Author Topic: You know what grinds my gears?  (Read 59141 times)

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2015, 06:56:22 PM »
You guys don't like the prices. It is the economy not anything else. We live in a 1% or billionaire economy.  Why would they sell $200 cord when they can sell a $5K cord to somebody in the 1%. It isn't just for audio but anything luxury. You don't like the advertisng and pandering to the 1% then change the econmy.  There is a reason they are focus advertising on that economic tier. Its because they have all the money. While we sit in debt ad are basically broke in the 99%.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Prιcis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline dflee

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2015, 07:43:22 PM »
There's also that thought of will I have a job tomorrow so can I afford to be putting money on my beloved hobby. I along with a lot of people don't have a clue where upper management will turn and bam, I'm outa work with a great stereo. Our new world if fueled by fear and those 1 per-centers love it.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline _Scotty_

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
  • “Sic transit gloria mundi”
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2015, 08:49:13 PM »
It doesn't help that from 2000 to 2015 inflation has eroded our buying power to to the point that it takes 1.38 times more money to have the same buying power one dollar had in the year 2000. This factor alone, if not offset by an equal increase in wages, will make affording any stereo equipment a lot more difficult.
 I don't think we live in a billionaire economy, per se, but the recession combined with the effects of inflation has negatively impacted the middle class. Increasing globalization has taken away jobs that Americans had before the recession and the "recovery" has not resulted in their return. The average member of middle class has a lot of demands on their money and their discretionary income is lower than it has been in the past.
 Here is a link to The Bureau Labor and Statistics data, tracking
Five Decades of Middle Class Wages: August 2015 Update
http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Employment-Wages-and-Hours-since-1964.php
 The data shows how the average hours worked and the gross wages earned are about 12%  lower than the best year in the 1970s.
It's worth checking out the data for the insight into how the middle class has fared over the last 50years.
 I thought it was worse than it is, but an overall loss in total take home pay over time does not bode well for the future. Made in America will be critical to  turning this trend around.
It all too easy to allow the media to define this as a class struggle between the 1% and everyone else, this takes the focus off the complex nature of the problem and yields a simplistic view that can be readily reduced to a soundbite.
News Light, easy to swallow, and it's less informative!
Scotty

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2015, 09:29:39 PM »
We live in a Billionaire driven economy.  The people who hold more than a billion in net wort,  their entire value is more (than of value) half of everyone on the planet. Looking at middle class earning power means nothing. Because there is no middle class. The ones that are left are making the wages on the graphs but there are barely any left. So who who cares what they make. Those jobs are not there.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Prιcis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2015, 10:00:04 PM »
As administrator I request that discussion of financial classes and percenters and billionaires be muted now, and the topic return to whatever tangent it was on before, or a different tangent which follows The Rules.

Offline topround

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1498
  • Life without Bach, would be a mistake
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2015, 02:32:20 AM »
yes us billionaires take offense!

While I think most of us are on the same page regarding the economy and politics, it will not end well.
so lets stick to what grinds our  gears

You know what really grinds my gears?

My wife likes to drive a manual transmission car, we bought a new car (yes we are billionaires!) a new Subaru with manual, which is not easy to get.

In the passenger seat I watch her drive up to a stop light in 3rd gear, put her foot on the clutch and wait for the green light.
When the green light comes she almost stalls because she is still in 3rd gear. She has been driving a manual tranny for almost her entire driving life and yet she still cannot remember to put it in 1st gear.
No gears were ground during this procedure, but it sure grinds my gears!
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Emil

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1171
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2015, 05:00:16 AM »

Sure, we all feel betrayed by the industry after we've supported it for many, many years and now feel we're on the outside looking in but are we part of the reason?
With the growth of sites such as Audiogon and ebay, never has it been so easy to purchase used gear and I'm sure many here have put together systems with a few if not all from gear purchased used and I'm sure this hasn't gone unnoticed by manufactures. Why pay 2k for a new speaker when I can purchase a much better used speaker for the same money So it seems fully justified and understandable that they are catering to the market that purchases new.
Just a thought....
"Today I didn't even have to use my A.K.
I got to say it was a good day"
    --Ice Cube

Offline machinehead

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
    • Affordable Web Design & Development
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2015, 06:10:32 AM »
I believe all this technology is just bringing us new buzz words that can be used as sales tactics... A lot of it is what tone is in vogue ( warm, high detail, neutral). We are being sold words, each year replaced by new desirable words.

Short term things are forgotten, then comes a revival. Rinse. Repeat.
Its cool ndude.

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2015, 07:48:03 AM »
I want to say one thing about the billionaire comments, not from a political or class standpoint but from a purely scientific economic point of view (and Rich, if you think this is over the line feel free to delete it, I will not be offended at all.)

I hear all kinds of people talking about "the billionaires" and the "one percenters" in us vs them types of comments. One common thread that binds virtually all of these billionaire types is that they did not make their money by earning a large salary, they made it through equity ownership and appreciation (or inherited it from family who did). Either they founded companies that went onto huge success, like Microsoft or WalMart or they are executives that are paid mainly through stock grants and options.

However, with the disappearance over the past two decades of old fashioned annuity type pensions the vast majority of Americans are now depending on retirement savings plans , like IRAs and 401Ks to provide them with income in their golden years. (The last statistic I was was that the percentage of American workers current covered by annuity pension plans is in the area of only 25%)

Well these IRAs and 401Ks are all pretty closely tied to the stock market, So anything that is done to reign in the wealth of the one percenters (whose wealth is mostly driven by stocks) will also have an adverse effect on the retirement savings of the other 99%.

While can I understand how many people find that amount of wealth controlled by the few to be distasteful, people need to be very careful about what they propose we do about it, because this easily end up being a case people shooting themselves in the foot by getting exactly what the asked for.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline machinehead

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
    • Affordable Web Design & Development
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2015, 07:51:57 AM »
Kill Kill Kill the 1 percenters! Take their homes their yachts. their fashionable vinyl underpants!

So the 1 percenters have a contingency plan eh. We kill them, no retirement 4 you!!!!!
Its cool ndude.

Offline jimbones

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1290
  • Two plus Two Speakers
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2015, 08:23:18 AM »
Sheesh. Who started this thread 8-[
Rogue RP7 Pre, Art Audio Vinyl Reference Phono,CJ Premier 12 Pwr, VPI Classic II/Dynavector 20X2L, Roon Rock, Auralic Vega DAC, Emotiva ERC-3, MIT, TWL, WireWorld, Wywires, Shunyata

Offline machinehead

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
    • Affordable Web Design & Development
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2015, 08:34:25 AM »
Lets get back on track...
https://youtu.be/sgpa7wEAz7I
Its cool ndude.

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2015, 08:40:54 AM »

Sure, we all feel betrayed by the industry after we've supported it for many, many years and now feel we're on the outside looking in but are we part of the reason?
With the growth of sites such as Audiogon and ebay, never has it been so easy to purchase used gear and I'm sure many here have put together systems with a few if not all from gear purchased used and I'm sure this hasn't gone unnoticed by manufactures. Why pay 2k for a new speaker when I can purchase a much better used speaker for the same money So it seems fully justified and understandable that they are catering to the market that purchases new.
Just a thought....

I don't think it is really a matter of betrayal as much as simple  (and I might say predictable) economics. The high end has been a boutique industry and a house of cards from the very beginning. High R&D,  manufacturing setup costs  and fixed operating expenses spread over very small production runs.  Over time technological innovations and societal changes have introduced other thing that now compete with audio for leisure time and discretionary dollars, like smartphones, video games, home theater, and the internet to name a few. Even among audiophiles, the time and money once used exclusively for audio is now being at least partially allocated to other things that did not even exist during the infancy of the high end. This leads to less money allocated to audio, which leads to lower demand which forces companies to raise prices as they spread fixed costs across lower sales volumes, the higher prices again lead to even lower demand and the circle goes round and round.  

So in reality, it is not so much the industry that id betraying you, but rather your fellow (ex) audiophile that are spending their stereo money on other thing. The industry is simply doing what it can to survive given the market forces that are presented to it.

As for Audiogon, that is really a case of a technological innovation from outside of the industry that has a had a profound effect on the industry. In the past used equipment was pretty much available only to people who lived in proximity to a dealer that handled it and was purchased on a drive and find basis. But with the proliferation of the internet and sites like Audiogon that broker the transactions, anyone, anywhere can have access to all kinds of used gear and often find what the want in less time than it used to take to drive to the store. So while outside technology has caused the total market for high end gear to shrink , it has also grown the used market by making used gear available to people who never really had a good opportunity to buy it be and making is quicker and easier to do so for everybody. But of course this will be a limited phenomenon unless new gear sales continue at a pace that keeps feeding more gear into the used market. If not as older gear wears out, breaks down or just dies of old age the used market will get smaller and smaller.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2015, 08:42:31 AM »
Sheesh. Who started this thread 8-[

Some Bozo.  #-o
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2015, 10:00:08 AM »
What grinds my gears are the people who complain about price. either they are jealous or feel deprived.
    My advice learn more about real sound in a real space and put together a system within your budget.
    There are many inexpensive or reasonably priced components that provide great tonality and harmonic structure. Finding them and putting the system together is where experience counts.
    Most audiophiles are not confident in their own decisions. Why do we need a buddy to "hear" the system and make usel better about the system.
     Can a inexpensive system give emotional impact like a expensive system. Yes,yes and yes.
     Then there are those you need bragging rights. Well I have "blah,Blah, blah speakers you know. Good for you but the system sounds Hi Fi, go figure.
      The most forgotten piece of the puzzle is the room not the gear. Really why would someone put top line gear in a tiny room with a fireplace behind it ? Or glass walls ?
      OK most have a shared space or living room. They cannot get the desired basic parts of the room correct. There are exceptions but very few in my experience. One exception is Scottys' apartment. Zero issues.
      So do not piss in the wind realize your starting point and build the system accordingly.

chew on that awhile
charles :-P
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.