Author Topic: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?  (Read 6556 times)

Offline mdconnelly

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How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« on: September 15, 2008, 06:06:15 AM »
I am sorry I missed Rich's last G2G, but I'm very curious about how the Modwright Transporter stacked up against the Sonos or Squeezebox.    As you may know, I've got Shane's Oracle CD transport and it definitely is a step up from my Squeezebox (both fed into my Tact).  Even so, I find myself using the Squeezebox far more because of convenience. 

So, if I were in search of a streaming device that could match or better the Oracle transport, where do the following stack up?

-- Transporter
-- Modwright modded Transporter
-- Sonos
-- Duet
-- direct from PC (and plug your favorite PC/Mac, audio card and/or DAC in here)
-- anything else?

This is clearly a moving target in the marketplace, but I'm wondering where the state of the art is on this.

Offline richidoo

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 01:33:21 PM »
Tact reclocks all digital inputs, so it shouldn't matter what transport you use. Jitter is the enemy and Tact has a cure built in. Pick your favorite control interface and go with that for transport. If your tact had word clock input, then you could clock it and TP with external clock. If Tact had clock out you could clock the TP. Without external clock, you just rely on the Tact's reclocking ability.

You could modify the SPDIF output of Duet or Sonos to use 75ohm internal cable and BNC connector for a potential further improvement - who knows. Into a DAC that does not reclock, I'm sure these would help. Into Tact, less so. More details about the Tact reclocking scheme might help you decide whether reducing jitter at the input would further affect total jitter getting to the DAC.

I have a spare SB that you are welcome to try in comparison to your low jitter Oracle Transport. If you hear no difference, then go cheap on the netplayer.  It's jitter output is supposedly about 200ps.  I bet your Oracle is far less than that.

Some links about mods and jitter articles:
http://www.cullencircuits.com/webapps/site/67005/78076/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=299746
http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=392
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/193jitter/
http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 03:08:25 PM »
Rich,  thanks for the input.  There is definitely a difference between the SB3 into the Tact and the Oracle transport into the Tact.   SB3 grainier and less engaging.   There was also a reasonable difference even from a Transporter (when I borrowed Carl's).   The reason I decided to buy the Oracle was because it sounded so much better when compared to all comers (all driven thru the DAC of the Tact). 

Mostly, I was curious about your take on the Modwright Transporter in your system compared to your Sonos or other sources.   Does it live up to all the positive reviews it's been getting?   I'm trying to decide if I'm going to stick with Logitech and pop for a Duet controller and Boom (i.e. make music even more convenient) or continue the path of ever better sonics which might even include replacing the Tact.   One thing I've not tried at all is to compare better DACs to what is in the Tact.   

Mostly just trying to scratch an itch....  :-k   

Bigfish8

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 03:16:13 PM »
Mike:

I know that Carlman has previously owned an unmodified Transporter and he was present at the G2G and heard my ModWright Transporter.  Maybe he can comment about the differences as I have never heard an unmodified version.

At the G2G the ModWright Transporter had a GZ-32 Rectifier and 6H30DR Signal Tubes.  Last week I finally snared a metal base Phillips GZ-32 and installed it in place of the GZ-32.  Just about everyone over on AC that has run this tube combination claim it to be best of any combination they have tried.  There is no question this combination will remain in my unit.

I mention the above comments about tube rolling because should you purchase a ModWright Transporter you will roll tubes to find what works best in your system.  This is also the bad news because of the dollars the tubes will cost you.

Good Luck,

Ken


Offline Carlman

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 07:42:13 AM »
Wow, thanks for the compliment about my audible memory, Ken... but I had the unmodified Transporter in my system a couple of years ago so I really can't comment on how they'd compare.

We were mainly comparing analog outputs at our meeting anyway.  If you compared the Transporter, the SB3, and your Oracle on the TacT, I would imagine there would be little to no difference among them.  That's my hunch but what Rich says about re-clocking actually explains why. 

I think the Oracle and the modified Transporter have a lot in common functionally..
I really enjoy listening to music.

miklorsmith

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 08:49:32 AM »
I've lived with three TacT units - 2.0s, 2.2X and 2.2XP.  I didn't like any of the internal DACs and used them with external DACs, mostly non-oversampling.  I thought the Altmann was terrific (still do) but it didn't mesh perfectly with the XP.  Ultimately the Lessloss was the choice for a number of reasons, though it's an oversampler.  I definitely wanted one that could work directly from the XP's 24/96 native output.

TacT is quiet about their clocking scheme but I'm pretty confident it's complex.  I think there are multiple clock circuits driving the DSP works in addition to the main audio signal.  When I asked them about clock slaving to use the Lessloss as the clock master I got the idea that there's a LOT going on in there.

Whatever digital source you feed, it's going to be upsampled to 24/96.  Somehow, the 24 bits are necessary for transparent digital volume control and the sampling frequency is beneficial to signal processing.  If you're feeding an analog source the first operation will be digitizing to 24/96.  Feeding analog to a TacT doesn't make much sense to me as I believe every ADC/DAC/sample rate conversion takes a toll on sound quality but I'm sure argument could be made there.

Condensed, my thought is while digital transports probably do make a difference through the TacT, the degree of difference will be minimized by the unit's processing versus going straight to a DAC.

The last setup I had was the Lessloss which works perfectly from 24/96 straight to a Yamamoto A-08s, 45 SET amp.  This is a GREAT amp, assuming you can live with 2 watts which I can.  As an aside, I had to sell that amp but I kept the 45 bottles and my SET star will rise again.  This should have been a terrific combination - high quality SS output as "preamp" to a truly superior, hi-gain tube amp.  But, something was not right.  I began to think I could hear all that processing as dropouts in quiet passages and though I was using SET amplification to paper drivers I was still missing organic richness.

Moving to a tubed Lamm preamp (the baby one) fixed all that and then some.  I still am using a DSP processor but only below 120 hz.  I believe the TacT units have "a sound" that cannot be escaped.  That doesn't mean it's a bad sound or that it can't work or that it's not your sound.  But like everything else it does put its signature on a system.  I don't write this to discourage you from keeping it, rather as a data point since I've traveled a similar road. 

IMO, a DAC has much more potential for gains than the input digital.  If you're running the 2.0s or 2.2X, an Altmann DAC with 24/96 encoding might just seal the deal for you.  If it had worked with the XP I might have stopped there for quite a while.  You'll give up some resolution sometimes those edges do need a bit of smoothing.  A few folks I corresponded with on the TacT/Altmann combo had the s and X and all reported they worked very well together.  The XP is a major departure in architecture and even TacT themselves were not able to get them to play together.

Sorry for the rambling, hope the itch gets scratched!

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 09:14:16 AM »
Hmmm, my experience (in my system, to my ears, etc...) there is a definite difference between my SB3 digitally feeding the Tact and my Oracle transport feeding it.   Not dramatic but definitely affecting musicality.  The SB3 with digital out to the Tact is a bit grainier and less transparent.  The Oracle is, well, the best I've heard in my rig.

Now, the Tact was previously Carl's and went through about every mod offered by Aberdeen and then some so I'm certain it is a good step up from a stock Tact 2.0s but I've never heard one in my system so I don't know for certain.

Interestingly, I debated on whether to run my phono pre (Minimax) through it via an ADC card.   Anthony offered to let me try a stock ADC card and the results were discouraging.   He then offered to send a modded ADC card and I was amazed at the improvements, so I have been running my vinyl rig thru the Tact and thoroughly enjoying it.   I suspect I'm paying a bit of a price but then the room correction balances that out quite nicely.

What I hope to try is a replacing the Tact DAC card with an outboard DAC just to hear what I can hear. 

miklorsmith

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 09:18:26 AM »
Cool, the sound you'll get from different DACs will vary as much as you'd expect.  I would definitely look for one that can decode 24/96 to avoid a conversion from there to whatever the DAC can use.

Offline Carlman

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 09:31:59 AM »
Yeah, I hit the 'submit' a bit quickly this morning... and now I do remember the grain and overall grunge of the SB3 as a transport.  That's where I started forming my opinion of the SB3 as a nice toy... and not hifi.

BTW, You need to have a G2G, Mike... really.

Your TacT pre is leaps and bounds better than stock in SQ.  It's not even close.  It went from an 85% joy to 99% joy with the full mods Anthony did.  Really.  I haven't heard stock vs. modified ADC but you got a taste of how mod-friendly TacT stuff is... and that was a fairly minor mod compared to what's been done on your preamp.  The only reason I sold it was to do analog inputs like phono and tuner... and I knew I'd be building a room that wouldn't need (as much) correction.

I've always wondered what the 2150 amp would sound like fully modified.  I hope I get a chance to hear it one day.  It sounded OK stock, not great... but I know Anthony could take it to an insane level... and it would be great.  hmm.

Anyway... Maybe we could have a transport comparo at your place with Rich's Sonos (if he's willing to 'transport' it), Ken's TP, and your sources...?  Then you'd know something for sure. ;)

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 12:46:25 PM »
Have Sonos, will transport. :D

SB3 as stock has many problems for hifi use, but most can be improved. I have a linear 2A power supply that allowed me to enjoy the stock SB3 for many months before I was corrupted by mikorsmith's Altmann on demo tour. I would not be surprised if a good quiet power supply would improve the digital output also. You are welcome to try it if it sounds interesting because I am currently not using it at all, and it is still wired for SB 5V. PM your address I will mail it to you. It is Power-One frame PS, I think ripple spec is <.05% at 5V/2A. Changing the SB3 coax output to BNC, etc maybe some gain there, but you're still relying on the cheap SB oscillator for clock. The Sonos digital mod actually (supposedly) improves the clock which is intriguing. But I honestly have no complaints about the stock Sonos / stock Altmann combination in my rather revealling system.

My Altmann is stripped, only plays 16/44 coax, otherwise we could try Mike's suggestion to play it from the Tact. Tact would have to dither down the output to play to the Tact. We can try it for fun sometime. The Transporter can play 24/96 as DAC.  It cannot do both at the same time however, stream and DAC with Tact in the middle.

Another option is a stand alone SPDIF reclocker like Pace Car.

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: How do the various approaches to streaming stack up?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 02:09:36 PM »
Rich, thanks for the offer but I've also got a linear PS for the SB3 which I failed to mention.   At some point I will definitely step up to host a G2G.   Carl and I have talked about it before but, well, life just gets in the way and it certainly has done exactly that for my family over the last 4 months.   Be that as it may, there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel...