Author Topic: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....  (Read 10665 times)

Offline sleepyguy24

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When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« on: August 02, 2015, 09:25:33 PM »
that you still require a power conditioner.

A quick conversation b/w me and JimBones got me thinking.

What situation would still cause one to need a power conditioner if they already have a dedicated line for their audio system? If you already have a dedicated line what kind of power conditioner would you buy? Would you just need an AC regenerator or maybe just a spike protector? I was also thinking

In my Dad's system when he put his entire HT system on a dedicated line the sound was so crystal clear. He only wanted a Belkin PF60 so he could turn everything on and off.

My experience and knowledge with the benefits of electrical tweaking is limited. I just changed outlets in my systems and have installed combinations of Topaz Isolation Transformers and other noise filters.

Thanks in advance.

Offline richidoo

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 07:49:51 AM »
If you have a shared line, make sure all connections in the line (like wire nuts, outlet screws, any cut in the wires) are as tight as possible. They are source of added resistance that degrades audio performance. You might even consider using a silver cream on the contacts. The line connection to the breaker and ground buss should already be very tight.

A dedicated line could be installed with thickest ga wire. This is why you install a 20A service for audio system outlet, instead of 15A; not because you will use 20A, but because you want the thicker wire to reduce resistance, especially when outlet is far from the service panel.

Because of these opportunities for variably higher resistance with wirenuts and outlet connections, cheap brass contacts in outlets, etc. you should make sure the audio system has a good ground. Ideally it would use a single 20A outlet, or 2 nearby 20s shared, so that there is only one ground path back to the breaker panel and all components in the system see the same ground resistance. A power strip makes this easier, but most strips add their own unacceptable levels of resistance, and audiophile quality strips are very expensive, so DIY your strip with thick wire and copper contact outlets like Jena Labs. Remember the neutral is also ground. Earth wire is for safety, but neutral is the return for the single ended power and can just as easily create hum with bad connections when two different circuits power the system, the loop forms through the interconnect grounds.

When you can't fix the different ground resistances, like the above example of multiple circuits serving the system, or when when bringing grounded cable TV or FM antenna into the system, and you get a ground loop hum, use a cap or transformer to isolate the signal wire that creates a loop with the grounds. Lifting the earth wire with a groundbuster plug will often not work, because the neutral wire (return conductor for the single ended power) is also connected to the ground buss in the panel. Jenson Transformers makes good signal isolation products like this to stop hum. I use their Iso-Maxx on my FM antenna.

Groundbuster plug is a useful tool for diagnosing ground related hum, but it shouldn't be left installed in the system. Remove it immediately after diagnosis and fix the problem correctly so the safety earth is restored to prevent electrocution.

As for power conditioning, I like balanced power transformers because they offer a floating ground so all components see the same ground voltage to avoid voltage flowing in a loop, and it eliminates DC offset which causes power transformers to buzz. They also offer a reservoir of magnetic energy to improve transient current delivery to components whose power transformers are undersized, like most tube components. Of course as a huge inductor low pass filter, it filters out the HF noise from the mains. A large balanced transformer has its own mechanical vibration sound which small sorbothane footers will cure.

I also like Purepower regenerator and Brick Wall surge protectors.

Offline tmazz

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 09:04:32 AM »
Dean powerline conditioning IMO is a bizare topic and ont that is full of smoke and mirrors. Not tthat I don't believe in it, but rather that I have never been able to make any sense out of the hows and whys tot he point where I can predict how, when and where it will be benifitial. I have had some good sucess with it but it has always been as a result  more of trial and error rather than any kind of intelligent planning. Unfortunately there are a number of things external and internal to your home that can generate all kinds of trash (noise) back into the power grid. Air conditioners and refrigerators are notorious for this, as are indutrial power users like factories. So while we would all like to think that our utility is provding us with squeaky clean power, this us usually not the case. And the amount and type of impurities mixed in with your power is a fuction of part of the grid you are connected to with relation to a lot of these noisemakers. Different conditioners address different types of problems and you just need to find one that works for you.

For example, when CD players came out in the 80's and other componenets strarted to incorporate CMOS type chips (which are especially sensitive to voltage spikes) to do logic control funtctions,  I picked up a conditioner from Tripp Lite that was based on an autotransformer. Now conventional knowledge says that autotransformers tend to be noisey and are usually avoided in audio applications, this one did not really do anything to hurt the sound of my system. It also didn't really do anythig to improve the sound either, but since it provided me a level of equipment protection, I kept it in the system. I had a friend from work who live upstate in Monroe , NY and also had a high end system. One day I packed up the tripp lite and brought it to his place for a test drive. The results were jaw dropping. He and I both had Audio Research preamps, but whuile the coditioner did not do much of anthing to change the sound of mine, the SQ improvement in his house was dramatic. And it was even better when he plug the AC lines from his Martin Logan speakers into it. Obvilously he had some kind of trash on his line that I didn't and the Tripplite stripped it right out and cleaned up the signal.

It was the same thing with those Alan Maher Crystal boxes (I have some extras BTW, if you want to give them a try.). Some people heard a difference, others not so much. IMO that was because some people had a problem to begin with and some didn't.

We have one guy in the AudioSyndrome who used to pretty much shut down his system from Memorial Day through Labor Day becuase once his neighbors started up their central air units his stereo sounded like cr@p. several years ago he bougt a PS Audio regen unit and his system has been running 12 months a year since then. And I know wither people who tried one of the same regens and webt "eh" and sent it back.

About the only device that I have heard consisantly good reports about from everyone who has tried it is the PI Uberbuss, but like most relly good products, it's not cheap.
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Offline jimbones

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 09:11:54 AM »
I had a PS Audio P500 in my system. Worked well but generates heat. Another draw back in my eyes is that it is an "active" component as opposed to the "passive" devices like transformers and filters. I make the assumption (without any data) that it would have a higher probability of failure than the passive device.

I tried a ExactPower in my system but the transformer hummed fairly loudly so i was not able to do a good comparison but I don't believe it had as much of an improvement as the P500.  :x

Right now I am out of cash as i have spent quite a bit this year on my system and will just observe the power conditioning landscape before I make the plunge. 
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Offline HAL

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 09:35:24 AM »
I have a dedicated 20Amp service in the audio room.  The wife wanted light dimmers in the house.  No way to keep the noise out of the equipment even with the separate circuit.  Ended up with a PS Audio Power Plant Premier to handle the amp loads and no more dimmer noise.  Another piece that helped is a PI Audio Group UberBUSS.  Use that for the HAL MS-3 PC's to lower the AC noise floor from the SMPS. 

Those have worked well in the room for years.   

Offline jimbones

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 11:33:45 AM »
HAL, would you say one unit outperformed the other? (PS vs Uber?)
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Offline HAL

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 04:43:25 PM »
Hard to say as I use them both for different purposes.  If you want total isolation, the PPP is the best I have used.  If you need huge current reserve and line noise reduction the UberBUSS is the one.  In the past, I used the Uber to the wall and the PPP from the Uber to the equipment.  That worked very well. 

Problem is that the distance from the MS-3 Music Server setup to the system was to long and split the two setups to use the Uber with the PC system and PPP with the audio gear.

Offline jimbones

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 02:16:57 AM »
I don't have high current needs. Does the PPP generate a lot of heat?
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Offline BobM

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 05:55:41 AM »
Do you remember those ultra expensive (for the time) Hydra power conditioners that everyone with any real $ owned? They used to advertise something like "12 filtering components", but when you looked inside it had this:

1- outlets
2- wire
3- x-rated capacitors
4- varistor (surge protection)
5- box (big fat heavy aluminum thing with a milled "HYDRA" on it)
6 - junction block (for input power distribution)
7 - on/off switch
8 - fuse/breaker
9 - input IEC
10 - rubber feet
11 - chokes (other than the capacitor it was the only thing doing any filtering)
12 - fairy dust

You could build one of these for about $30, less the really expensive aluminum box, but they charged something like $3500 for them. In fact, Jon Risch put out plans for essentially the very same thing over at Audio Asylum and provided all the recommended parts. I built one for about $50, because I splurged a bit.

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Offline jimbones

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 09:06:42 AM »
True bob. But not the power regenerator.  They are fairly complex.
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Offline HAL

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 11:46:11 AM »
The PPP does not put out a lot of heat, unless it has a large load.  They do have quiet cooling fans in that case.

The PPP is no longer made, but there are newer models available. 

They are the only thing I ever found that eliminated light dimmer noise in my setup. 

Offline richidoo

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 01:18:58 PM »
Do you remember those ultra expensive (for the time) Hydra power conditioners that everyone with any real $ owned?

A friend had one on trial from the local dealer, it was a wet blanket on the sound, as most passive filtering power conditioners are. Running Springs was another popular passive conditioner brand with a similar effect. It's like Dolby B... yes it's quieter, but who can stand to use it when so much life is robbed from the music?  Filters aren't that bad as Dolby, or excessive NFB, and I'll grant there are many filters I've never heard which could be great. But I am willing to tolerate -60db hiss if it makes the music jump.

Offline jimbones

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 01:36:21 PM »
Rich, the bpt is a filter or not? I know you like them. The power regenerator I used in my system did not act li a wet blanket and actually sounded like more dynamic range.  Btw. My system does not sound noisey. It just seems better when I use power conditioner
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Offline richidoo

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 03:36:41 PM »
Hey Jim
A passive filter is one that uses passive components like caps, coils, diodes, things like that which filter out high freq noise. Basically it's a fancy, high power low pass filter. I'm sure there are some passive conditioners that don't reduce the life. I don't know how the UberBUSS works, but it certainly gets a lot of positive attention from people we all trust.

Regenerators like PSaudio, PurePower, are not passive filters. They are basically high power SS amplifiers. They play only one note, a 60Hz sinewave at very high power like 1000W. You put in 120V from the wall, it convertes it to ultra quiet DC, then a synthesized signal from DSP is sent to a power amp which puts out 120V 60Hz signal. Lots of feedback make very clean signal and a very low impedance current source so no harm to the micro transients in the music.

BPT, EQuitech, Furutech, Torus, etc, are transformer based isolation type conditioners. Being large coils, they also act as natural 1st order low pass filters. Not as steep filter slope as the passive and regen types, but good enough to keep the SMPS noise from computers out. Often this type of conditioner has additional passive filtering added to all or some of the outlets.

The Equitech that I used for a while had no negative effect on the life of the music, more like the opposite because of the improvement in the amps' sound. I still remember that system was one of the best I ever had. But a Purepower regen supplying an Esoteric digital stack, 400W Edge stereo power amp and Legacy Focus SE speaker was equally as impressive. No slouch there either.

Mostly every passive power conditioning device I put between the wall and my amps has always had a net negative effect for me. Maybe it was quieter, but the life and air is much more important to me than lowering and already low noise floor. Even a top o the line tripp power strip killed the life. Maybe it had filtering elements in it.

This is just my own prejudice based on my own experiences. I've not tried all new power conditioning products, and these things tend to evolve quickly. The products I tried are from 10 years ago. 

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: When a dedicated electrical line just isn't enough....
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 04:22:01 PM »
Rich, did you ever build a Felix AC power filter? I have had good luck with my 100 watt/8ohm per ch. class AB amp. I used a 2.4mH 17amp toroid core based inductor. I have not noticed a loss of dynamic life due to the filter.
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