AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: Nick B on April 09, 2018, 09:59:10 PM

Title: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 09, 2018, 09:59:10 PM
I realize some of this has been covered before, but I sure am considering a change from the Auralic Mini. Here’s a summary of my current setup:

Auralic Aries Mini with dedicated power supply
Antelope Gold dac
Tidal
Roon

I have been running this setup and it often gives me problems. Tidal streaming is sluggish and I realize not much can be done about that. The Auralic Mini is wireless and sometimes disconnects. I have it on the 2.4 band, but I’ll double check those settings. When the Mini disconnects, I have to go through a whole series of tedious steps to have it connect again. It is a royal pita. I use and like Roon, but Roon is a bit of a pita as well. Roon has to run a “core”....it’s guts, so to speak...and I chose the mac desktop for that. Then I can control Roon...or Auralic’s DS Lightning software as well, from multiple devices like my iPad or my wife’s iPad or iPhone. As Roon has the capability to run various zones, my zone disconnects sometimes and that causes problems as well. I only run one zone and will never run different zones. I am also considering a different router, but that’s another discussion.

My budget is $1,200 or so. I’d like to focus just on other streamers and only two come to mind in that price range: the Sonos and the Bluesound. I want something simple and reliable. If it disconnects, I don’t want to go through the very tedious setup that Auralic requires. I will not need a streamer with a dac as the Antelope is quite good.

If you have these products or know of others within my price range, pls le5 me know.
Nick
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 10, 2018, 03:59:41 AM
I use the Lumin, works flawlessly.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: richidoo on April 10, 2018, 05:57:41 AM
Sounds like your LAN is the biggest problem. Fix that first then see if you need anything more.

I recently installed an eero (https://eero.com/) wireless system and it has been a big improvement over the ATT all in one router. eero cured a lot of different problems. I connect it with cable to my ATT router and shut off everything else in the router, so it's really just a WAN gateway now. eero does everything else, DHCP, and wireless.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Emil on April 10, 2018, 06:44:18 AM
Try these if WiFi is an an issue. Can always return them

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6706.msg84837#msg84837
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 10, 2018, 09:50:17 AM
I use the Lumin, works flawlessly.

Jim,
A $1,200 Lumin? Haven’t found one
Nick
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: tmazz on April 10, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
I have to agree with Rich, if you are losing connections to both the streamer and the roon control devices it w the problem with still be there even if you get a new streamer would seem to point to a WiFi problem. And if this is the case the problem will remain even if you get another streamer.

It might be a coverage problem, but it could also be an interference issue. one of the first things I would try is simply changing the Wifi to a different channel. Perhaps there is a neighbor operating on the same channel with a high power router that is stepping all over your signals. This is a quick and easy thing to try and best of all it does not involve any cash outlay.

As for streaming I have been using the Bluesound Node for about two years now and it has given me very little trouble at all. The reason I mentioned getting dropouts last weekend was not because it is a persistent problem, but rather because it was so out of the ordinary. At first the control software was a little clumsy, but I have to say it has gotten much better over time.

The only problem I have had on a regular basis is that every once in a while I get a 1 or 2 second burst of static. This only happens when playing either native of MQA unfolded 24/96 files.  And I think the problem is not with the Node, but rather with my DAC. I have one of the original EE DACs and it has an early TOSLINK receiver that is bandwidth limited to a max of 24/96. Although the DAC itself will do 192, the optical input will not go that high (the next version the DAC Plus had a better receiver that solved this problem.) So I have a feeling that there is a sync issue with 24/96 files. But it only happens occasionally and is quickly over, so for now I am just living with it. The current production Bluesound streamer the Node 2 had coaxial as well as optical digital outs, which I think would solve the problem, but it is just not annoying enough to get me to shell out $500 to fix it.

And FYI, the with the last software update, Bluesound units will now stream Amazon Prime Music, which may or may not interest you. I am hoping that sometime soon they will include the software to stream Sirius/XM.

Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 10, 2018, 11:49:14 AM
I have to agree with Rich, if you are losing connections to both the streamer and the roon control devices it w the problem with still be there even if you get a new streamer would seem to point to a WiFi problem. And if this is the case the problem will remain even if you get another streamer.

It might be a coverage problem, but it could also be an interference issue. one of the first things I would try is simply changing the Wifi to a different channel. Perhaps there is a neighbor operating on the same channel with a high power router that is stepping all over your signals. This is a quick and easy thing to try and best of all it does not involve any cash outlay.

As for streaming I have been using the Bluesound Node for about two years now and it has given me very little trouble at all. The reason I mentioned getting dropouts last weekend was not because it is a persistent problem, but rather because it was so out of the ordinary. At first the control software was a little clumsy, but I have to say it has gotten much better over time.

The only problem I have had on a regular basis is that every once in a while I get a 1 or 2 second burst of static. This only happens when playing either native of MQA unfolded 24/96 files.  And I think the problem is not with the Node, but rather with my DAC. I have one of the original EE DACs and it has an early TOSLINK receiver that is bandwidth limited to a max of 24/96. Although the DAC itself will do 192, the optical input will not go that high (the next version the DAC Plus had a better receiver that solved this problem.) So I have a feeling that there is a sync issue with 24/96 files. But it only happens occasionally and is quickly over, so for now I am just living with it. The current production Bluesound streamer the Node 2 had coaxial as well as optical digital outs, which I think would solve the problem, but it is just not annoying enough to get me to shell out $500 to fix it.

And FYI, the with the last software update, Bluesound units will now stream Amazon Prime Music, which may or may not interest you. I am hoping that sometime soon they will include the software to stream Sirius/XM.

I know the wifi is a problem and pretty much, it always has been. Thats why I’ll either use an extender like Emil did or get an Eero. As to changing channels, that is not easy to understand for me. I tried  assigning a static channel one time on the ASUS with their tech support and it was so complicated that I gave up. I really need plug and play options...ease of use....if that’s even possible with routers. The last thing I want to do is spend many , many hours trying to understand the intricacies of routers.
As to the Bluesound, a Vault 2 is intriguing. I assume it has an internal smps, but presume you are very satisfied with the sound. Everything will get plugged into the Uber anyway.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mdconnelly on April 10, 2018, 01:31:32 PM
In my ever most humble opinion, streaming via wifi will eventually lead to frustration and I agree with others that it's unlikely that a different streamer will fix that unless you're willing to simply stream lower-bandwidth music.    I also suspect that as IOT becomes far more ubiquitous, it will only get worse.  (e.g. why would anyone need their frig on wifi or washing machine on wifi, and yet, there it is).    Far too often, I'd tweak something and think I'd finally got it working well and the next day the music would start stuttering or drop out again.

About 6 years ago I gave up trying different routers, bandwidths, etc.. and added structured wiring in my house where I wanted ethernet most.  (up to that point, running the ethernet cable down the stairs and across the hallway had an inverse correlation on marital bliss).   It wasn't a cheap investment but all streaming problems went away along with the many headaches associated with keeping wifi working for all other applications. 

Nick, if running ethernet is simply not feasible, then I'd give one of the mesh network solutions a try such as the eero that Rich pointed out.   I've heard good things about Google's as well (but have no experience with either).  There's quite a few on the market.   Google "mesh wifi".
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: richidoo on April 10, 2018, 02:28:38 PM
I like the eero wireless for civilian duties, but my sotm player is still hardwired to a switch off the eero's 2nd port.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: tmazz on April 10, 2018, 02:59:23 PM
I too have been thinking about adding some powerline extenders like the Emil used for my streamer and the TV, not so much because my audio and video streaming performance is problematic, but rather to take some of the more bandwidth intensive applications off of my WiFi network to increase the performance of the other portable devices in the house like our laptops and tablets.

What is holding me back at this point is a concern about what effect the ethernet data riding on the powerline might have on my audio performance. We all go to great lengths  to make the AC power into our systems as clean as possible so it seems kind of counter intuitive to purposely put some kind of foreign signal on the power lines. How different is that from he noise generated by the frig? Even though it is a useful signal, then looked at from the point of view of an audio device using the power, it is something on the line other than 60 cycle AC, therefore it is noise.

So I will throw this question out to our power purity guru, Dave, have you in the development of any of your devices had occasion to look at  the effects of powerline ethernet on audio performance? Is it rectified out or is the frequency of the data signal high enough that it does not really make it through the power supply? And if is does cause a problem does one of your buss devices filter it out and make it a non issue?

Any insights would be appreciated.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 10, 2018, 05:21:42 PM
I use the Lumin, works flawlessly.

Jim,
A $1,200 Lumin? Haven’t found one
Nick

think used market my friend. I bought a demo from a dealer $1400 cash like new with power supply. I later upgraded to my own linear power supply

Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Emil on April 11, 2018, 04:39:55 AM
I'm new to streaming and a bit confused.

What does the $1200 Lumin have over the $500 Node if all you want to do is stream?
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: djdube525 on April 11, 2018, 04:45:30 AM

I know the wifi is a problem and pretty much, it always has been. Thats why I’ll either use an extender like Emil did or get an Eero. As to changing channels, that is not easy to understand for me. I tried  assigning a static channel one time on the ASUS with their tech support and it was so complicated that I gave up. I really need plug and play options...ease of use....if that’s even possible with routers. The last thing I want to do is spend many , many hours trying to understand the intricacies of routers.
As to the Bluesound, a Vault 2 is intriguing. I assume it has an internal smps, but presume you are very satisfied with the sound. Everything will get plugged into the Uber anyway.

What model ASUS router do you have? I can "walk you through" the process of creating a static IP via PM if you like. With that said, that won't help your connectivity issues, but will help you with eliminating the frustration of resetting up your Bluesound each time it gets booted and reconnects. BTW... I'm assuming your collection is on your PC (I forget)? Do you reboot that at all? Is your computer a MAC or Windows machine?

Another vote for the Powerline adapter - read Emil's thread. Netgear, Zyxel (what I use) are pretty solid.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 11, 2018, 05:53:36 PM
In my ever most humble opinion, streaming via wifi will eventually lead to frustration and I agree with others that it's unlikely that a different streamer will fix that unless you're willing to simply stream lower-bandwidth music.    I also suspect that as IOT becomes far more ubiquitous, it will only get worse.  (e.g. why would anyone need their frig on wifi or washing machine on wifi, and yet, there it is).    Far too often, I'd tweak something and think I'd finally got it working well and the next day the music would start stuttering or drop out again.

About 6 years ago I gave up trying different routers, bandwidths, etc.. and added structured wiring in my house where I wanted ethernet most.  (up to that point, running the ethernet cable down the stairs and across the hallway had an inverse correlation on marital bliss).   It wasn't a cheap investment but all streaming problems went away along with the many headaches associated with keeping wifi working for all other applications. 

Nick, if running ethernet is simply not feasible, then I'd give one of the mesh network solutions a try such as the eero that Rich pointed out.   I've heard good things about Google's as well (but have no experience with either).  There's quite a few on the market.   Google "mesh wifi".

Tom, yes frustration is quite part of my streaming experience 🤬🤬 We recently removed a huge cabinet from the living room and there’s a cable connection outlet behind it. Who knew??  Haven’t tried if it’s live or not. I had quite a few put in when we built our home some 15 years ago, but the cable company guy disconnected some as he said the signal is being split too many times. So I’m trying to figure out if i want to move the router, get the range extenders that Emil bought or go for something really appealing like the Eero that Rich uses. As we have at least three guys here who use the AC wireless gizmos with no apparent addition of line noise, I’m inclined to bite the bullet and buy the $399 Eero. Some things are worth spending money on like the Nest E thermostat I recently bought.
Nick
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 11, 2018, 05:55:22 PM
I use the Lumin, works flawlessly.

Jim,
A $1,200 Lumin? Haven’t found one
Nick

think used market my friend. I bought a demo from a dealer $1400 cash like new with power supply. I later upgraded to my own linear power supply

Good point, Jim. I’d still be maxxed out at $1,200
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 11, 2018, 06:20:49 PM

I know the wifi is a problem and pretty much, it always has been. Thats why I’ll either use an extender like Emil did or get an Eero. As to changing channels, that is not easy to understand for me. I tried  assigning a static channel one time on the ASUS with their tech support and it was so complicated that I gave up. I really need plug and play options...ease of use....if that’s even possible with routers. The last thing I want to do is spend many , many hours trying to understand the intricacies of routers.
As to the Bluesound, a Vault 2 is intriguing. I assume it has an internal smps, but presume you are very satisfied with the sound. Everything will get plugged into the Uber anyway.

What model ASUS router do you have? I can "walk you through" the process of creating a static IP via PM if you like. With that said, that won't help your connectivity issues, but will help you with eliminating the frustration of resetting up your Bluesound each time it gets booted and reconnects. BTW... I'm assuming your collection is on your PC (I forget)? Do you reboot that at all? Is your computer a MAC or Windows machine?

Another vote for the Powerline adapter - read Emil's thread. Netgear, Zyxel (what I use) are pretty solid.

I may take you up on your offer once I sort things out. I’m pretty sure it’s  the RT87U. I researched routers quite a bit, but performance wise, it’s not much better than my old Linksys. I have a Mac desktop in the far bedroom and that Mac runs Roon’s core. So when that disconnects, it causes me grief. It seems the Auralic app disconnects as well. When that happens, I close Roon on the Mac and reopen the app. Very simple. But rebooting the Auralic is a gigantic pain. I realize that it may be a combination of Tidal streaming and my internet issues and my router.
Late last night, I switched from the 5.0 to the 2.4 band. I’ll see if that helps ar all. When I listen to music, I close the door where my wife is watching tv so she’s not disturbed. That room also has the router, so I’m not sure if that influences reception at all.
I keep my music on an external drive and the Auralic has an internal drive, but the instructions indicate once I transfer from the external to the internal drive, it will wipe the external drive. Why, I have no idea. I haven’t messed with it.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: RichardS on April 11, 2018, 08:42:52 PM
I’ll share my experience with using a powerline adapter for streaming, in case it may be of any help…
I have a Modwright Sony streamer, which I’m quite happy with for my own music collection, but it doesn’t stream Tidal, which I really wanted (and now feel like I couldn’t live without). So I bought an Auralic Aries, but before using it I read lots of forum posts of folks complaining about their streaming software. So I bought an Elac Discovery streamer for $1K (and sold the Auralic) and I’m extremely happy with it. It has coax and Toslink digital outs (I use coax into a LKS 004 DAC or Exogal Comet), in addition to analog outs, and comes with a lifetime Roon Essentials subscription that stays with the unit—it can be used as a Roon endpoint as well, but I simply use the included Roon (limited to 30,000 tracks).
It requires a hardwired Ethernet connection, and my listening room is in a studio guest house separated from the main house, so I use a Netgear powerline adapter (from Netgear AC1750 router). Set up is simple and I’ve had no connection problems, and almost never get dropouts or have to reboot (I can’t remember the last time I did). The Elac is limited to 24/96. With Roon, my library on my external HD and Tidal library are synced perfectly. I use an iPad as the remote, that syncs with my router over wifi.
I was concerned about RFI/EMI riding on the powerline into the DAC, but the sound was very good. I found that changing to a Harmonic Tech Photon digital cable improved the sound slightly over the Analysis Plus cable I was using, but can’t say whether that’s from eliminating RFI, etc. or just that it’s a better cable. I had also considered using a glass Toslink into a WFS Remedy reclocker, but think all is well as-is. The combination of the powerline adapter and Elac streamer is one of the best things I’ve ever done to enhance my listening pleasure… good luck figuring out your situation …
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Emil on April 12, 2018, 06:52:17 AM
If you do go the hardwire route, throw away the generic ethernet cables you have around the house.

Supra makes a nice cable. TWL will be coming out with their own. I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178680)
 
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: rollo on April 12, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
If you do go the hardwire route, throw away the generic ethernet cables you have around the house.

Supra makes a nice cable. TWL will be coming out with their own. I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178680)

   We use either the TWL or Supra for demonstrating the Aqua La Diva transport and Formula DAC. Aqua uses an I2s [ Ethernet] to connect transport to DAC. Two different characters. TWL is a tad brighter than Supra. Not bright in sound overall just more than Supra. Both are VG choosing one over other is system dependent
We have NOT used Ethernet from router or any other connection. Well so far.

charles
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 12, 2018, 09:24:31 AM
I’ll share my experience with using a powerline adapter for streaming, in case it may be of any help…
I have a Modwright Sony streamer, which I’m quite happy with for my own music collection, but it doesn’t stream Tidal, which I really wanted (and now feel like I couldn’t live without). So I bought an Auralic Aries, but before using it I read lots of forum posts of folks complaining about their streaming software. So I bought an Elac Discovery streamer for $1K (and sold the Auralic) and I’m extremely happy with it. It has coax and Toslink digital outs (I use coax into a LKS 004 DAC or Exogal Comet), in addition to analog outs, and comes with a lifetime Roon Essentials subscription that stays with the unit—it can be used as a Roon endpoint as well, but I simply use the included Roon (limited to 30,000 tracks).
It requires a hardwired Ethernet connection, and my listening room is in a studio guest house separated from the main house, so I use a Netgear powerline adapter (from Netgear AC1750 router). Set up is simple and I’ve had no connection problems, and almost never get dropouts or have to reboot (I can’t remember the last time I did). The Elac is limited to 24/96. With Roon, my library on my external HD and Tidal library are synced perfectly. I use an iPad as the remote, that syncs with my router over wifi.
I was concerned about RFI/EMI riding on the powerline into the DAC, but the sound was very good. I found that changing to a Harmonic Tech Photon digital cable improved the sound slightly over the Analysis Plus cable I was using, but can’t say whether that’s from eliminating RFI, etc. or just that it’s a better cable. I had also considered using a glass Toslink into a WFS Remedy reclocker, but think all is well as-is. The combination of the powerline adapter and Elac streamer is one of the best things I’ve ever done to enhance my listening pleasure… good luck figuring out your situation …

I did a lot more listening last night using the Roon software. First, I just played songs from my CD library. No dropouts whatsoever, so my router was doing fine. Then I concentrated on just streaming Tidal via Roon and that’s where I had lots of trouble. The music would stop. I would get the same error message from Tidal saying there’s a problem streaming and I would lose connectivity with the “zone” I was playing. The zone would vanish from my screen. The only solution then is for me is to get up from the living room, go into my office, close out the Roon app on my Mac and reopen the Roon app. Once that is done, the correct zone reappears and I can stream Tidal again. I did that at least 10 times last night and finally got tired of the routine. So at least last night, there was stability in that I had the same, one issue. I did check the Roon help section regarding this problem and will look again tonight. This evening, for a while, I will only use the Tidal app (which I never do) and check if I get any interruptions while streaming.

I still will be upgrading or changing my router and maybe changing my streamer. The Auralic software is definitely a pain to deal with sometimes, so maybe an Elac or Bluesound is the way to go.

Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 12, 2018, 09:35:29 AM
Regarding the use of better quality ethernet cables, I agree. Have yet to experiment with any one them. Have no idea regarding pricing as to the brands you mentioned. but doubt Id want to spend more than $100
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: richidoo on April 12, 2018, 09:40:35 AM
This will let you test your internet connection over longer period of time than speedtest.net
https://testmy.net/
http://backup1.startrinity.com/InternetQuality/ContinuousBandwidthTester.aspx

Test your WAN with your router running on an old boot then reboot it fresh and test again.

Are you still using the ISP's cable modem? Or does your Asus router include the cable modem?
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Emil on April 12, 2018, 10:54:02 AM
Regarding the use of better quality ethernet cables, I agree. Have yet to experiment with any one them. Have no idea regarding pricing as to the brands you mentioned. but doubt Id want to spend more than $100

Then try the Supra. I have them and they do make a difference for the better.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supra-CAT-8-STP-patch-cable-2-meter-Made-In-Sweden-THE-BEST-FOR-NETWORK-AUDIO/152969530366?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3Dcb09d9a231f64d93943f5cbb054fbc58%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D401257509195%26itm%3D152969530366&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 12, 2018, 03:19:09 PM
I'm new to streaming and a bit confused.

What does the $1200 Lumin have over the $500 Node if all you want to do is stream?

It's a streamer, it's a dac, it handles Mqa, you can bypass the dac if you need to. It comes with a free app. It is roon and tidal ready. It is the Swiss army knife of streamers
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 12, 2018, 05:18:24 PM
If you do go the hardwire route, throw away the generic ethernet cables you have around the house.

Supra makes a nice cable. TWL will be coming out with their own. I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178680)

I bought some cat 7 cable on Amazon. Seems fine.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: djdube525 on April 13, 2018, 03:26:00 AM
Are you still using the ISP's cable modem? Or does your Asus router include the cable modem?

I believe Nick said he's the Asus 87u (https://www.asus.com/us/Networking/RTAC87U/) which does not include a cable modem (AFAIK, none of the Asus routers include a built in cable modem).

I hesitate to mention this, but there is a very good 3rd party firmware for Asus Routers (https://asuswrt.lostrealm.ca/) that is built on-top of the core router software (it looks and feels the same as the Asus based SW... just extra features). The developer works with Asus directly, and is often fixing bugs, and adding new features, which often times, eventually gets rolled back into the mainline SW.

I know Nick has mentioned hesitation to "muck around" with the router settings, but there is a fair amount of QoS controls built in that would give priority to the traffic in question.

It would be interesting if Nick could "borrow" a long ethernet cable, and go the wired route just to test if the issue remains. It would be nice rule out wireless vs. wired discussion. 
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Emil on April 13, 2018, 06:08:59 AM
If you do go the hardwire route, throw away the generic ethernet cables you have around the house.

Supra makes a nice cable. TWL will be coming out with their own. I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178680)

I bought some cat 7 cable on Amazon. Seems fine.

and you call yourself an audiophile? :)

Supra is inexpensive enough to give it a try

https://audiobacon.net/2017/05/31/supra-cat8-ethernet-cable-review-an-amazing-spotify-and-tidal-experience/
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mdconnelly on April 13, 2018, 07:50:45 AM
My personal experience with ethernet cables is that I have a difficult time consistently hearing much of a difference much less which is better (caveat: my ears are over 65 years old and I'm sure I've lost some hearing at the upper end ;-)

But to put it in context, I can readily hear differences and improvements between power cords, speaker cables and analog interconnects.   I have a more difficult time with digital ICs and USB cables.   But ethernet cables are something else.   I have compared good cables (e.g. Supra & TWL), with Amazon el cheapos and with Blue Jeans.   Is there a build difference?  Absolutely.  But sonically, I'd never consistently pick them out of a blind lineup.   Now, I don't doubt that those with better ears do discern differences.  So while the audiophile in me has always wanted the very best I can afford, and the cost of cables such as Supra & TWL is far from unreasonable, I personally see (hear) it as a very low-priority consideration.  (and besides, trying to hear differences in cables drives me a bit nuts anyway).   I will say that I really like bluejeancable.com because they test every cable and publish the result - they've always worked well for me. 

So for me, I just don't sweat ethernet cables.  Far, far too many other things that can influence sound quality to a much greater degree (at least to these old ears). 
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 13, 2018, 10:28:06 AM
This will let you test your internet connection over longer period of time than speedtest.net
https://testmy.net/
http://backup1.startrinity.com/InternetQuality/ContinuousBandwidthTester.aspx

Test your WAN with your router running on an old boot then reboot it fresh and test again.

Are you still using the ISP's cable modem? Or does your Asus router include the cable modem?

Rich, thanks for the links. I’ll give it a go. The Asus does not contain a modem. I need to find he “window of opportunity “ to do a reboot.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 13, 2018, 11:57:35 AM
Are you still using the ISP's cable modem? Or does your Asus router include the cable modem?

I believe Nick said he's the Asus 87u (https://www.asus.com/us/Networking/RTAC87U/) which does not include a cable modem (AFAIK, none of the Asus routers include a built in cable modem).

I hesitate to mention this, but there is a very good 3rd party firmware for Asus Routers (https://asuswrt.lostrealm.ca/) that is built on-top of the core router software (it looks and feels the same as the Asus based SW... just extra features). The developer works with Asus directly, and is often fixing bugs, and adding new features, which often times, eventually gets rolled back into the mainline SW.

I know Nick has mentioned hesitation to "muck around" with the router settings, but there is a fair amount of QoS controls built in that would give priority to the traffic in question.

It would be interesting if Nick could "borrow" a long ethernet cable, and go the wired route just to test if the issue remains. It would be nice rule out wireless vs. wired discussion.

Correct, no modem. I think I have that installed over? the Asus software. Not sure right now as I’m not in the house. Also, how would it be of benefit if I used his software? You’re right about the mucking part. I can only handle so much of this technical stuff
at one time before my brain crashes. Then I need to reboot as well  :roll:
Last night I only used the Tidal app itself and it went pretty much error free. I had to tap multipe times on some obscure songs a few times, but it was not close to the level of the Roon crashes. I don’t have a long enough ethernet to try your experiment. I am seriously considering the Eero based on the good feedback so far.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 13, 2018, 12:07:44 PM
My personal experience with ethernet cables is that I have a difficult time consistently hearing much of a difference much less which is better (caveat: my ears are over 65 years old and I'm sure I've lost some hearing at the upper end ;-)

But to put it in context, I can readily hear differences and improvements between power cords, speaker cables and analog interconnects.   I have a more difficult time with digital ICs and USB cables.   But ethernet cables are something else.   I have compared good cables (e.g. Supra & TWL), with Amazon el cheapos and with Blue Jeans.   Is there a build difference?  Absolutely.  But sonically, I'd never consistently pick them out of a blind lineup.   Now, I don't doubt that those with better ears do discern differences.  So while the audiophile in me has always wanted the very best I can afford, and the cost of cables such as Supra & TWL is far from unreasonable, I personally see (hear) it as a very low-priority consideration.  (and besides, trying to hear differences in cables drives me a bit nuts anyway).   I will say that I really like bluejeancable.com because they test every cable and publish the result - they've always worked well for me. 

So for me, I just don't sweat ethernet cables.  Far, far too many other things that can influence sound quality to a much greater degree (at least to these old ears).

I’m with you regarding trying to hear micro differences sometimes in cables. It’s often more trouble than it’s worth and indeed can drive me nuts as well. If I have something that performs very well, imho there isn’t much point in auditioning different cables because the change virtually always means I’ll have to spend more money and take a loss on the stuff I sell.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: richidoo on April 13, 2018, 02:30:35 PM
Make sure all your Roon apps are the same and the latest version. They misbehave when not the same version.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 13, 2018, 09:19:07 PM
Make sure all your Roon apps are the same and the latest version. They misbehave when not the same version.

Double checked all. Version 1.4 and build 310
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 15, 2018, 10:10:25 AM
A brief update... I played Roon last night and it was virtually problem free. I had a hiccup or two, but surprisingly Roon did not disconnect and I didn’t have to reboot Roon. I had seen a number of prompts from Apple to update the OS on my Mac desktop and I finally did. Have no idea if that helped the situation.
I still am thinking about the Eero and another streamer like the all in one Bluesound Vault 2, but maybe my dollars would be better spent on a sub for the LS 50s or even upgrading the 50s xovers....or trying a full-range speaker
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: dBe on April 15, 2018, 09:27:43 PM
A brief update... I played Roon last night and it was virtually problem free. I had a hiccup or two, but surprisingly Roon did not disconnect and I didn’t have to reboot Roon. I had seen a number of prompts from Apple to update the OS on my Mac desktop and I finally did. Have no idea if that helped the situation.
I still am thinking about the Eero and another streamer like the all in one Bluesound Vault 2, but maybe my dollars would be better spent on a sub for the LS 50s or even upgrading the 50s xovers....or trying a full-range speaker
I have no problems with streaming because I don't other than yo hy office computer.  I'm all about no generations between data and playback.  In my world of everything effecting everything, data conversions just suck.

I do have to say that Comcast / Xfinity is absolutely the worst data providers I have ever had and they still owe me money.  Bastards submitted me for collection after I returned all of their gear 2 weeks into the 30 day, Money Back Guarantee because their "service" never worked.  I actually honor my Money Back Guarantee.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: rollo on April 16, 2018, 07:12:51 AM
  Put that little shiny disc in or load your server and leave the stream for fishing. Background music. Color me "Disc Snob"  :lol:

charles
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 16, 2018, 10:17:36 AM
  Put that little shiny disc in or load your server and leave the stream for fishing. Background music. Color me "Disc Snob"  :lol:

charles


Well, loading a disc is sure easier than dealing with the streaming problems sometimes. But I’m trying to downsize and get rid of “stuff” like all the CDs that I have to find room for
Nick
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 16, 2018, 02:19:30 PM
I must be very lucky, within 15 minutes I was up and running and never had an issue, problem free!!
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mfsoa on April 16, 2018, 05:48:26 PM
What do you need done that a Raspberry Pi with a quality HAT (Hardware Attached on Top) can't do?
You'll have a lot of $$ left over!!
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 17, 2018, 12:22:13 AM
I must be very lucky, within 15 minutes I was up and running and never had an issue, problem free!!

This setup is a piece of cake compared to the Squeezebox crap I was running years ago. Back then, they had phone support, so at least I could get it to run
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 17, 2018, 12:50:17 AM
What do you need done that a Raspberry Pi with a quality HAT (Hardware Attached on Top) can't do?
You'll have a lot of $$ left over!!

Hmmm...Mike.....let me take a stab at this. The Raspberry Pi thingy is basically a teeny computer running Linux and I would need to attach it to a monitor and install the Linux based Rasperry Pi OS.  So I have this little gizmo and then I’d attach a teeny dac to it? IF that is correct, what would I gain by doing that other than making some money by selling my good sounding Antelope Gold dac? Or would I be able to sell my Auralic Mini streamer as well? Is there an app that allows me to use it or am I also tethered to a monitor? That’s the extent of what I know about this stuff
Nick
PS   by definition, computer = aggravation
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: jimbones on April 17, 2018, 06:26:14 AM

PS   by definition, computer = aggravation
[/quote]

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mfsoa on April 17, 2018, 08:22:21 AM
I was thinking that since you have a dac, the Pi would be configured with a high-quality SPDIF or USB output. I haven't run one with Roon but I think the Pis run Roon Bridge no problem. You already control with Roon so no need for a screen.

They are just so flexible and fun and easy and perform so well for the price. I am just amazed at what you can accomplish with a little effort.

Good luck - there are so many ways to do this stuff
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 17, 2018, 09:50:10 AM
I was thinking that since you have a dac, the Pi would be configured with a high-quality SPDIF or USB output. I haven't run one with Roon but I think the Pis run Roon Bridge no problem. You already control with Roon so no need for a screen.

They are just so flexible and fun and easy and perform so well for the price. I am just amazed at what you can accomplish with a little effort.

Good luck - there are so many ways to do this stuff

Well, it’s an interesting idea. As you may know, Roon’s core needs to operate on a computer, so I imagine that it could on the Pi and the Pi could sit right on my audio rack rather than the Mac desktop being in the other room. There is the issue of when the Roon core crashes, I would need to have a monitor and mouse to reboot the core. The Roon core cannot be on the iPad and also cannot be controlled or rebooted from the iPad. At least, that’s the way I understand it.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mfsoa on April 17, 2018, 01:06:52 PM
I think you would still have to run Core on a main computer, and Bridge on the Pi.

The Pi can also be used as an HQPlayer NAA device if you want to go that way.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: shadowlight on April 17, 2018, 01:31:03 PM
I think you would still have to run Core on a main computer, and Bridge on the Pi.

The Pi can also be used as an HQPlayer NAA device if you want to go that way.

Mike,
I was thinking the same thing about leveraging Pi as the end point and I realized that is not going to address Nick's issue about Tidal drop out's along with the issues with Roon Core that he is/might be having.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mfsoa on April 17, 2018, 04:48:18 PM
True, Deepak, as always.

I'm guilty of knee-jerking to think of a Pi as a solution for distributing audio around the house. Only then do I ask what it is that it can't do that I would need another box for, and is that feature worth the extra $$. Never tried a Pi dac HAT but I hear there are some very good ones out there.

Sorry to derail...
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 17, 2018, 05:00:38 PM
Mike and Deepak,
I appreciate your input on this. It’s always nice to get comments as to why something may or not work for certain applications.
Nick
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: shadowlight on April 17, 2018, 05:01:07 PM
If Nick wants to try out the Pi I have the complete Allo setup with reclocker and Piano PCM5122 based DAC.  I can set it up with DietPi code and Roon end point.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 17, 2018, 10:13:01 PM
If Nick wants to try out the Pi I have the complete Allo setup with reclocker and Piano PCM5122 based DAC.  I can set it up with DietPi code and Roon end point.


Sure, I’d be curious. But you realize I might need help with it.....
PM sent
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: shadowlight on April 18, 2018, 08:01:47 AM
If Nick wants to try out the Pi I have the complete Allo setup with reclocker and Piano PCM5122 based DAC.  I can set it up with DietPi code and Roon end point.


Sure, I’d be curious. But you realize I might need help with it.....
PM sent

Sure, I can help you remotely.  I will set it up on Friday and try to ship it out to you on Saturday.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 18, 2018, 09:41:50 AM
If Nick wants to try out the Pi I have the complete Allo setup with reclocker and Piano PCM5122 based DAC.  I can set it up with DietPi code and Roon end point.


Sure, I’d be curious. But you realize I might need help with it.....
PM sent

Sure, I can help you remotely.  I will set it up on Friday and try to ship it out to you on Saturday.

This will be interesting. Hope it will be fairly easy to set up
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: mdconnelly on April 19, 2018, 09:02:15 AM
Nick,  if you'll be using it with Roon, it really is pretty simple to use.   I've got an Allo USBridge (Sparky instead of rPi and the USBridge hat).   I use it as a Roon Bridge to a separate DAC and, well, it just works.   It runs DietPi and I have updated that twice now but probably didn't need to.  SQ is excellent.

It really is amazing what can be had now at this price point.    Will you be able to use wired ethernet?   Not sure if what shadowlight is sending you has a wifi component.
Title: Re: need suggestions on streamers
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 09:17:08 AM
Nick,  if you'll be using it with Roon, it really is pretty simple to use.   I've got an Allo USBridge (Sparky instead of rPi and the USBridge hat).   I use it as a Roon Bridge to a separate DAC and, well, it just works.   It runs DietPi and I have updated that twice now but probably didn't need to.  SQ is excellent.

It really is amazing what can be had now at this price point.    Will you be able to use wired ethernet?   Not sure if what shadowlight is sending you has a wifi component.

Mike, the router is in the other room and it’s been “suggested” to me not to move it and it’s probably best anyway to leave it where it is. I also don’t have either Eero or those AC wireless extender things yet. I’m not sure what shadowlight has up his sleeve for me, but I’ll find out real soon. I guess this will use digital volume control and all I’ve been using is the analog volume through my dac. Lots to become familiar with.
As to the SQ, I can’t imagine it being comparable to that nice Antelope Gold dac. But the technology and components change so fast, I’d enjoy being pleasantly surprised.