Author Topic: Conductor Directionality  (Read 13590 times)

DaveC

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Conductor Directionality
« on: December 24, 2013, 03:21:13 PM »
The awesome  :duh   directionality thread?

I think it's got to do with both how the wire is drawn and the dialectric, but I try to avoid these topics on AC in particular.  :rofl:

And with wire, since UPOCC wire is cast and has no crystal boundaries I would think it would be quite different from normal drawn wire wrt directionality.

But back on topic, mfsoa, I agree w Paul that you should put the sub panel as close to your system as possible to minimize the potential for noise.

Offline Triode Pete

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 03:59:02 PM »
I regret whenever posting on AC due to the large amount of inflexible "flat earth society" members...  :duh

Directionality for me is dependent on the geometry of construction and the asymmetry of any "add-ons" to the wire / cable...

Most important, as Paul Klipsch once said, "The quality of the build (& design) is more important than the quality of the parts"... you could have the best parts or wire in the world and if you don't know what you're doing, you'll have an "OK product", nothing exceptional...

I agree with a single dedicated line to avoid "ground loops"... in my two hi-fi rigs, I run separate dedicated 10 AWG, highly annealed, copper conductors, into cryogenically treated Hubbell Specification Grade receptacles... No complaints with the results whatsoever...

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all,
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DaveC

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 06:05:35 PM »
You mean you didn't like talking to jerrylove, Pete?  :twisted:

Sure, a completed cable is one thing but just talking about a wire its self being directional... the only factors are how it's drawn and dielectric being "burnt in" in one direction... and since everything makes a difference both factors probably come into play. I will admit I haven't done much experimentation in this area yet. It's on the list, lol.

As far as parts vs design, I think things can go the other way too... a good design can be limited by poor quality parts. You can fix that but it's harder to fix a poor design so I'd rather start with a good design given the choice... Anyway, gotta have both for the end results to be what we're all looking for here.



 


Offline richidoo

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 06:55:10 PM »
The fact that our audio signals and mains power are alternating current makes conductor directionality irrelevent, imo. But cable construction with ground/shield/braid can have a direction preference, imo....  ;)

Offline Triode Pete

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2013, 07:10:41 PM »
But cable construction with ground/shield/braid can have a direction preference, imo....  ;)

EXACTLY, Professor!
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DaveC

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2013, 08:47:49 PM »
Rich, I don't think directionality is irrelevant. The way you are looking at it is only one aspect of the whole picture. AC can also be thought of as a wave... Also, you can actually calculate the amount of time it takes a signal to propagate from your source to your speakers. While the time involved is certainly very short, it is not zero.

I think everyone here understands that construction can make a cable directional, that wasn't really what the discussion was about... it was about a simple wire. And I don't think it's too far out there to think that when a wire is drawn through a die it arranges the crystalline matrix of the metal in a different way. One that might be directional. And that since the crystalline structure of UPOCC metal is very different from conventional wire, it may not be directional.

Same with dielectric being burnt in.

As Paul said on AC, if you want to know do an experiment with a roll of solid core wire and a simple packing tape ic. If you haven't done this or any experiment and just assume that a wire can't be directional because power and signal are AC then I think it would be best to keep an open mind on the subject.


Offline rollo

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2013, 07:52:41 AM »
Excellent advice Paul. Good to see you posting and helping here.
charles

Charles,
Are you implicitly chastising me for being  a total prick on the other board? :rofl: If so, I admire your perceptiveness.

Have a great holiday!
Paul

   Not at all. Just you being you.


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Offline rollo

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Conductor Directionality
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2013, 08:44:10 AM »
  OK took a pair of Radio Schack Ics to task. listened one way sounded VG. reversed cables and listened again. Sounded close but different. A bit brighter and forward in presentation.
   Now was it the direction of the wire ? or the the wire just sounded better one way ?
    Take the UPOCC wire which is designed to be drawn a certain way [ construction ] listen to that both ways and a difference will be found. Which is better for the installation s the real question.
    If an IC does not have a shield configuration to be in one direction than try IC both ways.
     After listening both ways it would be interesting to measure the propagation of the wire [ speed ] to determine if one choose the correct orientation. If not then it is all moot. If so then we have a finding.
      The wire itself no matter how designed is still out for sound until one listens to the end result. The end result being the total cable design and construction method.
     So at the end of the day a completed cable is up for audition in ones system. does it sound good because of the wire ? Ga. ? annealing of wire ? dielectric ? winding ? connectors ? shielding ? active shielding ?
    All of the above contribute to the sound. The "BEST" wire, connectors and so on does not mean it will sound good. It is the overall design not "best" parts that make a cable.  Marketing a cable will hype up the parts and all else.
    Marketing  hype is the real culprit not the cable or us. We are very lucky here to have several cable manufacturers who offer fine products as well as good advice. Try Dave's, Pete's, Paul's, cable offerings. All have there sonic merits, the best ? There is no best just different.



charles
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Online BobM

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Re: Conductor Directionality
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2013, 10:02:29 AM »
OK, here's my totally BS theory on why break in and directionality works as it seems to. Putting shielding and dielectric aside and just talking metal wire into consideration.

Think of water flowing through a stream, or perhaps more aptly, a pebble filled tube. It is going to find the easiest path through those pebbles, and over time may wear doen some pebbles to make that path larger and easier to navigate. It also stands to reason that there will be side pockets where the water just doesn't go through and things stall out in that spot as the main stream travels along the optimal path.

In wire, I believe that the electricity will also find the easiest path through the crystaline structure of the metal, burning in an optimal path over time and enlarging that path so it can flow easier.

Now turning that wire the opposite way means that the optimal path is now lost and has to be found again. What may look like a side path may lead to a dead end going the other way.

Of course some people say it isn't even the wire that breaks in, but the dielectric, which is a whole nother ball of twine.
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Conductor Directionality
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2013, 05:58:06 PM »
OK, here's my totally BS theory on why break in and directionality works as it seems to. Putting shielding and dielectric aside and just talking metal wire into consideration.

Think of water flowing through a stream, or perhaps more aptly, a pebble filled tube. It is going to find the easiest path through those pebbles, and over time may wear doen some pebbles to make that path larger and easier to navigate. It also stands to reason that there will be side pockets where the water just doesn't go through and things stall out in that spot as the main stream travels along the optimal path.

In wire, I believe that the electricity will also find the easiest path through the crystaline structure of the metal, burning in an optimal path over time and enlarging that path so it can flow easier.

Now turning that wire the opposite way means that the optimal path is now lost and has to be found again. What may look like a side path may lead to a dead end going the other way.

Of course some people say it isn't even the wire that breaks in, but the dielectric, which is a whole nother ball of twine.


Pretty good hypothesis, Bob! I have heard & I've experienced the "kink" in the interconnect theory... we need to treat those delicate interconnect cables very carefully. It's known (by those who know) that hammering, bending (aka = kinking), extruding wire, etc. disrupts the molecular structure and can damage the wire's crystalline structure. You can actually hear this difference and it's not that subtle...

So the lesson is, "Get Your Kinks Out" or better yet, Avoid the kinkiness! This will be a problem for "machinehead" though  :rofl: :rofl:

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Offline rollo

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Re: Conductor Directionality
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2013, 07:02:53 AM »
  If we take a 3ft piece of wire and measure the dissipation factor we can determine the direction. Meaning less resistance. Just like a cap.
  Now we have a starting point. Once the measurements are in the wires should be orientated as such. Then the cable is ready for its intended construction of the entire cable.
  Now UPOCC is an engineered wire designed to have little resistance due to its structure. Excellent starting point as illustrated in Dave's cables. A very quit cable indeed. Same with Pete's power cords dead silent background. Paul's ICs were incredible in Toprounds system. Dead quite and open.
   There are many other factors besides the wire that make a good sounding cable assembly. Those are trade secrets which I will not discuss or ask about here.
     One size does not fit all. So the "best" IMO is what s best for ones system. Having a wire that is designed right is a great starting point.


charles

   
   
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