Author Topic: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance  (Read 2035 times)

Offline HAL

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2018, 07:16:56 PM »
Yes.  Best bass I have ever heard for music. 

Offline Nick B

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2018, 10:19:17 PM »
  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass. AT 15hz, 34mm.


charles

That is going to be tough as huge cone excursion comes into play, depending upon driver diameter and spl.

For my test speaker, I decided to use a 12" with -3db at 30hz, but at 19-20hz is -13db, in two 4.5 ft3 cabinets. Even then, cone excursion is the limiting factor at 30hz.

Here is a link to calculate excursion. With a 12" woofer, at 40hz, 100db spl, about 4.8mm excursion. All being the same except 20hz, the excursion is near 19mm, 3/4".

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

Cheers and hope this helps.

Steve

Thanks for posting that website, Steve. It has made it much easier to understand how the various goals and design elements for speakers work together.
Nick
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Offline steve

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 02:31:16 PM »
  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass. AT 15hz, 34mm.


charles

That is going to be tough as huge cone excursion comes into play, depending upon driver diameter and spl.

For my test speaker, I decided to use a 12" with -3db at 30hz, but at 19-20hz is -13db, in two 4.5 ft3 cabinets. Even then, cone excursion is the limiting factor at 30hz.

Here is a link to calculate excursion. With a 12" woofer, at 40hz, 100db spl, about 4.8mm excursion. All being the same except 20hz, the excursion is near 19mm, 3/4".

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

Cheers and hope this helps.

Steve

Thanks for posting that website, Steve. It has made it much easier to understand how the various goals and design elements for speakers work together.
Nick

Your quite welcome Nick.

For others not familiar with deep bass problems. Hal's design works nicely with deep bass as it minimizes cone excursion, and lower harmonic distortion. The down side is the physical size, think of twelve 12" woofers in a room. Cost?

Cheers

steve
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:33:51 PM by steve »
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Offline HAL

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 02:58:05 PM »
Depending on who makes the H-frame cabinets, the two DIY 6x12 servo subs from flat packs I did were around $7000. 

Offline dBe

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 11:19:27 PM »
I remember the first time I heard GR Research H-frames.  Danny was exhibiting in a relatively small room at RMAF (20 X 15 X 8).  I had a recording of Pete Belasco's "Deeper" with me.  The LF fundamental of the 808 drop (inside base ball) had been pitch corrected from the original 18Hz all the way up to 21.3Hz.  I was standing in the hallway talking to another member of the Insane Audio Posse when the first drop hit in the room.  The hallway door was closed.  Moved my world.  My friend Lowell had a WTF look on his face, so I waited for the next one with my fingertip about 1/8" from the outer corridor wall.  That wall hit me finger as it shuddered due to room compression. 

Changed my life.

Not only was the LF extension there, but the utter tunefulness and astonishing detail made my mind up, then and there.

I have heard those subs in almost every possible setting possible including my own listening room.  When properly implemented, powered by the amp built for them and given every possible setting I can, with no hesitation state that they produce the deepest, most authentic LF available.

I've listened to crazy built into the floor bass horns, Wilson Thors Hammers ,REL, HSU and on and on.  Nothing has approached the performance and absolute musicality of them.  I can only imagine Rich's 6 X 12's.  Even the 2 X 12's are awesome in most systems.  Brian Ding and Danny Richie truly really represent SOTA in LF reproduction.  Probably move one's bowels ... Not really: the "brown note" is around 9Hz.  Don't go there...

Just sayin' ...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:22:32 PM by dBe »

Offline dflee

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 07:56:28 AM »
9hz huh? Never been there as far as I know but it sounds moving (and colorful).
Iv'e got dual 10s per speaker and different amplification changes a lot in the LF for me.
So speaker cost alone doesn't combat bass performance provided your talking decent bass
vs just being there in some bloated soggy form.

Don

Offline HAL

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 09:26:38 AM »
Dave,

This might give you an idea.

This plot is at my listening seat 11' from the bass array and 8' from the ribbon/planar line array.  Time delays are corrected in the dspMusikLCD digital crossover.

Working on the peak and node with room treatment now.  It pretty much sounds like real instruments in an acoustic space. 

Offline Danny Richie

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2018, 12:22:20 PM »
As per the original post regarding speakers that play full range. My first thought is, why?

I typically and specifically don't want my main speakers to play down that low for several reasons.

First of all, those low wavelengths are tough to reproduce passively. It requires large heavy woofers and demands an amplifier with plenty of power and the ability to deliver plenty of current. If you relieve the main speakers and amp of just the first octave you make both much more capable of covering everything else. It almost doubles the head room of the amp. And with a woofer not being worked by those long exertions it (or they) can much more easily handle the shorter ones.

Now relieve low frequency duty even further for another half octave or so and your main speakers and amps are freed up significantly.

Secondly, and again, handling the bottom octave with a passive speaker means a very heavy moving mass driver with a low Fs. Unfortunately that means a LOT of stored energy. That equates to slow sluggish bass response especially at high volumes. Bass can simply become a blurry boom.

Third, you really want to place your speakers where they are ideal in the room for imaging and sound stage layering and not for bass response. You don't want to be stuck with whatever bass response the speakers produce because of what they do in an ideal location for speaker placement.

And ideally you really want and need some adjustable control over the lower ranges. It is too easy for a large speaker to overload a room in the lower ranges and then you're stuck with a limited amount of attenuation adjustment with bass traps and room treatment. This can be seen (or heard) at any audio show. It is easy to find a room with boomy bass. If you've been to a show then you know this.

If the lower ranges are covered by a separate sub and amp system then you have some ability to balance the response.

And with our servo subs the control system allows you to do almost anything you want. You can even EQ out a peak or a dip. You can even use open baffle subs or multiple subs to balance out the way bass loads the room. You can't do that with a full range passive speaker.

And smaller is faster especially with servo control. Our 12" woofers will play flat to 20Hz and easily hit -3db numbers in the teens. So why go to a bigger woofer? Some will say that a bigger woofer will move more air. Well yes and no. Potentially it can, but at 85db, 90db, 95db or even 100db they are actually moving the same amount of air. But a larger woofer is still heavier, has more stored energy, and takes longer to return to rest. So it does not sound as good.  Yes, but it can move more air totally, thus hitting a higher SPL level. True, but then two 12" woofers can move more air, hit higher SPL levels and still settle much faster. Use of multiple woofers really means each woofer has to move less to hit the same SPL levels as a larger single woofer. So settling time is even further reduced. Throw in servo control and you're at a whole different level.

And what does it cost? Add a servo sub to a pair of mini-monitors and your system is now full range and for a fraction of the cost of any full range speakers that you can find. And the servo subs will still play lower and sound better.

Offline steve

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2018, 03:28:22 PM »
Quote
As per the original post regarding speakers that play full range. My first thought is, why?

There are several reasons Danny. My first questions would be:

1) What is the maximum spl one is looking for. Peaks of 100db work for me. Of course, others may wish for higher spls.

2) If multiple different type amplifiers are used. Whether solid state and tube, or tube and tube of different manufacturers or even models, the ear is very sensitive to sonic differences when blending. Separate amps have different sonic qualities. I have yet to hear seamless blending at shows, anyone using separate subwoofers. Of course most have average to good systems, so blending may not be as important, which I understand.

In my research, changes in as little as 1 part in 300,000 in resistor value is quite perceptible, as it slightly alters the response. I have found that 10 parallel 18 gauge wire is optimal for my system's sonics, not 8 nor 12. (Of course I have adjustments on my speakers.

With such sensitivity, I personally never mix different type of amplifiers due to blending problem perceptions. I also do not use separate sub-woofers. I simply use the same 25 watt/ch amplifier for both bass and treble for a seamless blend.

YMMV though.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 03:43:22 PM by steve »
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

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Offline Danny Richie

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 09:09:56 PM »
SPL levels are actually easier to hit with separates, and easier to control.

And blending separate subs is actually real easy if done right. It really has little to do with different types of amps. The difference really comes from driver speed. The difference in damping factors of the amps is nothing compared to the moving mass of the drivers in most cases.

For instance take a mini-monitor or small floor standing speaker and try to match the speed (and by speed I mean settling time) with a large and heavy low frequency driver . That's where you get the mis-match, and poor blending.

Another issue that I didn't mention earlier is that the larger voice coil of the bigger driver can create a large back EMF that effects (negatively) everything else. So when driven by the same amp they tend to muddy the output of other drivers. They can sound blended or more smeared together but not in a good way.

If you want to spend a little time with wire and listening comparisons then you will find that the geometry of the wire, quality of the wire, and dielectric material to have a much greater effect then the gauge of the wire.

Offline dBe

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 09:24:54 PM »
Steve, I was very much in the same camp as you for many, many years.  That all changed when I heard the GR open baffles.  First, they are not accelerometer based. The sensor coil is precise and honest.   Accelerometer sensed subs always sound broken to me.  One of the things that impressed me was the seamless integration with the mid driver.  I credit that completely to choosing the right amp and driver to integrate with the H-frames.  I can name a dozen mid drivers that would not do the trick.  A lot of this was just great choice of drivers.  The other thing is the uncolored nature of open baffle lows.  It really is stunning in timbre, dynamics and effortless sound. 

They simply rock with the right amp choice

Offline HAL

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 06:25:37 AM »
Agree with both Danny and dBe. 

Best integration of a sub to mains I have ever heard with either the 2x12 or 6x12 H-frame servo subs.  Much easier to integrate with the room as well. 

The radiation pattern from the open baffle subs solves a lot of side wall and ceiling interactions that a box or ported sub excites. 

My best suggestion is to get to hear them for yourself when possible.  The 2x12 and 6x12 H-frames servo subs were at CAF2017 and probably will be at CAF2018.  There maybe more than one room with them at CAF2018. 

Offline rollo

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 12:36:06 PM »
Well, well, well, I stand corrected. Makes sense Danny. IMo the OB "H" frames are the ones to beat. Great DIY product.


charles
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Offline steve

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2018, 01:25:01 PM »
SPL levels are actually easier to hit with separates, and easier to control.

My point is that unless one needs very high spls, that amp power becomes a non factor, except for possibleaverage SETs. My 20 watter handles my two ways to 100db spl.

Quote
And blending separate subs is actually real easy if done right. It really has little to do with different types of amps. The difference really comes from driver speed. The difference in damping factors of the amps is nothing compared to the moving mass of the drivers in most cases.

It has everything to do with different amplifiers and their differing sonic characters. As an example, try combining a bright sounding amplifier (for the tweeter) with a full sounding amplifier (for the woofer). It is quite easy to perceive a disjointed quality in the sound.

Driver speed is not that much of a problem. Often the cause of "slow" vs "quick" "speed" is the phase relationship between the fundamental and harmonics of said driver.

For higher frequency drivers, check the FR and cone resonance properties, as well as the Qs. For the woofer, again check the cone resonance properties and the Qs. If one is having "energy storage" problems, either the drivers have a problem to begin with, or the cabinet/design is problematic and the final Qs of the system is incorrect.

I have a control to adjust the Q of my woofer at resonance. I believe in controls on speakers.

Quote
For instance take a mini-monitor or small floor standing speaker and try to match the speed (and by speed I mean settling time) with a large and heavy low frequency driver . That's where you get the mis-match, and poor blending.

That is a function of the phase relationship between the fundamental and harmonics. The smaller mini will have the harmonics slightly ahead of the fundamental due to its lack of low frequency respone, which gives a steeper slope, thus "faster" time. It can be too "fast". The trick is to obtain the proper rise time (attack time) for said instruments.

Quote
Another issue that I didn't mention earlier is that the larger voice coil of the bigger driver can create a large back EMF that effects (negatively) everything else. So when driven by the same amp they tend to muddy the output of other drivers. They can sound blended or more smeared together but not in a good way.

That is where the proper xover design comes in. I have no problems with such, demonstrated by the fact that I am dealing with 1 part in 300,000 (resistor value). In other wards, I am dealing with FR etc changes so small they equate to -110db down from the fundamental. The ear is that sensitive.  One will not obtain that precision of blending using a typical subwoofer amp xover controls etc. Sounds like you are discussing a problem with a total Q that is too high.

Another point is that the typical xover, whether reg speaker or subwoofer, does not have the fine tuning necessary to seamlessly blend different drivers.

Quote
If you want to spend a little time with wire and listening comparisons then you will find that the geometry of the wire, quality of the wire, and dielectric material to have a much greater effect then the gauge of the wire.

I have dealt with several types of wire, and as you point out, a variety of factors influence the sound. Included in the list are your generalities; to be more specific, materials used, solid or stranded, total gauge and paralleling of individual wires. Here is a quote from a previous post I made addressing the high frequency response of one vs paralleling wires. I altered the quote slightly, an update.

Quote
Inductance is frequency dependent. For comparison, below is the DC resistance, the straight wire inductance, and inductive reactance for 5 feet of single wire and parallel wires at 20khz:
 
     Single                Single          Single         10 parallel

18 gauge wire        13 ga.         ~9 ga.           18 ga.

.0325                    .0104            .0066           .0065              DC resistance

2410 nh               2232 nh        2162 nh        240 nh              Inductance

.30 ohms              .28 ohms     .27 ohms       .03 ohms          Inductive reactance at 20khz

Notice the 10 parallel 18 gauge wires equate to an approximate 9 gauge wire in DC resistance, but the inductive reactance is only 1/9 that of the 9 gauge wire.

(You may have heard the past arguments over the small wire parallel with the large wire improving the highs. The highs were increased because the inductance of the two wires was about 1/2 that of a single wire.)

Remember, this is for a single 5 foot lead, not both leads. Multiply this by 2 for the total 10 feet speaker lead length. I would say .54 ohms is quite a bit in series with a 4 ohm, or 8 ohm speaker, although the impedance of a speaker at 20khz is higher. One could easily be about half a db down at 20khz, a couple of tenths at 10khz and even a tenth at 5khz. Whether one notices a difference will depend upon some factors. I and friends perceived a difference between 8, 10,, and 12 parallel wires per lead. Bass resonance is also affected and perceived.

Concerning low frequencies, multiple actions occur. 

1) The damping of the woofer resonance via reduced resistance to the output of the amplifier is enhanced by larger gauge wire (comparison using same material wire).

2) All drivers are influenced by the gauge of the wire due to the combination of wire resistance (and impedance) and varying impedance of each driver. Of course this does not occur with constant impedance speakers, such as magnepans etc.

One final point. The effect of one's personal tastes will also affect perception. As at Audio Fest's, one hears a variety of tonal balance in the different rooms. The range I have observed are from very full sounding to that of sterile. As such, the fuller sounding rooms will probably have little problems with matching drivers, even using different sounding amplifiers. The opposite will occur with the sterile sounding rooms, where different amplifiers and their characteristics will be perceived more easily.

The last point is that I am not personally attacking any of your products Danny. I have heard great things about your speakers. I am just providing information, responding to the OPs question, and your question; why I use one amplifier for both drivers in my speakers. I addressed multiple problems that need addressing.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:54:04 PM by steve »
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
10 parallel 18 gauge wires

Offline steve

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Re: Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2018, 01:47:07 PM »
Steve I understand andf xcan appriciate everything you said, but one thing is that most of us do not have your kind of talent or expeience and as such do not have access to the kind of hand tweaked eq

I understand and apologize if I come across in a poor way T, and others. Sometimes I feel that some ways of doing things get dumped on, when my own experiences say there is merit. I am also looking at what can be accomplished, pushing the borders of improvement.

cheers and no harm meant.

steve
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
10 parallel 18 gauge wires