Author Topic: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"  (Read 12215 times)

Offline Nick B

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 01:08:06 PM »
Thanks Bill and Dave. It seems like any title other than one having the word expert in it would be a good idea
 :roll:
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 01:14:47 PM »
Thanks Bill and Dave. It seems like any title other than one having the word expert in it would be a good idea
 :roll:
Nick
+1  :thumb:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Hugh

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
    • Angel City Audio
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 01:29:41 PM »
People are obsessed with title such as experts, divas, living legends,...

Personally, I think it's all BS.

What I am trying to avoid (for all of us in general and this site in particular) is for some newcomers who happened to visit our site and got taken aback by some unintentional advices which they find out later to be not really accurate hen it's bad for the site's reputation.
Hugh Nguyen
Angel City Audio
Exclusive Melody US Distributor

Offline _Scotty_

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
  • “Sic transit gloria mundi”
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 02:44:02 PM »
For myself, when looking for solutions to a problem or knowledgeable advice, I kind of take the approach used by our legal system in regards to expert testimony.
 Quoted wholesale in some instances from the Free Dictionary.com legal section.
"..., the law allows witnesses to provide opinion evidence, and such evidence is divided into two classes, lay opinion and expert opinion. A lay witness may give his or her opinion when that opinion is (1) rationally based on the perception of the witness..."
 This could be useful anecdotal evidence derived empirically from observed phenomena.
"Expert witnesses are persons who are qualified, either by actual experience or by careful study, to form definite opinions with respect to a division of science, a branch of art,or a department of trade.
Courts do not apply a rigid rule in determining whether a particular witness is qualified to testify as an expert. Instead, an expert's qualifications are normally evaluated on a witness-by-witness basis."
 Neither do I
 There are a number of people on this forum that I may solicit advice from about a specific problem.
Whether they manufacture an audio product or not is immaterial to me. Some of the most useful assistance I have had has been from those who manufacture a product for audio.
 I think The Experts Corner is potentially a very good source of useful information for those of us with the disease. This is frequently information that is not readily available on the web even to those possessing superior Google-fu.
Scotty
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Expert+Testimony
dictionary.com
Noun 1.expert witness - a witness who has knowledge not normally possessed by the average person concerning the topic that he is to testify about

Offline Nick B

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 02:59:42 PM »
I reread my post to topround and it was  "over the top".  I went too far. Maybe it's cumulative as to negative posts overall. Maybe it's that I had a tough day rehabbing from a surgical procedure a few days ago. In any event, thanks for all the comments and let's continue to improve and fine tune things.
I do want to maintain and further develop a positive focus on the forum.
Thanks,
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Hugh

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
    • Angel City Audio
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 03:11:09 PM »
Who would have the title "expert" bestowed upon them?

Would it be a manufacturer?  Wouldn't "manufacturer" be a more apt title?
Would it be a dealer?  Wouldn't "dealer" be a more apt title.
Would it be an ardent audio enthusiast?  Wouldn't the term "audiophile " be best suited here?

Who here would have such insecurity issues that they would even want that expert title bestowed upon them??

This was a good thread to start.. it allowed some soul searching and was thought provoking, let's have more conversation like this!!!good stuff.
I've never been one to avoid pulling the pin on a controversy grenade and rolling it into the center of the room.  As long as conversation is civil, it's all good.

Making the point that we are all or none of us are experts was my full intention. 

I think maybe a better name for this area of AN would be "The Think Tank".  A place where we can gert group think going on gnarly problems that we all have on occasion.

I'd go for Think Tank.  :thumb:
Hugh Nguyen
Angel City Audio
Exclusive Melody US Distributor

Offline mdconnelly

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • new ways to dream...
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2017, 07:09:14 AM »
10,000 hour rule.   There are certainly people that frequent here that I would very much like to hear from on different topics because they have depth of experience and thus, I consider it expertise.   None call themselves experts - they let their experience and insight speak for itself.   

But with that said, opinion comes at far fewer hours.  (like this post  :duh )

Offline Nick B

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 03:28:11 PM »
10,000 hour rule.   There are certainly people that frequent here that I would very much like to hear from on different topics because they have depth of experience and thus, I consider it expertise.   None call themselves experts - they let their experience and insight speak for itself.   

But with that said, opinion comes at far fewer hours.  (like this post  :duh )

Good link! Now there's a guy who knows what he's talking about!? 🤔
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 04:58:14 PM »
10,000 hour rule.   There are certainly people that frequent here that I would very much like to hear from on different topics because they have depth of experience and thus, I consider it expertise.   None call themselves experts - they let their experience and insight speak for itself.   

But with that said, opinion comes at far fewer hours.  (like this post  :duh )
Hey, Mike.  Great post.  Before I became a member here I lurked for over a year after having been asked to post here by a couple of members that I respect very much.  After everything blew up at the "other place" I knew it was time to either establish a new forum or simply move.  Guess what won out.  There are many people here that I have found to be understated sources for very good info.  I want to thank the people that invited me over.  It feels good here and I think that the best is yet to come for AN.  No self proclaimed egotistical experts , but a bunch of people that love good audio and try to move forward.  Cool, huh? |:D|
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline _Scotty_

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
  • “Sic transit gloria mundi”
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 09:02:28 PM »
About that "10,000 hour rule" It appears that it is not a hard and fast rule according to a new Princeton study.
Quoting from the abstract, " We found that deliberate practice explained 26% of the variance in performance for games, 21% for music, 18% for sports, 4% for education, and less than 1% for professions. We conclude that deliberate practice is important, but not as important as has been argued."
Link to abstract http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0956797614535810
Link to Business Insider article discussing study findings. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-destroys-malcolm-gladwells-10000-rule-2014-7
 I thought that the 10,000 hour rule applied in some way to a pilots seat time. :shock:
While I have involved with, some might argue wasted time and money on, this hobby for around 40 years, that wouldn't qualify as a deliberate study or a focused curriculum. Which explains my vast amount of ignorance in specific technical areas related to this hobby. About 20 years ago when I purchased my Win98 computer I never dreamed I would be using it to playback and store my music. Don't get me wrong, this is a great place to end up at but boy, what a long strange trip its been.
Scotty
Scotty

Offline mdconnelly

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • new ways to dream...
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2017, 05:46:30 AM »
I once had a very wise piano teacher.   He said that to learn to play the piano you must practice.  But be aware that making the same mistake over and over again in practice is essentially learning how to play that mistake.    After close to 10 years of lessons I was quite convinced I learned to be a pretty poor piano player.   I'll never pretend to be good at it, but still, I have a lot of good info to share about the process.

It would seem that this concept may apply in all things we strive to do.

djdube525

  • Guest
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2017, 06:24:55 AM »
About that "10,000 hour rule" It appears that it is not a hard and fast rule according to a new Princeton study.
Quoting from the abstract, " We found that deliberate practice explained 26% of the variance in performance for games, 21% for music, 18% for sports, 4% for education, and less than 1% for professions. We conclude that deliberate practice is important, but not as important as has been argued."
Link to abstract http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0956797614535810
Link to Business Insider article discussing study findings. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-destroys-malcolm-gladwells-10000-rule-2014-7
 I thought that the 10,000 hour rule applied in some way to a pilots seat time. :shock:
While I have involved with, some might argue wasted time and money on, this hobby for around 40 years, that wouldn't qualify as a deliberate study or a focused curriculum. Which explains my vast amount of ignorance in specific technical areas related to this hobby. About 20 years ago when I purchased my Win98 computer I never dreamed I would be using it to playback and store my music. Don't get me wrong, this is a great place to end up at but boy, what a long strange trip its been.
Scotty
Scotty

FWIW... The 10,000 Hour Rule was popularized by Malcom Gladwell in Outliers (should be available in your local library)

Link to Freakonomics Podcast (this is an audio forum after all  :lol:) with Malcom where they discuss, among other things,  the 10,000 hour rule, the controversy around the rule.

Offline StereoNut

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
  • So much great music, so little time!
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2017, 06:34:59 AM »
I think that an "Experts Corner" is redundant to what this forum is all about. In it's most simplest terms, it is an exchange of ideas and opinions. Whether a member with a garage sale pieced together system has something to add to the thread/conversation or someone with a gazillion $$$ system does, it's all the same. Manufacturer, scientist, engineer, butcher, baker or candlestick maker... it doesn't matter where or who it comes from! Everyone on this forum has THE single most important testing devices for all things audio and they're on the sides of our own heads! What does matter is the content of the responses, the clarity of the explanations behind them and MOST IMPORTANTLY, how the theory of all of it translates to what we hear. AND understanding that many times theory and the reality of listening WILL NOT match up!

I've said this countless times. If any one change in our system makes it sounds better to us, does it really matter why or the science behind it?

Here are my two most important word associations for this hobby.
SYNERGY is to SYSTEM, as is SOUND to our EARS.

Rant over.

Respectfully,
SN
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:36:30 AM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2017, 08:10:26 AM »
   From my personal experience experts have taught me allot. Learned from one of the best Maggie set up person around. Actually two Jim Winey and Scott Markwell. When Scott set up my Maggies never better.
   When I desired a new electrical feed consisting of dedicated lines,new panel I consulted with experts. What did I know ? Correct wire ga. for individual components. Etc, etc.
   Just saying we do not know it all. Experimenting can be costly. Most of us go sideways without help of some kind. Well seasoned or field expert dosn't matter. What matters is advice when tried works.
    Break-in for example for me was always 24/7 until hours reached. Then at the DC DIY Club David Berning explained to me why it was necessary to use intervals of 6 hours on 6 hours off. The dielectric needs to settle he said. After numerous years of breaking in components for shows and customers and Beta testing I can actually now hear and discern the process.
   Same with synergy of components. Yes at the end of the day our ears which are very familiar with our sound is the determining factor no argument there. However if a seasoned audio person or expert suggests why there is a synergy between say a tubed preamp and SS amp I'll try that combo. Even something so simple as shielding phono ICs with Alum foil. Actually Scott Gramlich was telling us about that from his Studio work. When I saw alum foil on his personal system I laughed. He took it off and I learned right away why he did it.
   For me there is no need to know the science or engineering behind why. My ears will tell me that. Good direction or suggestion is a good thing.
   


charles
   
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline _Scotty_

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
  • “Sic transit gloria mundi”
Re: Just what comprises and who is an "Expert?"
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2017, 08:26:53 AM »
Certainly anytime you attempt to learn a new physical activity you can practice how to do it incorrectly.
Videos of beginners in archery and firearms usage show people doing all sorts of things that, unless immediately corrected, will result in learning how to do it wrong with great proficiency.
 Then there those who are naturally gifted with physical aptitude and the intelligence to understand instructions. They are slightly depressing to encounter but very easy to teach.
 The key is not to teach them everything YOU know.
Scotty