Author Topic: Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard  (Read 9456 times)

Offline Carlman

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« on: March 07, 2007, 12:33:01 PM »
This is a digression that should've been its own topic.. so now it is.. ;)

I made a promise to directly compare everything before I made a change this year.  (New Year's rez)  So, I compared the TacT to a McIntosh C2200 pre and it was pretty close in overall resolution but a different presentation.  The Mac was a little more romantic and the TacT was a bit more precise and had better PRAT.  The bigger difference was a tube DAC vs. an oversampling DAC.  I learned that I like non-oversampling.  Giving up PRAT was the biggest sacrifice but I'm listening to music more now rather than gear since I've gone in this direction.

The C2200 used was not a perfect match to a brand-new C220 that I bought... The 2200 had cryo'd tubes and was fully broken-in.  

The 2200 paired with the Mc 501 monoblocks is about as good as it gets in my opinion.... it's it and that's that.  I'm happy to have the little sister's of each... the 220 and 402. :)  Because it's 95% of the performance of the primo-combo for 40% less dough.  But, if you want tube-sound with SS authority, you HAVE to save your pennies. ;)

Anyway, I'm digressing all over the place now.

As to sources... I just need a good interface and bit-perfect stream connected to a non-oversampling DAC.  If it's a PC, so be it... but IF I can find an interface that is silent and works as well as the PC, I'll be even happier.  So far, I have not found it... even with a modified SB3.  To me, the SB3's are good but just aren't at the same level as a real soundcard.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

miklorsmith

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 12:43:16 PM »
What SB3 configuration did you base the comparison on?

Offline Carlman

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 02:25:59 PM »
I compared 3:
Stock player/PS, stock player with linear PS, and an RWA modified unit w/ linear PS
I first compared them as transports to the TacT's digital input.
Then compared other configurations such as SB3 directly into amp compared to PC to TacT into amp...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

miklorsmith

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 02:30:55 PM »
Wow, much of a difference just as a transport, huh?  Can you describe differences?

Offline Carlman

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 03:22:46 PM »
Sorry, it has been too long since that particular comparison... I looked for our results on AC but didn't find any.  It was a regular meeting at my place when we did this.

I have back-to-back compared the SB3 stock as a transport to the Audio PC's M-Audio Delta DIO more often, though... The PC always has better overall detail level and a quieter background in that comparison....  The SB3 isn't bad, just not as good.  If it were as good, I certainly wouldn't be buying a Transporter.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

miklorsmith

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2007, 03:44:14 PM »
Are there any Aphile Approved soundcards?

To go this way instead of the streaming player route, it's a USB output from the soundcard, right?  This mandates a USB > s/pdif (or I2S) conversion, correct?  Then just pick your favorite DAC?

Do you know if the USB signal includes some clock signal or is it just a data signal?  Can a data signal exist without a clock signal?  The soundcard must have some kind of clock or it couldn't make sound?  Maybe the clock is just engaged for analog output via speakers?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to get my head around as much of this as I can.  I can see doing a lot of computer-related discussion in the future, ironic since I'm a computer idiot.

Offline Carlman

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2007, 07:19:03 PM »
OK, here's what I know...
This all started when I was talking to a local guy (goes by 'Hantra') who said that audio from a PC sounded really good... and then I started playing around with output from a headphone jack of a laptop... and I did indeed hear something special... but it was just a taste.

One thing led to another and various soundcard recipes started coming out... the geeks on Hydrogenaudio.org were proclaiming the M-audio 2496 'Audiophile' to be the best bargain at $25... and it output a bitperfect datastream... but now those guys pretty much say everything is bitperfect if it's digital... but I will try not to digress on that.

Anyway... the upper-end stuff starts coming out and people start using the analog out of the soundcards... (RME, EMU, Lynx, etc.) which is what I did.  So, I have a PC with a recording-studio-grade soundcard that could output digital and analog.  The idea of a USB DAC was not even a thought for me back then... That just adds a third option now...
(So, today, with this setup, I have analog out, 2 digital outputs, and USB output.)

Meanwhile, Hantra got himself this Lynx LM-22 badass soundcard that output some sweet analog.  It was about a $700 card IIRC.  Anyway, he found that he liked the digital out to a DAC of his choosing... and eventually I found the same but used the TacT as my DAC.

Then, along comes 2 things that are unrelated for the most part... the Squeezebox, which also plays analog or digital and the USB DAC which turns any PC into a transport and doesn't depend on the spdif output for bitperfection.

I've experimenting with the whole mix.  Soundcard spdif output (coax and optical), analog outs from the soundcard, and USB output from the PC into a USB-DAC.  Plus, I added in the Squeezebox as an alternative to the PC since it is functionally identical for sound reproduction.

Hope that helps explain my experience a bit more. :)
I really enjoy listening to music.

Hantra

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2007, 07:37:58 PM »
I think the larger difference here, and one of the reasons this DAC is so good is b/c it's USB>I2S.  There is something to that.  I don't even know what it all means, and don't really care.  But I've heard another I2S DAC that floored me too, although not as good as what I have now.  

I just got done comparing another near $10,000 DAC with mine, and while both have merits, and both are very good, I prefer the presentation of mine.  The difference is in the presentation, and that's it.  So you can spend $575, or close to $10k, and you get a slightly different presentation, which probably would make some people head over heels for the more expensive DAC.  But I'm telling you, the NOS + USB>I2S has something.  I wish I could figure out how to build a fully balanced one with transformer coupling and a volume control.  Just for fun.

Offline richidoo

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 06:03:02 PM »
Quote from: "miklorsmith"
Are there any Aphile Approved soundcards?

Card-Deluxe is the best PCI card made.
http://www.digitalaudio.com
Stereophile recommended component for many years  :wink:  JA review:
http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/280/index.html

By some miracle of engineering it is immune to noise inside the PC, it's floor is very low, and it sounds great. Here you have your DAC sitting on the PCI bus, no additional transmission protocols needed. It used to be Stereophile recommended component. I can't find the 2006 issue nor anything online so I can't tell if it still is or not. This would be for balanced analog outputs, but it has coax digital out also. $400.

Double Ugly

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 06:48:06 PM »
Quote from: "Carlman"
To me, the SB3's are good but just aren't at the same level as a real soundcard.

Quote from: "Carlman"
I compared 3:
Stock player/PS, stock player with linear PS, and an RWA modified unit w/ linear PS
I don't know how helpful this will be, but I strongly suggest you try to find a way to audition a fully-modified BOLDER Cable SB before making any definitive decisions.  

IMO, the BOLDER was waaaay better than a full-up RWA SB in virtually every conceivable way.  I no longer own a BOLDER product, but the contrast in performance between it and the RWA was downright startling to Kandy and I.

FWIW...


Quote from: "Carlman"
The SB3 isn't bad, just not as good.  If it were as good, I certainly wouldn't be buying a Transporter.
Did I miss something above, or are you really buying a Transporter?

If true, I might have some useful information.  If I did miss something, never mind.  :wink:

Take care,

-Jim

lonewolfny42

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 12:33:23 AM »
Jim....
Carl posted this in another thread....

"Well, 'plan b' is to try a Transporter instead of a PC. I'll miss my interface and web-browsing ability but I may incorporate a tablet PC or even PDA for the 'interactive' experience I've come to enjoy. Regardless, it'll be a big change.... I'm just hoping the sound quality will be as good.

I'll report back how that goes when it happens."

Double Ugly

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 01:23:11 AM »
Thanks, Chris.  

Given the time I've been on the road the past week, I figured I might've missed something...it just wasn't "above." :wink:

-Jim

lonewolfny42

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 01:32:59 AM »
Jim....It was in the Hardware Ward..... :D

Offline richidoo

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 06:35:03 AM »
Quote from: "carlman"
Well, 'plan b' is to try a Transporter instead of a PC. I'll miss my interface and web-browsing ability but I may incorporate a tablet PC or even PDA for the 'interactive' experience I've come to enjoy. Regardless, it'll be a big change.... I'm just hoping the sound quality will be as good.

The interface is becoming an issue with me too. I have to squint to see the SB even on large fonts which don't show whole title. Slimservere running on ReadyNAS is kinda slow, and browse returns to Now Playing after each selection which is very annoying. Of course SB is just as good a digital source as any, and can do justice to good upgrades. But the interface will likely the same because most people loveit. Maybe I could delete "Now Playing" from the menu... Hmmm..... :idea:

Anyway, I think the best GUI on a music player is the Sonos. It is 2 way interactive, RF control, color screen with album art. The ZP80 player has no amp, coax and optical outs, and analog input which lets you stream any analog source throughout the Sonos network. Combined with a Altmann jisco or attraction DAC is my idea of a digital great source.

I'm sure you already know that you can control Transporter by webbrowser too, although it is flaky as hell and drives me crazy with my ReadyNAS as slimserver.

I would be really interested in hearing the RAM analog upgrades for Transporter.
Rich

Offline Carlman

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Transports - Streaming vs. Soundcard
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2007, 01:44:03 PM »
I guess I basically want a hi-fi equivalent of Sonos... They have the most intuitive and intelligent design I've seen.
The only problem is the interface... which has always been the problem with a PC-based system... How to control it... I find the PDA-controlled Slim-device setup to be a bit challenging... I'd rather have a tablet-sized screen, at least 9" or so.. that can also surf the web if I need to.  I've found having a PC with internet access in your soundroom is pretty handy.

All that said, the interface is still much easier than actually handling cd's (to me).  I don't know what I want to hear... I like to browse... I can't read all those tiny splines easily when there's 3,000 of them lined up right next to each other... I can't increase the font size on them. ;)

It's also much easier to keep my collection organized, or change the organization as-needed....

We'll see how it goes... my guess is that the Slim Devices setup will get better... I know they have a Nokia interface that's supposed to be good...

My unit is on backorder still... so won't know what works best for a few weeks yet...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.