AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: richidoo on September 18, 2007, 12:23:09 PM
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Weird new speaker technology:
http://www.planotspeaker.com/
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I'll have to go back and read that again. I'm still not getting the Mobius thing unless I'm imagining his description wrong.
Bryan
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Richadoo,
Great find. At least its innovative. A bit tough to swallow at first read. Im with Bpape this requires a second read. Maybe one of our contributing dealers could negotiate a demo unit. Could be promising.
rollo
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I didn't get it either. I think we need an engineer to explain it to us. (If it works... ) He won't have many copycats --- hahaha
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I mean I understand what a Mobius is but am not seeing how this acts that way unless I totally missed the boat. Had a couple beers after work last night - that was not helping trying to reread :beer:
Bryan
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(sniffsniff) I smell hype...
Labeling the concept "Mobius" (more properly Moebius) seems a bit optimistic. By definition, a Moebius surface has closed ends. What I see is a long triangular prism.
If one draws a vertical line down each long face, one side will be moving forward, the centerline will siimply be shimmying side-to-side, and the other side will be moving backward. That is assuming that the triangular transducing element really is rigid. My instinct is to think that the proposed arrangement would be lacking power in the bass and midrange. The treble frequencies would display serious lateral dispersion issues as the two opposing waves from each face interfere.
In "real life", the triangular body will display torsional flexure. This will dilute the sound output, but more seriously it would affect time coherence as the undriven end loads up on torsional energy, then overshoots (in both space and time) while the driven end is responding to the voice-coil impulse. A beam that long is effectively a spring. Even with low mass, high rigidity (foamed diamond would be nice, lol) and good damping, the transducer will resonate, or try to do so.
Of course, this is all armchair theorizin' on my behalf. The proof is in the hearing, after all. I hope that our esteemed Planotaries have a demonstrator for the expurts to see and hear once the patent is in the bag.
Until then, I ever-so-humbly (ya right) suggest that a technology exists that achieves much of what they're attempting, and with much less engineering contortions: the horn-loaded tractrix.
cheers ww
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I am the inventor of the Planot speaker. I would be glad to answer any questions you might have about the design or marketing of the Planot.
John
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I am the inventor of the Planot speaker. I would be glad to answer any questions you might have about the design or marketing of the Planot.
John
Cool! Welcome and thanks for joining us, John!
Do you have any photos (or videos) of the Planot speaker in action? I'm not an engineer or designer, just curious to see it working. Looks really neat. :)
-C
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Hello John, and welcome. I will reread the descriptions so I can formulate a half brained question. It will be cool to start this topic back up again. Looking forward to learning more about it.
Rich
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I have a video of the testing of P3 at NCEE Labs in their 10 meter semi-anechoic chamber. It is not too interesting. Just doing 1/3 octave test tones. The observation that impressed me the most was the smoothness of the response. When P4 is completed I will have that tested and the test session will also be video taped. See the still photo under the Images page at http://www.planotspeaker.com .
I am looking for alternative testing labs near Omaha Nebraska so if you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
Everyone wants a video on YouTube. Do you think it would help? The audio is not going to tell you much at all. The whole audio tracked could be faked. I could do that easily enough. What I want is authenticity. If I have reviewers, who are well known to the public, in the video and they later write about the experience then that is pretty much incontestable.
Many people are very adamant that this "thing" can't work. I have been talking with a "super computer" [The Holland Center for Computing--they have the 15th fastest supercomputer in the world here in Omaha, Nebraska--connected to the University of Nebraska at Omaha] institution about doing a simulation, a model if you will, of how the driver moves air and what happens to the phase of the wave--why there is no out of phase cancelation. But so far I have had limited luck. I have found from past experience that dealing with universities is very difficult at best and I am loosing faith in the Holland Center. At LEAST they have talked to me. There has got to be some very interesting science here. Anyone with any knowledge of physics agrees that the Planot just flat out does not work! Phase is a quality that is a component of al wave physics not just sound but the whole electromagnetic spectrum. Whew, sorry when I am given an audience I do run on.
I will then, it is my hope, have several reviewers from the audio press here in Omaha for an audition session. It really makes more sense to have multiple reviewers come here and audition it at the same time. They will be sent copies of the test CD I have complied. (This has been my modus operandi so far.) They become familiar with these selections on their own systems and then listen to the same selections on my speaker. (It would be best if they would rip them with Apple lossless format to their iPod, who does not have one, and listen to the selections over a very good pair of head phones, Sorry Mr. Jobs, therefore minimizing the difference between the listening systems of the reviews. This also removes the various acoustic environments from the equations.
By having several reviewer listen at the same time their reviews may be "averaged" and hopefully this test setting will produce a more accurate appraisal of the unit under testing. I challenge the audio press to consider this format for future reviews of equipment. Each publication could send reviewers to a location to review groups of equipment. I realize this could not be done all of the time but would constitute a grand prix of sorts that could be held periodically for reviewing significant equipment.
Anyway that will be my setup. I will video tape the listening and the responses. I think it could be a significant event in itself as an example of a true advance in equipment evaluation methodology.
What are your thoughts?
John
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By the way a Möbius strip is an object that has one side. The Planot (TM) diaphragm functions, as far as the phase of the output [in relation to all other speakers] as though it had just a front side. It acts as though there is no backside to generate an out of phase wave to cancel the front wave. I thought it was a clever analogy. I have since removed the reference from my Web site as I think more people focused negatively on the Möbius reference than what the rest of the site had to say.
John
Wikipedia uses the spelling Möbius.
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Good luck John. If it can actually be made to work as you describe, it would have a lot of potential. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about this. Are you in Omaha specifically or are you just testing it there? I'm in St. Louis. Might be worth a drive depending on timing and the situation.
Bryan
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Very cool. I saw you your web site where "Advanced hobbyists may also be interested in building their own for experimentation. Serious metal working skills will be required.".
I'm pretty good at building things and have a mill and lathe and access to other goodies should I need them. Is there a license available for a diy person to build a pair for themselves?
Mike
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Very cool. I saw you your web site where "Advanced hobbyists may also be interested in building their own for experimentation. Serious metal working skills will be required.".
I'm pretty good at building things and have a mill and lathe and access to other goodies should I need them. Is there a license available for a diy person to build a pair for themselves?
Mike
Yes, my plans are to sell a special license for a person to build two full range drivers. The license will be included with the plans. The person must sign the license and have it notarized. When I receive payment I will send a copy of the counter signed document and the plans back to the person. Please, note though that other skills may be required other than metal working skills. Prototype 4 (P4) has a carbon fiber diaphragm.
But then that is the beauty of DIY. You can use any materials you wish.
Please note that due to very high startup costs I will probably not be selling a kit although have not ruled out that possibility. Their has been so very much interest world wide, literally world wide from the Canary Islands to New Zealand to Russia and China and all of Europe and Great Britain, that I could be selling kits in the near future as I may partner with a local manufacturer.
Up till now people loved the concept they just did not believe that it worked. Now with National Certification of the concept interest has as they say, gone through the roof.
Soon I may be able to announce a major licensing agreement.
John
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Hi John, thans for hangin around here to answer questions and tell us more about your speaks.
Jon Scull can help with you PR and get you connected to the right people. He is a nice guy. PR is >50% of any success in this, or any biz. http://www.scullcommunications.com/
Some questions I thought of while reading your site:
How good is vertical treble dispersion above the height of the top of the speaker? Do you rely on floor reinforcement for bass or can the speaker be raised up to mitigate the height issue, if there is any?
Are you concerned with diffraction or turbulence caused by the sharp edges of the triangular diaphragm? Turbulence being non-linear I would think you would want to minimize that.
At higher frequencies I would guess that the diaphragm is vibrating rotationally through a very small angle. Does the frequency response vary through an arc? Put another way, do the points and flats of the diaphragm project sound different from each other enough to affect tone in different horizontal listening locations?
I am curious about what looks to be a rather high moving mass if traditional high strength materials are used. With steel frame to support the diaphragm faces, rotational axle and bearings, 48" x 3/4" carbon faces, and a voice coil with what looks to be a very high moment of inertia, minimizing moving mass must have been a major design criteria. Voice coil current capacity vs. wire mass must have been a tricky compromise too. Maybe silver windings?
Beryllium, magnesium and ceramic drivers, as well as some ultralightweight paper drivers, ESL and true ribbon transducers are all very low mass and provide extreme detail. Can the Planot hang with these big boys at the microdetail party? That's what a lot of audiophiles really like - when the detail remains within the bounds of a musical performance. :D
I noticed that the purple text used to identify parts of the speaker in your 'How it works' section are unreadable against the blue background, hindering the explanation. Also the fixed popup window size does not allow the pixels on the bottom of the picture to be seen. No biggie, I just can't help myself but to mention it.
The press will always follow a good story, so you can make a story worthy of their attention by letting loudmouth audiophiles hear your speakers and tell everybody they know. Probably the most economical and practical way to expose the speakers to the ears of many audiophiles is to exhibit your speakers at Rocky Mountain Audio Festival. All of the press now gives it full coverage, maybe equal to CES for 2channel audio gear. It is cheaper than CES to exhibit and it is a great place to interface with your potential customers, get feedback from hundreds of attendees and press, and if your exhibit is exceptional, you will get some print. If you are seeking a review in a major magazine there is only one way to get that, now someone or exhibit at a tradeshow where the reviewers scout for products that make stories that will sell magazines. Planot on the cover of Stereophile? I would wanna read that article!
I hope you would consider publishing buildable plans for your speakers. If someone of mgalusha's stature in the DIY community were to say "Yeah, not bad..." there would be a lot of people that would become very interested very quickly. Don't discount the forums as a place to build your business from grass roots without the press. Press will catch on when there is something in it for them moneywise. Audiophiles just want stuff that sounds good, and they will tell the honest truth according to their beliefs. 100 Planots being talked about regularly by diyaudiophiles will establish that "averaged review concensus" you described. If your invention is patented you can harvest the experience and experimenting effort of your DIY builders, building a reputation and creating a movement. Manufacturers will be more interested in licensing your transducer if it is already working in people's homes. Same as any novel invention.
Sorry for the long wind, and thanks for your reponses to my questions! I hope I have not put you on the spot, just genuinely interested in something so radical and with such great potential. Thanks!
Rich
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John,
Thanks for all the information, I'll be watching with great interest.
Mike
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Rich, thank you for your thought full questions.
Hi John, thans for hangin around here to answer questions and tell us more about your speaks.
Some questions I thought of while reading your site:
How good is vertical treble dispersion above the height of the top of the speaker?
• I would say way better than I would have expected even in the anechoic chamber.
Do you rely on floor reinforcement for bass or can the speaker be raised up to mitigate the height issue, if there is any?
• Well, I have not had an opportunity to try that, raising it up in the air.
Are you concerned with diffraction or turbulence caused by the sharp edges of the triangular diaphragm? Turbulence being non-linear I would think you would want to minimize that.
• Well on an airfoil as the chord gets shorter and the length of the wing gets longer turbulence approaches zero. Guess what?
At higher frequencies I would guess that the diaphragm is vibrating rotationally through a very small angle. Does the frequency response vary through an arc? Put another way, do the points and flats of the diaphragm project sound different from each other enough to affect tone in different horizontal listening locations?
• Well I think the diaphragm is too small in cross section for that to be audible at listening distance. Here again I need to have this thing modeled on a computer.
I am curious about what looks to be a rather high moving mass if traditional high strength materials are used. With steel frame to support the diaphragm faces, rotational axle and bearings, 48" x 3/4" carbon faces, and a voice coil with what looks to be a very high moment of inertia, minimizing moving mass must have been a major design criteria. Voice coil current capacity vs. wire mass must have been a tricky compromise too. Maybe silver windings?
• You will not believe how efficient this thing is given the really small magnets! The voice coil actually leverages its length (grin or groan).
Beryllium, magnesium and ceramic drivers, as well as some ultralightweight paper drivers, ESL and true ribbon transducers are all very low mass and provide extreme detail. Can the Planot hang with these big boys at the microdetail party? That's what a lot of audiophiles really like - when the detail remains within the bounds of a musical performance.
• Microdetail, you want microdetail? Ha ha. I think everyone is going to be very surprised about the high frequency response as much as they are about the low frequency response.
I am formulating a theory about that and it has to do with the fact that diaphragms must be rigid. Period. Anything less that absolute rigidity is a disaster. But tweeters must be light not so much because of the principal of lighter equals better performance but lighter allows for a more compliant surround. This is the critical point. The surround (and spider) are evil! They are the components that allow cones and domes to work. What do you do. You do away with their dictatorship. Once you are freed from the surround then the diaphragm can be absolutely rigid because its own weight, for one thing, does not have to be supported by the surround. The support of the diaphragm is independent of performing other contradictory functions like "holding the diaphragm up against gravity." The support, centering and dampening functions can be separated and each function performed by an appropriate and separate subassembly. Form separates functions.
I noticed that the purple text used to identify parts of the speaker in your 'How it works' section are unreadable against the blue background, hindering the explanation. Also the fixed popup window size does not allow the pixels on the bottom of the picture to be seen. No biggie, I just can't help myself but to mention it.
• Everyone else has said the inverse to me.
The press will always follow a good story, so you can make a story worthy of their attention by letting loudmouth audiophiles hear your speakers and tell everybody they know. Probably the most economical and practical way to expose the speakers to the ears of many audiophiles is to exhibit your speakers at Rocky Mountain Audio Festival. All of the press now gives it full coverage, maybe equal to CES for 2channel audio gear. It is cheaper than CES to exhibit and it is a great place to interface with your potential customers, get feedback from hundreds of attendees and press, and if your exhibit is exceptional, you will get some print. If you are seeking a review in a major magazine there is only one way to get that, now someone or exhibit at a tradeshow where the reviewers scout for products that make stories that will sell magazines. Planot on the cover of Stereophile? I would wanna read that article!
• I hope to be at Rocky Mountain next year. The main audiophile paper magazines usually do not review prototypes although I'd obviously love to have them as guests as I have stated many times and in many places and that may yet happen.
I hope you would consider publishing buildable plans for your speakers. If someone of mgalusha's stature in the DIY community were to say "Yeah, not bad..." there would be a lot of people that would become very interested very quickly. Don't discount the forums as a place to build your business from grass roots without the press. Press will catch on when there is something in it for them moneywise. Audiophiles just want stuff that sounds good, and they will tell the honest truth according to their beliefs. 100 Planots being talked about regularly by diyaudiophiles will establish that "averaged review concensus" you described. If your invention is patented you can harvest the experience and experimenting effort of your DIY builders, building a reputation and creating a movement. Manufacturers will be more interested in licensing your transducer if it is already working in people's homes. Same as any novel invention.
• You hit the nail on the head. You have just stated an excellent strategy! Who will be the first?
Sorry for the long wind, and thanks for your reponses to my questions! I hope I have not put you on the spot, just genuinely interested in something so radical and with such great potential. Thanks!
Rich
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Very definitely let us know where you're at for RMAF. I'd love to come hear them - prototype form or not.
Bryan
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Thank you very much John. Congratulations on your invention. I will probably buy a kit when they become available.
Rich
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Once I get my room built... (June-July) I will have the best audio comparison room I've ever been in. We have a pretty enthusiastic group of audiophiles at a variety of experience levels. It's be a real treat to review your speakers here. So, consider this an invitation to try them in NC.
Thanks,
Carl
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Planot(R) speaker update...
The US Patent and Trademark Office awarded me a patent for my diaphragm design in December of 2010.
I have been talking with many manufacturers but I can not yet announce a product on the market. The May issue of Voice Coil Magazine featured the Planot speaker in a cover article. That article resulted in more manufacturer contacts. Voice Coil editor Vance Dickson has agreed to review a prototype when I have one ready to ship.
A press release in 6moons.com has boosted monthly traffic on my Web site by thousands of visits. 6moons's , Srajam Ebaen, has agreed to review a Planot prototype, as soon as I have review units available. I have posted Google Analytics traffic data on my site.
People have been requesting I publish measurements for some time. I have now published frequency and phase measurements on my Web site.
Again, if you are interested in speakers utilizing Planot technology contact manufacturers and tell them, you encourage them to investigate licensing Planot technology.
I am working with companies to produce a supply of voice coils and magnets and I will be making new motors based on a proprietary design. The motor contributes a significant amount to response and efficiency.
Thanks for your interest,
John J. Gaudreault
http://www.planotspeaker.com
info@planotspeaker.com
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Congratulations on your patent, John. I look forward to hearing it in action.
Rich
Voice Coil magazine preview by editor Vance Dickason:
http://www.planotspeaker.com/Planot/Home_files/VCMay2011Planot.pdf
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Pictures
http://www.planotspeaker.com/Planot/Images.html