Author Topic: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance  (Read 11116 times)

Offline rollo

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Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« on: July 31, 2017, 01:26:01 PM »
  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass.


charles
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Offline topround

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 03:09:52 PM »
The question should be
Is your room big enough to make 20 hz?
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Hugh

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 03:57:01 PM »
  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass.


charles

You mean you expect a speaker to be able to go down to 20Hz at $5K price point?

Is there such a thing in existence?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 04:01:44 PM by Hugh »
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Offline topround

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 04:00:31 PM »
I want mine to go down to 11
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 05:45:31 PM »
Depends on how loud you want the bass since most distortion modes for speakers increase exponentially with SPL. Even very good bass speakers can still have 10% distortion at 20Hz 90dB while mid and tweeters can be below .1%.

And Mike is absolutely right, the biggest source of bass distortion in a normal sized house is gonna be room modes from too small rooms. https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/

So here's a bass strategy that drastically reduces both speaker distortion and room distortion and cost:
Put the largest possible bass driver you can afford like 18" (for maximum acoustic impedence = detail, lowest distortion because minimum excursion) and place it as close as possible to your head at listening position. On a stand behind you, or hanging from ceiling above you, etc. The closer it is, the more you can to turn down the bass level to match the distant main speakers and achieve flat FR. The actual SPL from the bass drivers will be very low, minimizing room and speaker distortion, and increase headroom dramatically, maybe like 20dB! Don't be tempted to use a small bass driver that can more easily fit on a stand or WAF, because a small cone has poor acoustic impededence and gives up detail and adds distortion, the liability increasing with lower frequencies and lower volumes.  You need a large cone to play soft and keep the detail and slam.

It's inexpensive because you can use a smaller amp, and you need less room treatment. In smaller house rooms you can only do so much with treatments. They can't cure everything. So keep physics on your side.

The bass from commercial speakers I've heard is Legacy Whisper. Each side has 4 15" drivers in open baffle. I heard a tenor blues singer accompanied by a tuba. OMG, unbelievable bass detail dynamics and realism! Acoustic impedance at bass frequencies is good, not as good as any cheap tweeter, but far far better than a 6" woofer trying to play 40Hz.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:00:15 PM by richidoo »

Offline Nick B

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 09:08:51 PM »
Bass has always...and probably will continue to be...the lacking element in my system. It's been the least of my priorities and likely because it would be the hardest to achieve. The SP Tech is a two way with a small midwoofer. My room is likely too small as well.
I've always thought highly of Bill Dudleston and Legacy. An interesting and less costly experiment might be for me to try a Hsu sub. But placing it behind me...I think my wife wouldn't allow it
Nick
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Offline rollo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 08:06:25 AM »
  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass.


charles

You mean you expect a speaker to be able to go down to 20Hz at $5K price point?

Is there such a thing in existence?

  Yes I do.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline rollo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 08:09:29 AM »
The question should be
Is your room big enough to make 20 hz?

   Good point. However not a concern for this discussion. Lets assume the room can produce the bass.



charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline rollo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 08:11:31 AM »
Bass has always...and probably will continue to be...the lacking element in my system. It's been the least of my priorities and likely because it would be the hardest to achieve. The SP Tech is a two way with a small midwoofer. My room is likely too small as well.
I've always thought highly of Bill Dudleston and Legacy. An interesting and less costly experiment might be for me to try a Hsu sub. But placing it behind me...I think my wife wouldn't allow it
Nick

  Nick you could put that HSU under a table behind you set out of phase and both be happy. Yes a nice table with a cloth over the sides to hide the beast a glass of wine and babies come. Oh my !    However if you had a speaker for the right price which did 20HZ or 25HZ game over so my point of the post.

charles


« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:13:09 AM by rollo »
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline Nick B

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 09:26:39 AM »
Bass has always...and probably will continue to be...the lacking element in my system. It's been the least of my priorities and likely because it would be the hardest to achieve. The SP Tech is a two way with a small midwoofer. My room is likely too small as well.
I've always thought highly of Bill Dudleston and Legacy. An interesting and less costly experiment might be for me to try a Hsu sub. But placing it behind me...I think my wife wouldn't allow it
Nick

  Nick you could put that HSU under a table behind you set out of phase and both be happy. Yes a nice table with a cloth over the sides to hide the beast a glass of wine and babies come. Oh my !    However if you had a speaker for the right price which did 20HZ or 25HZ game over so my point of the post.

charles

A nice thought, Charles. I need to sell my living room cabinet to make more room for my "stuff". Might be feasible in a year.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
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PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline topround

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 04:43:21 PM »
I just heard Gregs latest iteration of his speakers today
, a single full range panel with no crossover.
I believe it was 40 hz to 6K and man it sounded great. Big deep image tremendous separation and tone oh my!
This was not a finished set of panels , they were just assembled last night and he said he had a lot more work to do to the panels before they could be considered done. But even in this early stage of build they sounded great.
Of course they get better with the tweeters and the subs,which will be built next, but oh my! it was wonderful.

40 hz seems good enough for me, a little more weight that the subs would provide would be  nicer but I don't see the need to go down to 20 hz, unless you play organ music and can hear 20 hz!
I think 20 hz is just for bragging rights.
Like in cars they brag about horsepower,, horsepower sells cars but torque wins the race, but no one even cares or knows about torque.

So for me 20 hz was and is a sales ploy, preying on the insecure audiophile, like the little guy with a big truck, or the little guy with the big mean dog, I always say big truck little pee pee....

So if your speakers don't go down to 20 hz , don't feel bad, because honestly your room can't make it anyway...

Just my opinion, all flavored and colored up to my liking,,,,,
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 04:44:55 PM by topround »
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 05:37:09 PM »
The sub 20Hz capability is seldom used in my system, but I will admit to enjoying organ music at high SPLs.
 It may not be an absolute requirement for an "Audiophile" approved speaker system, but it is a frequently used benchmark.
32Hz is the threshold where bass is equally heard and felt, frequencies below 32Hz are progressively felt more than heard as a tone. When test signals below 25Hz are played back in my listening room it is as though there is something present in the room with you, but you can tell exactly what it is. Spooky in word. Great way to "haunt" a house.
The last octave from 20 to 40Hz. is where hall ambiance in classical music lives. The recreation of the artificially created acoustic space found in some studio recordings is also very dependent on the low frequency extension the speaker system has.
Scotty
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:47:35 PM by _Scotty_ »

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 07:42:42 PM »
^ :)

I agree that the lowest octave adds a ton of drama and emotion and is valuable to a music lover. Humans are programmed genetically to fear loud and low noises, so ultra-LF content triggers our reptile brain to squirt adrenaline. Composers know this and put the musical thunder in there deliberately. Prokofiev is an awesome composer for symphonic bass drum. Check this particular recording of Lt. Kije Suite, a film soundtrack he wrote in the 20s. People love their hotrods and Harleys, airshows, Niagara Falls and sonic booms for the incomparable thrill of the sound. U2's huge concert sound was from the bassist's foot operated synth bass doubling under his fender bass the root notes in the chorus. Awesome!

If the bass rolls off too high like in mid-bass then you get phase shift with the rolloff. This phase distortion, or group delay is said to be the cause of the infamous "slow bass." All bass is slow of course, but time misalignment with the midrange where the speed information happens makes bass sound separate from the music and slow. The lower and flatter the bass extends, the lower the phase shift happens, so ideally, with flat extension to 20Hz or below, the rolloff and the phase distortion happen below the "audible" range and you don't have the dreaded slow bass.

But to reach 20Hz and still have some grip on the air to make musical texture and not just sine waves you need excellent acoustic impedance to the surrounding air. Which means several very large diaphragms with large excursion, or an air to air transducer, like reflex port or organ pipe. The smaller the bass driver cone, the worse the impedance to the air, the more sloppy the grip, the softer the SPL and the more the sound is like a sine wave, no texture at all and no excitement. You need largest area diaphragm possible to get the ultra LF texture and detail. The larger the better because these LF wavelengths are 50 feet long, played by a 1.5 foot cone. Compare that to a tweeter playing a 1.5" wavelength at 10kHz with a 1" diaphragm, it takes only a couple watts to play just as loud as the bass driver using 1000W at 20hz. We love the tweeter detail, we love the bass detail, but that's a bit harder and more expensive to pull off.

And there is plenty of detail down there. Fender bass makes mostly sine waves, so small drivers don't hurt too bad playing classic rock, but synths and acoustic instruments make far more texture. Square wave bass is what the kids really want -
 the sound of alien laser guns blowing up planets. For instance I have a recording of Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture. It has full size military artillery cannons shooting outside. You can hear the reflections of the booms bouncing off nearby hills or buildings and there is all kind of other reflection information in that .5 second delay. It was all audible on my old Legacy Focus 2020 speakers with 3  12" woofers and two 2" reflex ports per side. No other speaker I've had since then could match it. I connected NuForce amps directly to the speakers and play the full 2V line signal into them with no attenuation. I stood 40 feet away in the kitchen cooking dinner, but that incredible bass would have me falling on the floor overcome with emotion. Yes, it's worth it, and it's musical, not just a audiophile trick.

The audible range is not the limit of perception. We can feel the vibrations below what we can hear with ears. If the transducer has sufficient acoustic impedance to affect the surrounding air then you can feel the subsonic vibration in the air.

You can hear texture and detail in LF sound just like you can hear it in thunderclap made by a 2 mile long "line array" lightning bolt. No driver cone has big enough area to do that, so it must be created by an air to air transducer, like an organ pipe or reflex port, or lightning bolt.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 07:57:16 PM »
I am lucky that my wife cares more about how a system sounds than how it looks. Two twelves per side in the mains and 2 other subs in the room to flatten bass response irregularities.
 Funny thing, my speakers are almost the same size as the Legacy 2020s at 55.5in. X 14.5in. X 17.5in. and 185lbs. in weight. slot loaded front port.
Something to do with physics.  ;)
Scotty

Offline Nick B

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 09:00:20 PM »
^ :)

I agree that the lowest octave adds a ton of drama and emotion and is valuable to a music lover. Humans are programmed genetically to fear loud and low noises, so ultra-LF content triggers our reptile brain to squirt adrenaline. Composers know this and put the musical thunder in there deliberately. Prokofiev is an awesome composer for symphonic bass drum. Check this particular recording of Lt. Kije Suite, a film soundtrack he wrote in the 20s. People love their hotrods and Harleys, airshows, Niagara Falls and sonic booms for the incomparable thrill of the sound. U2's huge concert sound was from the bassist's foot operated synth bass doubling under his fender bass the root notes in the chorus. Awesome!

If the bass rolls off too high like in mid-bass then you get phase shift with the rolloff. This phase distortion, or group delay is said to be the cause of the infamous "slow bass." All bass is slow of course, but time misalignment with the midrange where the speed information happens makes bass sound separate from the music and slow. The lower and flatter the bass extends, the lower the phase shift happens, so ideally, with flat extension to 20Hz or below, the rolloff and the phase distortion happen below the "audible" range and you don't have the dreaded slow bass.

But to reach 20Hz and still have some grip on the air to make musical texture and not just sine waves you need excellent acoustic impedance to the surrounding air. Which means several very large diaphragms with large excursion, or an air to air transducer, like reflex port or organ pipe. The smaller the bass driver cone, the worse the impedance to the air, the more sloppy the grip, the softer the SPL and the more the sound is like a sine wave, no texture at all and no excitement. You need largest area diaphragm possible to get the ultra LF texture and detail. The larger the better because these LF wavelengths are 50 feet long, played by a 1.5 foot cone. Compare that to a tweeter playing a 1.5" wavelength at 10kHz with a 1" diaphragm, it takes only a couple watts to play just as loud as the bass driver using 1000W at 20hz. We love the tweeter detail, we love the bass detail, but that's a bit harder and more expensive to pull off.

And there is plenty of detail down there. Fender bass makes mostly sine waves, so small drivers don't hurt too bad playing classic rock, but synths and acoustic instruments make far more texture. Square wave bass is what the kids really want -
 the sound of alien laser guns blowing up planets. For instance I have a recording of Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture. It has full size military artillery cannons shooting outside. You can hear the reflections of the booms bouncing off nearby hills or buildings and there is all kind of other reflection information in that .5 second delay. It was all audible on my old Legacy Focus 2020 speakers with 3  12" woofers and two 2" reflex ports per side. No other speaker I've had since then could match it. I connected NuForce amps directly to the speakers and play the full 2V line signal into them with no attenuation. I stood 40 feet away in the kitchen cooking dinner, but that incredible bass would have me falling on the floor overcome with emotion. Yes, it's worth it, and it's musical, not just a audiophile trick.

The audible range is not the limit of perception. We can feel the vibrations below what we can hear with ears. If the transducer has sufficient acoustic impedance to affect the surrounding air then you can feel the subsonic vibration in the air.

You can hear texture and detail in LF sound just like you can hear it in thunderclap made by a 2 mile long "line array" lightning bolt. No driver cone has big enough area to do that, so it must be created by an air to air transducer, like an organ pipe or reflex port, or lightning bolt.


Thanks for your perspective, Rich. Maybe some day I can experience that in my surroundings.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS