget 12AU7, 12AT7 or 12AX7 tubes for tube rolling pleasure let me know. I have a bunch available.
As for me I may be done with old stock tubes. I had a pair of GE 5751 tubes go bad and then a pair of Raytheon black plate 12AU7s go bad too. I have re-issue tubes that were thoroughly tested as well and have had good results so far. The Gold Lion 12AU7s are a delight and to my surprise in my Jolida DAC the Sovtek 12AX7LPS tubes are wonderful.
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Sleepyguy24,
Which 12AU7 have found to sound best in the pre?
Mike
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Sleepyguy24,
Which 12AU7 have found to sound best in the pre?
Mike
Hi Mike,
With the BellaMax Pre I bought from you I found Raytheon Black Plate 12Au7s with D getters sounded the best until recently when I found those tubes started causing a hum. I then switched them out for a pair of Gold Lion 12AU7s from Upscale Audio and am very happy. I think the Gold Lions are quieter than what I originally had.
Thanks
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The Harmonix 12AU7 with cryo treatment from the tubeman would be my reco to try. Using a gold Lion 12AT7 for my CDP ith VG results. Both are VG just different.
charles
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OK so here are the matched pairs i am trying in my system:
Raytheon 6SN7W
RCA red base 5692
So far I have had the Raytheon and RCA in the preamp. I'll spend a bit more time with them and the others before i give detailed comments. However I will say that the RCA is a very nice tube that I have read mixed reviews about.
Heard these at Jim's on Monday. Here's my impression:
Raytheon 6SN7W - nice balance, with good dynamics and a decent tone. Tight bass and good highs with plenty of detail on leading edge transients without fatigue or zing
RCA red base 5692 - beautiful mids especially on vocals and horns, somewhat slower sounding than the Raytheon with a fuller but less tight bass, top was somewhat reticent
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The second set of tubes that we were comparing were actually the RCA Grey Glass. My Bad if I didn't make that clear (no pun intended).
In general I found that comparing mid grade NOS tubes against each other revealed only subtle differences. Note that exotic NOS tubes were not auditioned. However, most NOS are way better than the cheap generic tubes that are supplied in the initial purchase of my preamp.
I have just purchased a pair of Shuguang Black Treasure tubes. From everything I have read the performance is supposed to be stellar and not lumped together in the same class as other Chinese tubes. I'll report on that when I get time with them.
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Rolling tubes is like crack cocaine. Yo :shock:u can't get enough!
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Look on the top of the RCA box for the tube info. Best place to look is on the tube. You may have to look very carefully for the worn designation.
The top Belles Statement VT-01 preamp review on Dagogo shows the Dayton film output caps still being used in 2011 version. But it has tube output stage like 21A. If you have cooling slots in the cover you can peer inside with a flashlight. They are large black with yellow caps. They are inexpensive and maybe Dave Belles likes them in the same way I like $6 Shuguang 12AU7s. :rofl: Carlman had a great improvement when he replaced his with Roederstein caps. Hometheaterdoc used 22A for a while, he did a lot of tube rolling, maybe he'll chime in.
PM your address. I'll try to dig them up! You'll have to open the preamp to change the tubes. :-P
So I opened up the Belles and took pictures of the Caps. The first 2 pics are Daytons. Not sure what the 3rd pic is? Please recommend replacements and be as specific as possible since I am new to this game.
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Hi Paul.
Post a picture of the entire preamp from above so we can see what caps do what.
My friend Sol recapped Carl's Belles 21A with excellent results, replacing the stock Dayton caps. But 21A has no solid state output buffer like 22A does, iirc, so the caps are doing different things. Your 15uF cap is a big one, so it is coupling something with low impedance, maybe that's the discreet SS output stage?
You basically want to replace the dayton film caps (horizontal with yellow ends.) The electrolytic (vertical cans) are power supply, they are OK.
I personally like Jantsen Superior Z caps for great sound at a good price. Parts express sells them. Make sure they will physically fit before you buy, check dimensions of stock (caps are sized in mm widthxlength.) Some boutique brands are huge. Any film cap that is bipolar, with same voltage rating (250V) and capacitance rating (15uF, etc) will work.
I will check with Sol about which caps he put in Carl's (Mallory, iirc?) I know they were not an audiophile brand, but Carl was thrilled with them even though he originally wanted boutique audiophile status brand. But almost anything will be better than Dayton, except Solen.
Pls post plan view. Rich
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http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/loudspeaker-components/crossovers-components/capacitors/dmpc-2-2-2-2uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor.html
15 x 31mm
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/loudspeaker-components/crossovers-components/capacitors/dffc-0-01-0-01uf-400v-by-pass-capacitor.html
6x18mm
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/loudspeaker-components/crossovers-components/capacitors/dmpc-15-15uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor.html
25 x 56mm
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Sol replied:
"The smaller caps aren't in the signal path and I never bothered with them in Carl's. 150224J630LE is the Mallory 0.22uF 630V cap and in parallel, I used the Panasonic ECA-2EM220 22uF 250V electrolytic. This replaced the four 15uF Dayton capacitors. I'd like to see more to be sure. Just be sure to orient the electrolytic in the correct direction..."
The bypass film is used to improve the highs of the electrolytic. If you use a high quality large film cap you may not need a bypass cap. But large films that don't need bypasses to help the highs are expensive.
In Carl's preamp the output coupling caps value was increased from 15uF to 22uF to improve the bass playing into Carl's McIntosh amplifier with 10k input impedance, by lowering the -3dB point and reducing phase error. Your 15uF coupling cap is playing into the preamp's own SS output stage whose impedance is factored into the choice of 15uF, so maybe 15uF is adequate.
I use these for everything, love them, but my taste is questionable:
http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-15uf-800v-z-superior-capacitor--027-498
I asked Sol again about the 2.2s, why he thinks they are not in signal path, he replied:
"I remember something like that in Carl's. The B+ is regulated and I think they were for compensation circuits. I'll be able to tell more when I see a more detailed picture..."
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Took more pictures. Let me know if any more pics are needed
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Soup yet !!! Hey Putz.
charles
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Sol says 15uF is fine to replace the 15uF, you don't need larger capacity. He doesn't have any suggestions for a large film cap. He says forget about the 2.2uF and its bypass, just leave them. Hopefully others will chime in with some of their favorite suggestions for big film caps.
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Did anyone consult with Belles on this mod ? Just curious.
charles
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Just a follow up to a long ago post. I have had Brimar Cv181's installed in my Modwright Pre. I have had sufficient time to get used to them and I must say they are damn good.
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Let me try to sum this up and I will run it by David Belles for his thoughts once you confirm what should be done.
There are 4 issues that I would like to clarify:
1. 15 uf output coupling cap. Replace with a 15 uf like the Jantzen you recommended. The Jantzen is 800V. The Dayton is 250V. Is that a problem?
2. 2.2 uf cap. Leave them alone?
3. Electrolytic vertical cans. These are in my 3rd picture on Page 2 and are marked 33000 uf? (Please confirm that). I should leave these alone?
4. You mentioned a large film cap and not having any suggestions. Which cap is that (??uf) and should I replace.
Thanks for all your help and I am almost there as far as understanding all this.
Paul
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1. Voltage rating is the max voltage the cap can handle. Increasing the voltage rating is OK. The downside is increased physical size. Improved sound quality often is larger size, too.
2. 2.2uF caps are not in the audio signal path, so upgrading these will not noticeably improve the SQ. Same with the .01 caps near the 2.2s.
3. The electrolytic caps are power supply filters, also not in audio signal path. Leave those alone.
4. I was referring to Sol's last response. He doesn't use boutique parts, so he didn't have a boutique high voltage film cap suggestion for the 15uF. He used Panny electro with reliable industrial brand film bypass on Carl's, and of course it works well because engineering. I like my cult beliefs and still use boutique parts, Sol agrees sometimes they sound better. He is not idealogical audiophile, just what works for lowest cost and effort.
I think most people here would say Jantzens aren't really that great compared to Teflon, clarity duelund, whatever and that's true, they are relatively cheap for high end caps. There's a lot of articles about best coupling caps on the net. Just remember you need 15uF or higher, and you need 250v or higher, and small enough to fit under the lid.
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Did anyone consult with Belles on this mod ? Just curious.
charles
Belles designs to a price. It is very high value design. There very few caps worse than Dayton. The improvement is extreme.
Edit: Sorry terse, wrote in a hurry on a cellphone... oops
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Cool. Was just curious.
charles
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Look on the top of the RCA box for the tube info. Best place to look is on the tube. You may have to look very carefully for the worn designation.
The top Belles Statement VT-01 preamp review on Dagogo shows the Dayton film output caps still being used in 2011 version. But it has tube output stage like 21A. If you have cooling slots in the cover you can peer inside with a flashlight. They are large black with yellow caps. They are inexpensive and maybe Dave Belles likes them in the same way I like $6 Shuguang 12AU7s. :rofl: Carlman had a great improvement when he replaced his with Roederstein caps. Hometheaterdoc used 22A for a while, he did a lot of tube rolling, maybe he'll chime in.
PM your address. I'll try to dig them up! You'll have to open the preamp to change the tubes. :-P
So I opened up the Belles and took pictures of the Caps. The first 2 pics are Daytons. Not sure what the 3rd pic is? Please recommend replacements and be as specific as possible since I am new to this game.
the third picture is of Panasonic electrolytics. They are good quality main power supply bulk capacitors (ECO series... Soon to be discontinued), good nonetheless.
The Dayton film and foils are stupid good for their price. I'm like +3 on the Jantzen Supremes. Great sounding over achievers. They simply kill for their cost in some applications... Like this one.
YMMV, of course, but if you don't like them I would probably buy them from you. Just sayin' ...
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[[/quote]the third picture is of Panasonic electrolytics. They are good quality main power supply bulk capacitors (ECO series... Soon to be discontinued), good nonetheless.
The Dayton film and foils are stupid good for their price. I'm like +3 on the Jantzen Supremes. Great sounding over achievers. They simply kill for their cost in some applications... Like this one.
YMMV, of course, but if you don't like them I would probably buy them from you. Just sayin' ...
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Thanks for the +3 on the Jantzens. I am looking at them and also at the Mundorf 15.0 mfd Supreme Caps. Any thoughts on the Mundorfs? I'm depending on the kindness of strangers to guide me.
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Look up your candidates here:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
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Wow, this is like the holy grail of Capacitor reviews. Thanks.
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Wow, this is like the holy grail of Capacitor reviews. Thanks.
Yep not bad for a tube Rollin thread ;)