Author Topic: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009  (Read 18697 times)

Offline stereofool

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 01:48:28 PM »
I'm still IN  :drool:!!!
Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline richidoo

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 02:35:25 PM »
I'm coming, and Sol too. RichardS is riding with me. RobS is still planning to come, will arrive directly at your place, so he might show up a little early. I gave him your address and cellphone.  I wil bring some kind of vegetable food. Then we will hold you down and force you to eat it.

Last two days I have been making a nice little box for the BuffaloDAC, it came out nice, but plain. You can paint it or contact paper it, or sell it. I dropped it at Sol's house this afternoon. He will mod the DAC tonight and stuff the box. It will be ready! But I'm sure it won't be the final version. I for one want a tube output version.  All in good time.  The Altmann DAC is halfway to Australia by now and I am very happy for the upgrade.  I wil bring my stock Buffalo to compare to Sol's upgrade.
Rich

Bigfish8

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 03:19:21 PM »
Shane:

I am planning to be there!  I will ask Vera to make something and try to advise you in the AM about what she is agreeable to making!

Ken

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 03:29:55 PM »
I'll be there early (4ish) but I'm afraid I'll only be there for an hour or two... Too much going on...

See you then!

Offline Carlman

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 05:57:04 PM »
I'll probably be coming a bit later... it'll be a busy day... going to Rick's to hear my speakers compared stock vs. upgraded at 3, which should be fun :) ... but might take a while.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Bigfish8

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 06:12:57 PM »
I'll probably be coming a bit later... it'll be a busy day... going to Rick's to hear my speakers compared stock vs. upgraded at 3, which should be fun :) ... but might take a while.

-C

Carl:

When we see you we hope to see you smiling from ear to ear!

Ken

Offline stereofool

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2009, 09:34:10 PM »
Shane,

Thank you for your hospitality!!!  Your new house is very nice, indeed.

I can't say that I did that much listening tonight, especially in the 'sweet-spot'. I was just as happy catching up with most of the gang. It's always so great to be around such a great group of guys.

Looking forward to the next G2G  :drool:.
Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline richidoo

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2009, 10:16:01 PM »
Thanks Shane and Melissa. You have a beautiful home, and it was a great party.  I enjoyed the DAC comparison, the Harbeth C7 and LFD Zero, and the main system of course. And seeing so many friends together for the first time in a long time. Great g2g/...

Rich

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 05:04:42 AM »
Ditto what Rich and Steve said.   Thanks Shane.   Sorry I had to leave so early but it's always great to catch up with everyone and put a face with the many people I meet online here. 

Bigfish8

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 06:51:36 AM »
A very special thank you to Shane and Melissa for hosting a wonderful G2G last night.  Shane and Melissa have a beautiful home that would be the envy of any audio or home theater movie lover! 

It was great to see all of the local gang again and it was nice that some new guys were able to attend.  Also, I have traded messages with RobS from West Virginia for a long time and it was nice to finally be able to meet him.

Shane had far to much gear for me to remember half of it.  The Harbeth 40.1 speakers in the main 2 channel room downstairs have a very nice sound and classic looks of box speakers dating back to my college days.  They were being powered by an LFD MCSE integrated amp.  Guys, I was really impressed with this amp and it's little brother upstairs.

I think the only serious gear comparison of the evening was with two Twisted Pear Buffalo32 DACs against the Oracle.  One of the Buffalo 32's was stock and the other had some upgraded parts.  While I believe the consensus was that the Oracle presented the music with more weight the Buffalo's were extremely impressive.  The Oracle is without question the best DAC we have heard at any of our G2G's.  However, the Buffalo's are magnificent and when you consider they are roughly 1/10th the price of the Oracle it makes them an incredible value.  I believe our whole group was extremely impressed.  Also, it was funny to watch Carlman having to be the remote control on the floor by the amp as the LFD has no remote.

Shane had a system set-up upstairs and had us listen to a pair of Harbeth P3ESR in rosewood finish & Compact 7ES-3 speakers in Cherry Finish.  These speakers were powered by the small LFD amp.  The 7ES are great and are prefect to run full range in a smaller room.  For me the P3ESR were very special and would be ideal as mains in an HT system running with a sub.  Guys, I loved these speakers and the WAF would be off the chart! 

I will end now by saying I really enjoy spending time with this group.  The guys have tremendous experience with audio systems and have helped me so much in avoiding foolish investments.

Shane, thanks again.

Ken




« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 06:56:42 AM by Bigfish8 »

Offline Carlman

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2009, 07:23:20 AM »
A Big Thanks to Shane and Melissa from me too!  I really appreciated you opening your home to us and sharing all your nice gear.  I know a LOT of work has gone into it and you're really defining your space and gear in a way that's progressed a long way (since I've known you).  It's fun to follow along on your audio journey.

I got a little seat time on the gear and was a human remote for a while also... and I'll echo Ken's comments about the DAC comparison.. I can also say that in that system, the Oracle didn't sound as aggresive to me as I expected.  The Harbeth/LFD combo was a bit polite but still revealing.  I couldn't wrap my head around it.  I can't just say it's warm and musical.. it was.. but it's also detailed and punchy.. and it's not just neutral either.. so, the system is hard to describe other than saying 'a bit polite'.

One nice thing about this G2G is that it was walking distance from my home... so I could just party all night with no regrets! Right? hahaha.. well.. 'wee-fun' has converted to 'where's my coffee? oy my head!'... but so be it.. I had a great time and thoroughly enjoyed meeting new folks and chatting with everyone. 

I hope Rob brings his bike next time...  And I hope Jim participates with us more as well.

Thanks again!

Carl

I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2009, 07:35:02 AM »
Really nice Ken. It was a very special night, everyone felt good, lots of love in the air. I agree with your take on the pretty Harbeths. Hard to believe a speaker such a innocuous looking box could make such extreme sounds. The synergy with the LFDs was extremely good. PRat, detail, refinement, looks, it's all there. And the price/performance is excellent value too. My "make a change" hormones were stimulated when I first heard the C7/Zero combo!

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2009, 07:54:19 AM »
First off, thanks to everyone who attended.  It was great to see old friends and meet a few new folks.  I appreciate you all taking the time to stop by and socialize, as well as listen to a little bit of music.

Because there were so many combinations and permutations of gear possible, as is typical with one of our meets, there was no way to get to everything and hear everything, especially in a comparison type situation... After everyone heading out around midnight, Sol stayed behind for what was supposed to be a few minutes... But after listening to his I30 for a few minutes, we swapped in the Butler Monads and honestly, we got far and away the best sound of the night, imo.  Pretty soon it was 1:30AM and someone was not happy with me that I was keeping her up blasting music :) hehe  I wish we had put the Butlers in the system earlier in the evening for folks to hear.... I need to have another meet very soon :)  We didn't listen to the Belles stuff at all and initial listening on the Belles preamp was *very* positive even with no time on the unit at all....

I look forward to hearing others thoughts on sound.  Don't hold anything back or be polite.  Since almost all of the listening was done downstairs in the 2 channel room and almost exclusively with the LFD NCSE integrated, I'm sure most opinions will be centered on that.  The Harbeths are a different animal than I've had in my systems before.  We listened at a volume level most of the night that would make the designer shake his head and we listened to a variety of music that I didn't think the Harbeths would excel, but they did all right for the most part.  Curious to hear other's thoughts on the subject....

The evening got underway with Rob S., Bigfish and JimJ arriving relatively close together.  I was still in grilling mode at that time to get food ready.  So other than a few quick passes through the place, it was mostly socializing out by the grill.  Ken brought along his Transporter at my request and we spent a while trying to get that connected.  I futzed with my new wireless router that was acting very differently than my old one and we finally got that up and going... not the last computer setup issue of the evening, unfortunately.

In the main 2 channel room downstairs, initial listening was done with my audio PC feeding AES/EBU into the Exemplar DAC to the LFD NCSE integrated amplifier to the Harbeth Monitor 40.1s.  Cabling was JPS Labs SC3 speaker and digital, with a pair of Aluminata interconnects, a couple Digital AC+ power cords on PC and DAC and a Kaptovator powering the LFD.  The Exemplar DAC was plugged into a Running Springs Audio Dmitri that has a JPS Labs 20A Kaptovator.  All power circuits are dedicated 20A circuits wired with JPS Labs PowerAC inwall romex that's the equivalent of 10 gauge but seems bigger when you're trying to wire it into a receptacle :).  This is the setup that I had been listening to since the Exemplar arrived the day before... but given how much I had left to do in the upstairs audio room before folks arrived, I didn't do a ton of listening, just breaks in between tasks.  I like the Exemplar.  It's a touch aggressive for my tastes compared to the Oracle DAC1000, but I'm curious to hear it feeding a preamp into the Butler Monads.  It might balance well.  It does have pretty darn good bass and soundstaging and imaging are very good.     

We introduced Ken's Transporter into the system and it had his Black Sands Silver Ref V power cord on it. It was feeding analog into the LFD via a pair of JPS Labs SC3 interconnects.  Unfortunately, in my haste to get things up and running, I plugged the Transporter directly into the wall instead of matching it up and plugging it into the RSA Dmitri like all the other digital gear.  So comparing back and forth with the Exemplar, each piece had a different sound that I don't know for sure was the component or was the difference in power conditioned versus not power conditioned. 

Folks listened to the Transporter equipped setup for a while.  It was too aggressive and a touch shrill for me.  It was a bit more ragged up top than the Exemplar, but had more growl and heft in the bottom end.  I really want to hear the Transporter again in a controlled same environment.  I'd like to compare it powered the same against another DAC or three.

After listening to Ken's Transporter exclusively for a while, we swapped back to the Exemplar DAC and listened again to a lot of the same tracks to compare.  We used one Eric Clapton track playing on both to swap back and forth to hear the differences.  The Exemplar then stayed in the signal path for a while until it was time to do a bit of a DAC off, which took up a large portion of the rest of the evening.

Sol has been doing some surgery on a Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo32 DAC "kit" that I bought in hopes of finding something that could compete with the Oracle Audio DAC1000 for a lot less money.  Rich has a stock kit built that we previously heard at my place a few weeks ago that Sol used as a basis for figuring out what he wanted to do to change it up.  He literally finished soldering the unit together a few minutes before he drove to my place for the get together.  I was curious to hear it though, even with it being straight out of the box as it were with no time on the caps, etc... no time like the present to hear what it could do... so I took over the sweet spot for ~15 minutes to hear the unit.  After getting a feel for it, I invited others in to have a little comparison session.

Eventually we got the wiring figured out and had three DACs connected to the LFD integrated amplifier.  We had to somewhat cheat as it's difficult with only one source with one digital out capability to quickly swap in between things.  This is where the extreme flexibility of the Oracle DAC1000 came in.  It's got multiple digital outs to go along with its slew of analog and digital inputs.  So we went AES/EBU digital in to the Oracle and it served as one of the DACs.  We then used the digital outs of it to feed the two Buffalo32 DAC kits; Rich's stock unit that he has now broken in and the new Sol modified version.  Digital cables were again JPS and the analog outputs of each DAC were identical pairs of SC3 RCA ICs feeding the LFD.  Power was all plugged into the RSA Dmitri.  Power cords were JPS Digital AC+ for the Oracle and Sol modded kit, a captive generic on Rich's unit.

I'll let others comment on the difference between the units.  I'll say that it was closer than it had any right to be given the price differential.  I still prefer the Oracle and could pick it out easily amongst the three units.  But that ESS chip sure is a good chip.  I'm curious to do this again after I get some time on the modded unit and everything has had a chance to break in.  I will say that both Rich's and Sol's modded unit got a lot better after they were plugged in and turned on for a while.  The oracle sounds better when it's left on for a while as well, but it isn't nearly as dramatic a difference as I noted last night with the Twisted Pear units.  I want to give special thanks to Carl who suffered through doing the manual switching and volume adjustment on the LFD so that everyone else could sit back, listen, and compare between the units.  Hopefully he's not too sore from the injuries he sustained from all that twisting ;)

A big chunk of folks started filtering out after the DAC comparison.  After a bit more socializing and general listening, those remaining in attendance wanted to listen upstairs to the smaller Harbeth units.  So up we went.  After some computer networking issues where my upgrade of the Audio PC downstairs to Windows 7 put it in another workgroup and my upstairs Vista machine could see but not access the fileshares of music, we actually did a little listening to first the Harbeth Compact 7s.  A/B comparison of the same NY Rave disk on the Oppo digital Blu Ray player with my bone stock audio PC was interesting.  Both were feeding digital audio into the Peachtree Audio Nova all in one unit.  It has an ESS Sabre DAC chip as well in it as well, just a different version than the one in the Twisted Pear DAC "kits".  I used only the DAC in the Peachtree and went fixed output of it via a pair of JPS Labs SC3 RCA interconnects into the LFD Zero LE III integrated amplifier.  This is the baby brother of the NCSE used in the downstairs system. Speaker cabling was JPS Labs SuperConductor Q single wire as it was the only pair of cables I had with spades small enough to fit into the plastic covered binding posts of the LFD unit.  All my other wires use oversize spades as I have a few amps that need that to make life easier... plus the one pair of cables I had with the locking bananas was in use in the system downstairs...

Anyways, we listened to the Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 for a little bit, then swapped and listened to the new P3ESR mini monitors in Rosewood vener.  Some folks really seemed to like these speakers.  I honestly haven't listened to them enough to draw much of an opinion yet other than they seem to be the most cohesive/integrated of all the speakers I have, but definitely need some bottom end help if you want to really rock out with them.  They are a sealed design with a small midwoofer. 

After some interesting photo opportunities of folks on the elliptical machine, it was at this point that I launched my evil plan on the unsuspecting remaining attendees.  It was a nefarious plan to unload some of my A/V furniture on them that I had left in the house after the change to Salamander equipment racks that "she who shall be obeyed" ordered to hide the gear and wires.  Fire sale pricing at 75+% off my dealer pricing ensued and I got one taker on the 3" thick solid walnut amp stands.  Ken got a nice price on a Star Sound Technologies Sistrum Platform shelf... but no one took the bigger racks off my hands... Had I been more organized and showed off the units to all the other folks that had been in attendance earlier in the evening, I might have found more takers.... I also had a nest of cables that I needed to get rid of as well... I might have been able to entice some folks to help me clear them out of storage... oh well, audiogon I guess.....

After packing up the amp stands, folks started gathering up their things and heading out.  It was midnight by this point....Carl wandered home and others packed up their vehicles and said their goodbyes.  Sol stuck around and we listened to his I30 for a while.  I started cleaning up a bit in between listens so someone wouldn't have a fit when they got home.  I really like the potential in his I30, but it needs more current to get better control on the bass.  It does fall apart a bit when the volume goes up and the amp runs out of power reserves.  Upping this design to have the same power as the I60 I think will make for a nice unit.  We then swapped in the Butler Monads for a listen and I finally started to relax and just enjoy music.  The Butlers really exacerbate the remaining floor and bass trapping issue I need to take care of in the 2 channel room... but they sound so darn good that it's hard not to listen to them. 

Thanks again to everyone who attended.  I had fun and can't wait to do this again. 
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2009, 03:41:07 PM »
RobS stayed at my place last night, so today we continued the exploration with some comparisons of tube amps and DACs.   He had some nice CDs that I had never heard and really liked. Jon Butler?

We compared stereofools ARC VT100mk3 which I just love to his Music Reference RM200.   The RM200 was amazing. It seemed clearer and harder bass. The AR puts a huge tone on everything which make music sound majestic and powerful, even DAC direct, with no preamp. The RM200 is more revealling, leaner and faster, but benefitted greatly from the addition of Sols sweet little Cary slp98 preamp that I am borrowing.   I loved both of these amps.  We asked Henry to join us with his MR RM9 on Friday night, but it didn't come together. That's another really great amp, maybe slightly sweeter highs than the RM200, but not as much bass slam.  The RM200 bass is easily on par with some of th better SS amps I have had visiting. Impact and clarity is amazing.

After the amp comparo, we compared DACs. His VanAlstine T8 DAC vs Buffalo32. The T8 put a nice wholesome glow on this which sounded good on my sparce symphonic recordings, but fuzzed up the audiophilish rock recordings.   The Buffalo was judged to be our favorite. We could not discern any soundstage disadvantage to the opamp powered Buffalo DAC compred to the 6N1P powered T8 DAC.

When we first auditioned the Buffalo at Shanes a week ago, it sounded closed in and syuffy compared to Oracle. The only things I have changed since then are new box made out masonite, and WBT Nexgen RCA analog outputs.  The other thing I changed which probably explains the newfound clarity and openness of the stocker is that I cut some PCB traces as recommended in the Buffalo manual. The explanation for why to cut them was not specific enough, it just said don't cut if you will use for headphones. With amps, cut it to lower output impedance to 22ohms. I don't need 22ohm output impedance going to a 250kOhm inputZ tube amp so I didn't bother cutting the traces, I though I could put a headphone jack on the DAC and get dual use.  But Sol later explained to me that the traces need to be cut if you intend to use the DAC with capacitive cables, or into amplifer. Not just to lower impedance but to greatly enhance stability of the output stage. Sure enough a couple days after original audition at Shanes last week, Sol was over here playing it and we got it to oscillate into Sols i60 amp, making a whistling sound when cable was plugged in.

When I assembled it all into the new box for Shane's g2g, I cut the traces and stuck it into my system while I went to shower for the meet. I took a quick listen and it sure sounded more open to me. If I had not cut the traces DAC "A" would have sounded like shit compared to Sol's DAC "B."   In the end I was absolutely thrilled to hear it come to life as it has, in comparison to the still reigning reference, Oracle DAC1000.

There is a whole thread exploding on diyaudio about what does Buff32 sound like. Many biased bullshit opinions about opamps, blablabla, and some ideas on how to modify the Twisted pear IVY output stage with different opamps and other schemes.   I can't help think that these people dissing the DAC have never heard it and counting angles in a pinhead, or they have nothing better to do than create unnecessary work for themselves.   I would love to hear this DAC play with a great tube output stage, but that's an expensive proposition so may not happen anytime soon.

It will also be interesting to take my stock DAC board and hear it compared to the modded board with the different power supplies. To see the effects Sol's power supply mods had compared to stock PS, and the output mods compared to stock with same PS.

Rob echoed the same advice everyone gives me, hurryup and finish the room treatments and your system will come alive. Iappreciate the advice Rob. It's coming along slowly. I might like to revisit the Usher crossovers again with Rick Craig too. So impressed with what he's done with Piegas.  But they have never sounded better with the MR and AR amps.   Sitll looking forward to hearing the Butler on them for the first time in my house. I did hear the Butlers with my old Legacys but I couldn't make it gel.

I liked the openness and clarity of both LFD amps. The biggun had a lot of balls and powered the 40.1 Harbeths effortlessly.   It had clear and silky highs, no problems with extension or refinement in the high, probably best highs I've ever heard in a SS amp, but they are just to direct and loud, even though Iknow that is flat EQ.   I prefer the calmer treble from tubes. Stick in a Jensen cap on the input and I would probably be very happy with either LFD. I though tthey sounded identical in the treble. The bass were different on the different sized speakers.

I remembered the calm civilized reserved sound of C7 that I loved so much when I heard them at RMAF07. The LFD Zero emphasized the controlled reserved demeanor. I think a snappy 100W AB tube amp in front of the C7s would be ideal, so put some zip into its stride. One of the great things about Harbeth is how well they integrate into any room, even those with mediocre acoutics.   I wonder if the highly damped HT room upstairs was ideal for them. It did allow hyper clear details and max audiophile performance, but relaxed inspired music communication was not as easy, I think they need a looser amp and a looser room to fully show their great value. But Shane likes the controlled low distortion extended audiophile sound, so it is setup perfectly for his enjoyment.

The little speakers did sound balanced and a little more exciting then the C7s but the scale is too small to stand alone, too small for the high price. But the performance is there in the small speaker category. They reminded me of the sound of my first audio systems using Rad Shack $50 aluminum cabinet mini speakers in terms of range, but a lot more refined, of course.

The food was great. Thanks to all the chefs. Steve's oatmeal cookies, Vera's cakes were highlights. Shane, did you enjoy the summer vegetable saute I made just for you?  I put extra broccoli in there just for you.

7pm and I feel the need to go to sleep now....

Offline Carlman

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Re: Audio Get Together - Saturday, Sept. 12th, 2009
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2009, 04:21:44 PM »
Rob just left my place on his way to Shane's.. he said it was going to be a quick stop.. hahahaha
Looking forward to making a trip up to see him sometime later this year.

I wish I could elaborate more on the sound of the systems we heard but I just wasn't seriously listening last night... I was more about emotion and impression.  My overall/summarized feeling was that the Harbeth's aren't really my taste but they're very good speakers.  They have a comfortable sound and do a lot right but I never clicked with them.  Maybe they're dry and I like wet.. I don't know.  I enjoyed hearing them.  I did like the upstairs system better than downstairs.. very cozy and a good nearfield setup.  I was more comfortable listening there and could've stayed a long time in that sweet spot. :)

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.