Author Topic: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub  (Read 39653 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2018, 02:54:11 PM »
Still looking into subs. Was looking at Dannys 12” kit and waiting for a guy to contact me and give a quote to build the cabinet. It appears best performance is between a 1.5 to 1.8 cu ft enclosure. Does anyone know if making it smaller will simply lessen the performance from maybe 18 hz to say 24 hz?
I presume it will screw up the performance, but just wanted to ask. The F12 Rythmik is too big. L12 not too bad as to size....and money.
Another question is what is the effect of having to use a splitter for the line connection?
the cabinet plans for danny's subwoofer kit will give you a subwoofer with the exact dimensions as the rythmik f12.  yes, you could likely make it smaller, but it seems that specific size has been optimized.  perhaps it's worth querying danny and/or rythmik about it.  i'd also query rythmik about whether they could sell you a special L12 w/the a370 amp instead of the hx300, as this would basically give you the smaller cabinet w/the same amp & driver as the f12 or danny's kit w/his cabinet plans.  (they actually sell an f12 w/the hx300 amp for less $; maybe they'd do it in reverse, for an upcharge over the regular L12.)  might save time/money.

i wouldn't worry about any issues w/using a splitter, unless your output impedance of your preamp (or source) is more than 1.5k.  typically, you want to make sure that your output impedance is 1/10th the input impedance of the amps.  using a splitter will effectively be reducing the input impedance of the amps by about half.  but, your amp has input impedance of 100k, and the rythmik amps have input impedance of 30k; it's unlikely that you have a source that is more than 1.5k output impedance.  at 1.5k output impedance of your sources, the rythmik's effective 15k input impedance resulting from using a splitter will have no effect; w/the mccormack amp's effective 50k impedance, it's the same.

doug s.


I like your ideas,  Doug. I just sent an email to Rythmik detailing my situation. Would like to get the sub situation resolved.
Nick
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Offline rollo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2018, 11:01:07 AM »
  I agree with Doug an excellent sub for your consideration.

charles
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Offline shadowlight

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2018, 11:17:11 AM »
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2018, 12:15:35 PM »
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.

D, they do? I will check it out right now. Thanks!
Nick
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Offline shadowlight

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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2018, 10:08:54 AM »
I read this entire thread again as it’s time to buy a sub. Current equipment is an ICE 1200as amp, Audio Hungary APR 204 tube preamp (coming soon from Charles), a Border Patrol SE dac and my KEF LS 50s.
I have narrowed down sub choices to SVS SB 1000, Definitive Technology Supercube 4000, Rythmik L12 and maybe a dsp custom unit from Rick Craig at Selah. The Selah would be a bit pricey at over $1,000.
My preferences are a smaller than larger footprint, less than 50 lbs and that’s one of the reasons I like the SVS SB 1000, the bass response is down to 24 Hz and it’s about $500 new.

I would like comments about the value of a dsp unit like what Rick would make for me vs just getting a non dsp sub. Is a dsp sub worth having ? Ideally, I’d like to place it in the left front corner. Not critical, but an ideal placement. If I get a regular sub or servo controlled unit and it’s not the ideal location, then I’d lose some performance. I’ve read up on the subwoofer crawl thing, so that should dial in the best location.
I’d appreciate any comments
Nick
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/supercube-4000
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000



« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:10:52 AM by Nick B »
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
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TWL Digital American II p cord
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Offline richidoo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2018, 12:58:19 PM »
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly

For time alignment to the main speakers, position the sub at or within the radius of the main speakers to your listening position. Ideally the KEF woofer and center of sub cone should be the exact same distance to your earhole, within 2". If the sub is closer to you than the mains, use the sub delay knob to compensate. If the sub is farther from you than the mains (like you propose, and like most subs hidden in the front corner) then you MUST use DSP to delay the main speakers to allow the sub wave to catch up. miniDSP? HT Rx? Pre/pro? etc...

Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2018, 02:22:37 PM »
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly
Would you be surprised if I agreed with you?  ;)
Phase alignment is very important, misalignment with certainly show up in the frequency domain. I also recommend, regardless of budget, 2 subs, never one, unless you listen only to pop/HT. There is spatial content down to very low frequencies with acoustic music and mono bass has zero chance of reproducing that. My 2c

cheers,

AJ
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2018, 08:11:36 PM »
Ok, I get it re the time alignment thing. This kind of implies that a fair number of folks are getting mediocre/less than optimal sound,  by putting a sub in an out of the way spot and hoping for the best. I was going to place the sub in front of the left speaker and near the side wall, either firing toward the center...at a right angle to the front of the kef, or angled toward my listening chair. Kind of like the left side of an isosceles triangle.
If I pick a small enough sub, it could permanently be in the center in front of the equipment rack and the speakers.  It’s its too big, then it’s a no as to function and looks. Moving a sub into position each time I listen doesn’t sound like fun.
What’s the value of the old subwoofer crawl then if you don’t have a sub with dsp capability?
As to two subs, I’d prefer not to do it. It’s a small living room and it has to be functional. I don’t listen to classical and a lot of the music is fair to middling. I’d rather listen to songs that I like than songs where the recordings are outstanding, but I don’t care for the content. Maybe some day when I have a dedicated listening room.
As to a servo sub, wouldn’t the servo software act like dsp capability rendering the placement not as critical?
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Offline richidoo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #144 on: July 14, 2018, 09:03:07 AM »
Here's a sub for ya, Nick



https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html

If you use a 7 gallon bucket instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #145 on: July 14, 2018, 09:43:48 AM »
Here's a sub for ya, Nick



https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html

If you use a 7 gallon bucket instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB

Rich,
Hmm, an Ed Schilling special 😀 Building one of these had not been on my “bucket list”. But I admire the ingenuity. At the rate I’m going in trying to understand the brave new world of subwoofers,
maybe I’ll do it. Or I could simply get the KEF R300 and sell the LS 50s.
https://www.kefdirect.com/r300-bookshelf-speaker-pair.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7aqKtoSf3AIVg8hkCh2NhQeuEAQYASABEgK0yfD_BwE
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
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Offline rollo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #146 on: July 14, 2018, 11:13:44 AM »
  Let me add a thingie or two. I would not use outboard subs. Would prefer a full range speaker instead. Or at a minimum 30Hz at bottom.  Either Fritz or AJ's speaker. Bass  is low enough for most music. I had both AJ's and Fritz in my home. Both excellent designs. Both do not require a sub. KEF makes a VG speaker as well however IMHO overwhelming on top.
AJ's design is excellent all around.
Getting a sub or subs can be a royal PITA to get right. With the stand mounted speaker being 2ft from front wall the bass will be naturally reinforced from that wall. Save your money on the sub, subs and considera different speaker.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #147 on: July 14, 2018, 04:52:10 PM »
Lots of opinions and I appreciate that. Why can’t anything ever be easy  :duh  From what I’ve read so far, the time alignment thing applies whether or not the sub is firing down or to the front. Earlier, I certainly understood that there was some trial and error in dialing in the best performance, but wasn’t aware of this aspect.
I certainly can, for more money of course, get two reasonably sized subs and put them between the speakers and on each side of the equipment rack and parallel to the front of the kefs and apparently no time alignment issues....maybe. I wonder, though, the effect of having the couch on the left side of the room. It would be about 2’ back from the side of the couch and the couch would cover ...from 2’ back...about have of a 12” driver. Would that affect the performance of the apparent omni  directional low frequency waves, I have no idea. Now if I keep my analog rig, then another rack would be necessary and be right next to the current rack, so there’d be no room for two subs. I wouldn’t place that second sub out in the living room as apparently that would cause a time alignment problem and  another reason certainly being my wife’s desires not to do so. 
Then with two subs there are more wires to deal with. Sooo, I’ll keep reading and getting opinions for the time being.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
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TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #148 on: July 14, 2018, 08:11:52 PM »
well... re: racks, i would consider getting a single rack that can hold two components side-by-side, instead of two separate racks.  it might leave room for two subs like the L12's to still fit in between the rack and the speakers.  (i'd recommend that style of rack anyway, even if subs were not part of the equation, simply to lower the equipment - less interference w/the monitors' soundstaging.)

if two subs still will not fit, then you can make custom stands that will straddle them, and the subs can reside directly below the speakers.  or, get short stands, and w/vibration control, place them directly atop the subs...

oh, and regarding the couch, i suspect that whatever negative effects it has, it's acting on the monitors, and won't be much of an issue w/subs.

doug s.

Re the rack, mine is new and I should have thought of that option before purchasing. Two sub or not two sub, that is the question......
Thanks for your thoughts on the couch. It has nowhere else to go in the living room
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2018, 07:13:53 AM »
Are the LS50s on stands?
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