Author Topic: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?  (Read 1344 times)

Offline dflee

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 01:16:41 PM »
So I've got a cdp and an upsampling dac.
Am I reading this correctly that I should get something for jitter and leave it at that. What should I get if I just use the cdp without bypassing the internal dac for better sound?

Don

Offline richidoo

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2018, 01:57:58 PM »
No shoulds here... ;)  but you can reduce jitter on the CDP's digital output with iFi purifier 1 (SPDIF.) I have one, it works good, jitter is only 60pS.

If you use the CDP analog outputs (without an external DAC) then there's no easy fix for the jitter. Surgery is necessary to upgrade the CDP's word clock.

Offline Nick B

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2018, 06:19:28 PM »
Interesting reading for sure. I confess to being a detail freak. But Iím trying to change... really I am!!
Hence Iím going the tubey, more musical route. As an aside, I sold two big ticket items, so i can spend some money. Yay 👍
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Offline mfsoa

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2018, 07:06:08 PM »
I have 2 computers hooked up to my dac (down from 3 - didn't use Moode very much on the Pi). I consider having the option to alter the digital filtering essential to maximizing the sound quality of one's system. It's cool too. Haven't dabbled quite yet in deconvolution but I'm sure that's on the way.

- Pi with an Allo Digione, running PiCorePlayer, coax spdif to dac. PiCorePlayer has the ability alter the type of filter (linear phase, minimum phase, everywhere between), filter slopes, upsampling etc. The ability to shift between linear phase and minimum phase  results in a huge change in sound quality (on audiophile terms). Much more than a cable swap, linear power supply etc. If you can't alter this in your current setups then you are stuck with what the designer picked. All digital filters are wrong. I like being able to select the least-wrong one for my tastes. I like the sound of everything upsampled to the max the spdif can take, 176 or 192, even multiples, with a filter that's half way between linear and minimum phase.  Not sure if the iFi Purifier will improve the Digione - would like to try.

- Minix Neo Z83-4, Win 10, fanless, cute. This runs Jriver, Tidal and is an HQPlayer NAA device, so nearly unlimited ability to choose the digital mangling I want. I prefer that to having someone else choose it for me and hope that their choice always matches the one I would have made for every piece of music for all time... Upsampling to 4X DSD is interesting. It always sounds better on acoustic music, but I often prefer plain old PCM for more electronic stuff. The output of this PC goes to an IfI nano IUSB3.0. In HQPlayer and JRiver I usually upsample everybody to the 356/384 family.


So then it goes onto a dac  (Gustard A20H, longing for a Brooklyn DAC+) which further upsamples again, so I really have no freaking idea what the dac thinks when it sees data that has already been upsampled by a computer. The theory is that the less work the DAC has to do t he better, so have your high-power PC do as much of the heavy lifting as possible.

So, to upsample or not to upsample, that is the question.  It's just so cheap and easy to get so much capability - I'd feel naked without it.

Offline dBe

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2018, 10:17:34 PM »
Had a weird couple of days where I'm away from work, so I've had some time to think about this a 'bit'.

My choice for gear in high-ish end audio always gravitates to very simple, well executed electronics.  I prefer triode gear for amplification built with exemplary parts.  Every time an audio signal encounters a input connector, a piece of wire, a solder joint, resistors or (gasp!) capacitors, output connectors the signal is altered by non-linear distortions.  Take a piece of SS gear and the distortions are further altered by multiple devices with tiny internal traces made of whatever, more and more gain stages, FIFO buffers, gate delay, latency and much more.  All of these things screw with phase by flipping absolute phase and phase angle rotations caused by every component in the signal chain.  These changes and distortions are relatively innocuous in analog reproduction because there is much less impact in timing distortion and phase.  When absolute phase is screwed with in analog, it is much easier to benignly herd the audio signal back into line.

Digital sins are several orders of magnitude greater than their analog, linear phase brethren.  By definition the digital end of our chosen playback change can be really hard to quantify differences when our preselected.


Offline rollo

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 09:07:18 AM »
Had a weird couple of days where I'm away from work, so I've had some time to think about this a 'bit'.

My choice for gear in high-ish end audio always gravitates to very simple, well executed electronics.  I prefer triode gear for amplification built with exemplary parts.  Every time an audio signal encounters a input connector, a piece of wire, a solder joint, resistors or (gasp!) capacitors, output connectors the signal is altered by non-linear distortions.  Take a piece of SS gear and the distortions are further altered by multiple devices with tiny internal traces made of whatever, more and more gain stages, FIFO buffers, gate delay, latency and much more.  All of these things screw with phase by flipping absolute phase and phase angle rotations caused by every component in the signal chain.  These changes and distortions are relatively innocuous in analog reproduction because there is much less impact in timing distortion and phase.  When absolute phase is screwed with in analog, it is much easier to benignly herd the audio signal back into line.

Digital sins are several orders of magnitude greater than their analog, linear phase brethren.  By definition the digital end of our chosen playback change can be really hard to quantify differences when our preselected.

  An invert polarity switch is a good thing to have. Besides what components may do the recordings themselves can be the out of phase culprit.
When you hear 44.1 done right with no chip set and a dedicated transport you will realize the difference missing from upsampling, chip DAC's. So easy to hear.


charles
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Offline dBe

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Re: REDBOOK To Upsample or not is The Question Is it Noble ?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2018, 10:05:57 PM »
Had a weird couple of days where I'm away from work, so I've had some time to think about this a 'bit'.

My choice for gear in high-ish end audio always gravitates to very simple, well executed electronics.  I prefer triode gear for amplification built with exemplary parts.  Every time an audio signal encounters a input connector, a piece of wire, a solder joint, resistors or (gasp!) capacitors, output connectors the signal is altered by non-linear distortions.  Take a piece of SS gear and the distortions are further altered by multiple devices with tiny internal traces made of whatever, more and more gain stages, FIFO buffers, gate delay, latency and much more.  All of these things screw with phase by flipping absolute phase and phase angle rotations caused by every component in the signal chain.  These changes and distortions are relatively innocuous in analog reproduction because there is much less impact in timing distortion and phase.  When absolute phase is screwed with in analog, it is much easier to benignly herd the audio signal back into line.

Digital sins are several orders of magnitude greater than their analog, linear phase brethren.  By definition the digital end of our chosen playback change can be really hard to quantify differences when our preselected.

  An invert polarity switch is a good thing to have. Besides what components may do the recordings themselves can be the out of phase culprit.
When you hear 44.1 done right with no chip set and a dedicated transport you will realize the difference missing from upsampling, chip DAC's. So easy to hear.


charles
Polarity has a very real influence upon the audio that we listen to and it is relatively easy to hear.  It is also pretty simple to implement in most systems.  Sometimes it is as simple as switching output phase to a preamp from the DAC or analog source.

One of my gurus wrote an interesting paper and presented it to the AES, but unfortunately got poo-pooed by a lot of "scientists" and his work largely has gone unheeded.

Think about it this way.  With absolute phase observed at the speaker output, dynamics will be honestly served.  Pure physics:  with, say, a big drum hit the speaker is going to push a compressible gas (fluid) and portray the transient as intended- a fast outgoing waveform.  If the speaker is operating anti-phase, the diaphragm is going to try to suck an equal amount of air compared to the positive going pulse.  Ain't gonna happen.  Air is to a point elastic in that it is more efficient to push it than pull it.

Read Clark's thoughts here:  https://positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm

Food for thought that will go a long way in the consideration of PRAT and why it is some of the magic that we hear as 'right'.