AudioNervosa

Specialists => Audiologists => Topic started by: Nick B on February 28, 2018, 12:09:53 PM

Title: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on February 28, 2018, 12:09:53 PM
Some of you have been aware I’ve been looking for new/used speakers for over three months. As I’ve done a lot of reading regarding speakers, I’ve come across this term a number of times. I’d appreciate an explanation of what that term means. Thanks,
Nick
PS as it fits in with this post, i wanted to mention that I have abandoned my pursuit of full range single driver speakers
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: _Scotty_ on February 28, 2018, 01:59:26 PM
In my experience, most of the time room pressurization occurs when one has standing waves in a room. These are areas of high sound pressure levels in the bass frequencies. There are also corresponding areas of low pressure as well.
 When you are in or near a standing wave zone you can frequently feel the sound waves across your entire body which is a function of the bass wave length being reproduced. 32Hz is the threshold of both feeling and hearing the bass frequencies. As the bass frequencies go lower than 32Hz we predominately feel the bass rather than sense a discrete pitch as we can at higher frequencies. 
 Dipole sub-woofers  generally don't pressurize a room the way box type sub-woofer does. They also get less of the benefits of room reinforcement in the bass frequencies when compared to box type subs. More power is also generally required and servo control is mandatory in order for this design to function properly.
 When I attended symphonic concerts there was no room pressurization, there was the sensation of impact on my body and to my chest cavity from the tympani drums and the big bass drum. On the other hand I have experienced room pressurization or the sensation of bass being felt on my entire body from pipe organ performances. You will notice that I have avoided characterizing the bass behavior of amplified music which can being wildly variable. Even live jazz performances may be hard to characterize if amplification is present.
 It may come down to equalization and how far the knob was turned during any given performance.
Scotty
 Disclaimer, I have a bass problem, and I have no intention of enrolling in a 12 step program.
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: rollo on March 01, 2018, 12:21:03 PM
   Scotty covered it all. Just add volume to the mix. The more volume the more pressure. Nick please consider the location of where speaker to be chosen must be positioned in your room.
   Without proper placement no speaker will perform at its best period. Will they be close to front wall ? Side walls ? Is there a TV in the middle ? Rack in between ? Those items will affect your choice big time.
   Look at Fritz Carrera. On a budget ELAC. Stand mounted designs go a long way with obstacles as mentioned.


charles
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 01, 2018, 09:48:11 PM
Although I enjoy a room with excellent bass response, it’s not possible in my situation and I’m not a bass hound anyway. I very much enjoyed what the SP Tech gave me .... extension into the 30s. As to
speaker placement, max 2’ from left sidewall and max 3’ from front wall. Previous setup was 6-7’ apart and listening 11’ ft back. That’s the desired/mandatory setup. It needs to work...few other options.

Have looked at Fritz, GR Research and currently looking at

http://audience-av.com/loudspeakers/1plus1/ with help from                                                      https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/zero/

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/micro-series/microone/

As I’m downsizing and simplifying, nothing heavy or taking up lots of space. Easy to pack and easy to ship......someday.  Budget fluctuates
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Bill O'Connell on March 02, 2018, 08:42:48 PM
How about the Dynaudio Special Forty ?
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 02, 2018, 09:54:39 PM
How about the Dynaudio Special Forty ?

Bill,
Thanks for the info. I’ll do some reading on it and check YouTube tonight.
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: gander on March 05, 2018, 12:37:45 PM
I have been working with Nick a lot on full range drivers and I bought a pair of Planet10 Hi-Fi modified Mark Audio A10PeN drivers A few months back, after not being quite pleased enough with tang band full range drivers. I built my own set of cabinets that are about 5 ft.³ and are tuned to about 25 Hz. With the 6 1/2 inch Mark Audio drivers there was still not enough sound.
So I put in a pair of Audio Nirvana super 12 ferrite drivers, 12 inch full range drivers I bought years ago and had sitting in boxes.  In my cabinets the speakers have maybe 98 DB to 100 DB sensitivity.  I’m not sure exactly, but the volume setting on my passive preamp has dropped about 15 points for the same amount of volume output with the audio Nirvana drivers.
Now there is plenty of meat on the bone, even more detail, lots of excellent tight bass, and the rest of the good stuff we all look for; and I still am using full range drivers with no crossovers. I wish I had thought of that sooner, But oh well.  Mark audio drivers are  really great for what they are, and the enable process from planet 10 hi-fi makes them sound so much better, but they are more for that type of listener that uses Backhorn cabinets and listens to more intimate music.  But unfortunately in Audio, you don’t really know what something sounds like for you until you hear it and decide if that fits for you. We can get all the advice in the world and still have it not work out for us.

 My current system includes an Oppo 103 universal player, audio note 2.1B dac, Tortuga LDR light dependent resistor V25 passive preamp, a Primaluna dialogue 4 amplifier with Psvane KT88 treasure II tubes.  All cables I built myself; Coherent Sound Design power cords, interconnects with my own design incorporating carbon fiber, and speaker wires with carbon fiber. The best sound I’ve heard so far.  But, we are always looking for more aren’t we?

 The quest continues…
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 05, 2018, 01:11:54 PM
hi nick,

i'm curious as to what happened w/your "pursuit of full range single driver speakers".  did you try stuff and not like it?  or something else?

i have a few comments regarding the products you linked.  i wouldn't even consider the audience speakers, unless you want desktop-only speakers.  those rel's you linked are not subwoofers, they're woofers.  at that price, you can do far better.  you could actually get a real sub!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html

or, get two cheaper subs, for the price of the rel:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=SW305&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xyamaha+SW305.TRS1&_nkw=yamaha+SW305&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=SW305&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xyamaha+SW305.TRS1&_nkw=yamaha+SW305&_sacat=0)
(i happen to own a pair of these; seriously decent servo subs, for not a lot of $$$ and, you can use them as speaker stands.)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2VXspFAZqEnNZF7nQAZ-PlvfUjXo1swiTszGbK8pcveFIDNJkM_fRq475I9La7jUT5qFqtgj1VikiEXt4VQ5897iMa6qMNxE42OIPvnBMXhYYFxm5hZKzJuJyyW-IRbw6WHI799QKQERF1PhyMDpOL_0OXSZ95IKvH0qx6-9_J6YFzG-Y8qQcwdPfqA3nPeEzhOrk8LxW98D8h0Tya2L4nomsY7MoCn5_jPUzsnhnPukZrqm7jLSZD_N81b43dBUN68KPlAbyodsbz_6UFtjJlP-7KbCRml0ghsaMmEjYQ1jH3PQBCa16-MWkf-1e0x_tGsWmYO5Qgtt-mBJJn9n54XT9lKRBSUK31js3VCjylDSgD-YGRjSUwHmCpxZv1UfaKF4_hXIqJYfeTrfldDQhZ7-GbUmQnAHwK3DLO52DYopWaWeVRKNeaNnVprmQwB5m66e_cIkm-ENA7v3XwvGMuBq-iS1ww15dO13VDbvFcN-A8Sl8ddn2H6wJk-95MNELDvM6PacV0N1ndbGASyj2JD0FDsFffUHO9WwmbGa-9kaEQdzVk1y7-tkEg2ZINbVIe1KpQBiKxluubtjyngN1heOk3f7S_jTGlekOpw=w954-h640-no)

(what replaced the yst sw305's):
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Corporation-America-SW315-Subwoofer/dp/B00009W8XH (https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Corporation-America-SW315-Subwoofer/dp/B00009W8XH)

or:
https://www.parts-express.com/bic-acoustech-h-100ii-12-powered-subwoofer--303-414 (https://www.parts-express.com/bic-acoustech-h-100ii-12-powered-subwoofer--303-414)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629 (https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634 (https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634)

regarding the evolution acoustics', they look like they might be contenders, but at that price, i'd be looking at the boenicke w5se. (1st link is the w5; 2nd is the w5se follow-up):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/boenicke5/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/boenicke5/1.html)
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/boenicke/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/boenicke/1.html)

or even the much less expensive kef ls50 actives.  which would be excellent, if you're wanting simplification.  i own a pair of the passives, and they are great, imo; the active's are supposed to be even better.
(one of many stellar reviews):
https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review (https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review)

i would also seriously consider any of the proac monitors - i own a pair of the tablette 8 reference signatures, and they're really quite astonishing, how loud they can go, in a big room - if actively crossed over to subs.  in my ~26x38x8.5 room, crossed over at ~70hz to subs, they'd go as loud as you would ever want.  if not crossed to subs and really cranked, they will bottom out - there's only so much a 4.5" woofer can do, haha!  tone and soundstaging is superb. they've been updated by newer tablette 10 ref sigs, and proac also has other monitors - the response series, and the studio monitor series.  i'd recommend trying any or all of them.  i've heard other older tablettes and response monitors, as well as proac floor-standers, and all were superb.

doug s.

Hi Doug and thanks for your comprehensive response and ideas.

I’ll give my latest criteria for speakers and a sub
1 a budget reference in sound quality
2 takes up a relatively small footprint in my living room listening area
3 is relatively easy to lift, box and ship (I don’t want to rely on a neighbor or friend....)
4 will keep for at least 10 years ...just as my SP Techs that I had for 11 years
5 is $3,500 or less

I will start off by saying that I’m not pursuing single drivers any longer and my sustained exposure to them is the reason. I had a Tang Band W 1808 in an open baffle at my home and it sounded too “thin”
I did not add a sub to help out. I then listened a couple of times at Gary’s...aka gander at AN.... and his Mark Audio single drivers didnt do it for me either. I again considered the sound “thin” even though he had them in a large enclosure to help with the bass. I then researched alternatives to come up with the Audience and Evolution which I listed above.  I spoke with the designer at Audience about the 1+1 V2s and asked to speak with a customer who had them. The conversation with that very seasoned audiophile helped a lot as his associated equipment, room size and use of the small REL sub...actually a woofer as you mentioned....were familiar to me. The lure of that Audience bipole design with passives on the side of the cabinets was the potentially really wonderful midrange and Ken,the audiophile, assured me they could fill my listening space. As to the subs, I dont have a need for or want bass thats in the low 20s, a sub that is heavy or awkward to lift and ship at some point.
I found out about the Evolution Acoustic Micro One’s via the What’s Best Audio forum....Guys with excellent systems who owned the speakers. Very high praise for these. I spoke with the Evolution distributor and two dealers and hope my email is forwarded to the designer as well. The knock on these for me is that theyre shipped in wooden crates and the shipping weight is about 200 lbs.
i know the associated stands are very heavy to benefit speaker performance, but I really don’t want to deal with this stuff. There is a possibility i might be moving in a year or two, so simplicty and convenience are quite important to me.
You mentioned the Boenickes and malloy...aka Paul here...had previously mentioned them. No doubt a wonderful speaker, but new they go nowadays for about $5,500 and maybe more for the se version. By the way, i forgot to mention i can get a very good price on the Micro Ones. So the Boenickes are out of my price range. 
I’ve owned Proac Response 2s If I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago. I will take a look at the Proacs and search re user comments. I’m sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special. I’ll be following up on this again soon
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 05, 2018, 04:16:42 PM
Hi Doug and thanks for your comprehensive response and ideas.

I’ll give my latest criteria for speakers and a sub
1 a budget reference in sound quality
2 takes up a relatively small footprint in my living room listening area
3 is relatively easy to lift, box and ship (I don’t want to rely on a neighbor or friend....)
4 will keep for at least 10 years ...just as my SP Techs that I had for 11 years
5 is $3,500 or less

I will start off by saying that I’m not pursuing single drivers any longer and my sustained exposure to them is the reason. I had a Tang Band W 1808 in an open baffle at my home and it sounded too “thin”
I did not add a sub to help out. I then listened a couple of times at Gary’s...aka gander at AN.... and his Mark Audio single drivers didnt do it for me either. I again considered the sound “thin” even though he had them in a large enclosure to help with the bass. I then researched alternatives to come up with the Audience and Evolution which I listed above.  I spoke with the designer at Audience about the 1+1 V2s and asked to speak with a customer who had them. The conversation with that very seasoned audiophile helped a lot as his associated equipment, room size and use of the small REL sub...actually a woofer as you mentioned....were familiar to me. The lure of that Audience bipole design with passives on the side of the cabinets was the potentially really wonderful midrange and Ken,the audiophile, assured me they could fill my listening space. As to the subs, I dont have a need for or want bass thats in the low 20s, a sub that is heavy or awkward to lift and ship at some point.
I found out about the Evolution Acoustic Micro One’s via the What’s Best Audio forum....Guys with excellent systems who owned the speakers. Very high praise for these. I spoke with the Evolution distributor and two dealers and hope my email is forwarded to the designer as well. The knock on these for me is that theyre shipped in wooden crates and the shipping weight is about 200 lbs.
i know the associated stands are very heavy to benefit speaker performance, but I really don’t want to deal with this stuff. There is a possibility i might be moving in a year or two, so simplicty and convenience are quite important to me.
You mentioned the Boenickes and malloy...aka Paul here...had previously mentioned them. No doubt a wonderful speaker, but new they go nowadays for about $5,500 and maybe more for the se version. By the way, i forgot to mention i can get a very good price on the Micro Ones. So the Boenickes are out of my price range. 
I’ve owned Proac Response 2s If I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago. I will take a look at the Proacs and search re user comments. I’m sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special. I’ll be following up on this again soon
Nick
well, the shipping box for my kef ls50's is ~22l x 16h x 14w.  the proac's are triple-boxed (they made a round-trip to latvia), and the packaging is a hair smaller than the kef's.  ;)

and, if you want small packaging, then the boenicke's are the way to go!
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/boenicke5/26.png)

re: pricing (and not just the boenicke's) - don't buy new!  especially if you aren't sure what you really want!  and, re: the w5's, it was my understanding that it's the se+ that has the heavy premium; the se is not much more (if any) than the standard iteration.

re: subs, my yamaha's are "20-160hz".  but, in reality, that's -10db down at 20hz.  but, it's still way better than -6db down at 38hz!?!  sorry, but that's simply a total waste of money, imo.  none of the subs i quoted are foundation breakers; neither are they pansies.  and they aren't difficult to move or ship.  from what you're telling me, tho, it sounds like a pair of the 12" dayton audio subs would be perfect - real bass in a smaller room, but not overwhelming.  and <$300 shipped - for a pair! at that price, even buying new wouldn't be a big deal.  not sure why it is you wouldn't want better bass response - it simply means that, at whatever level you're listening to, it will be less distorted.  but, if you're wanting less response, i'd still go w/something like the smaller dayton audio subs.  sorry, i have always thought rel was a rip-off - i had a $1500 rel in my kitchen for a spell, and my yamaha's are at least as good.  that $500 "subwoofer" takes the cake for worthless, imo - if you want less, don't pay more!  ;)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628 (https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000l-10-100-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639 (https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000l-10-100-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639)

regarding your comment:
"I’m sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special."
really?  who'd a thunk?  lol!  you and everyone else!  the speakers i mentioned fall into that category, imo.  of course, i haven't heard the boenicke's, but i don't think the hype is misplaced.  of course, if i were wanting to sample w/o a demo, i would only be buying used, so i wouldn't be taking a bath if they turned out not to be my cuppa.

and, one other speaker; i mentioned it before.  i've never heard it, but i heard its bigger brother, which absolutely crushed the ~3 times more expensive salk audio soundscape 8's, imo, which were playing right next store at the caf a few years back.  (and the salk's were in a much better room.)  and at $1350 retail, again, these are not wallet eaters.  and i've seen 'em used for <$1k (i believe i posted a link for a used pair awhile back.)  and yes, if they have the philharmonic audio house sound (dennis murphy design), they will be "something very special".

http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html (http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html)
(http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/images/bmr-jr-black.jpg)

or a little smaller, but still output to 40hz, and -3db at 45hz:
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/New%20Philharmonitor.html (http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/New%20Philharmonitor.html)
(http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/images/revraal.jpg)

ymmv,

doug s.

Some valid points, Doug. I get your logic for the most part. Regarding audio gear, you’ve probably heard and have had in your home, way more stuff than i have. I’ve been at it since the late 70s and early 80s, but ive owned maybe 10 amps and 10 speakers over the years. Heard many, many more at shows and friends, but it's all pretty useless unless I live with them in my home.

I appreciate your thoughts and take that into account. Rather than proceed as I did with the Nolas and Tang Bands and Mark Audios, I’ve decided to take a different route this time in my approach and I’m happy the way it’s going. Interesting that you mentioned the Philharmonitors. I may have bought these already, but Dennis Murphy never got back to me when I left a voice mail or sent an email. Same for Louis at Omega over at Audio Circle. Vendors, if you want me to buy, give me a couple of minutes of your time. I’ve encountered that a fair amount. Oh, yeah, same for the SOtM guy. No response to my inquiry.
I dont need real low bass. I don’t need to “feel” the bass. The Yamahas you mentioned are too big. Don’t want an eBay special thats dinged up. Im happy with an 8 or 10” driver for bass. I dont listen to much at all that needs it. There are maybe 4-5 instruments that go that low. Why not have subs that go real low...because theyre usually too big, too heavy and maybe too ugly. I guess what’s easy to move is relative to if the guy has had back surgery or not.....
Regarding the Boenickes, they may really be great. Havent checked the specs recently, but iirc they get into the 50s, so I’d still need a sub or woofer supplementation. As to me wanting something special....that still goes ...lol....or not. This equipment is part of my home like fine paintings or works of art. Thats what I want. My wife’s wishes are part of the equation as well.
In addition to getting a pair of speakers, I’ll have to factor in efficiency as well as my hefty McCormack amp will be out the door as well to be replaced by a smaller, lighter amp.
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 05, 2018, 05:37:36 PM
hey - don't get me wrong - i was only lol'ing  because most anyone on these forums is wanting that "something special".  i still daydream about that "perfect speaker"...   :thumb:

dennis murphy is typically swamped - i'd give him another shot.

check out srajan ebaen's take on the boenicke 5se's - he had them in a positively huge room and said subs were optional. (his follow-up review of the links i posted)  and, it's pretty hard to out-do them if you're wanting something cool looking in your home.

re: amps, have you checked out the mivera audio thread on mike's new ice amp, on that "other" forum?  way high power, way small amp, not too expensive, either; even for his all-out effort.

re: subs, check out the dayton audio subs i linked - not huge by any means - just half-decent bass, is all.  ;)

re: back surgery; i had chronic back pain, pretty-much every single day, for more than 10 years due to a slipped disc  once a year or so, it would go out, and i'd be incapacitated for a few days.  then i discovered inversion tables; in three weeks, the pain was gone.  i've been pretty-much pain free for many years, now.

doug s.

So you haven’t found that perfect speaker either..... Yes, I understand  :lol: I will look at the Boenicke SEs.....and used would be the only choice.  Dont want any sub if I don’t need it....and maybe I’ll give Dennis another try. I wanted your thoughts on subs again. In my situation where I value small and compact and lightweight, would two smaller subs work as well as one larger one?...it would be much easier for me.
I just  called rel and the TZero isnt enough for me and the 7i was recommended which is an 8” front firing and a passive 10” downfiring. Its too much $$ and again I want a smaller footprint.
I have been following the Mivera thread and he has quite a following “over there”   Although i cant remember exact pricing, i get the feeling its more than i want to spend as Jeremy...folsom....
has an amp that many rave about including Dave aka Mr Uber whose opinion i quite value.
Plus folsom just came out with another more powerful design. He mentioned it here on the forum.  I didnt order the boards as I’m not much the diyer and I wanted Dave’s opinion as well. So amp wise, I think there are some great options for me.
Regarding my back, its fused and I’m doing pretty good, but I want to be careful as well
Oh, and I’ll check out Dayton again
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 06, 2018, 09:49:51 AM
oh, and regarding amps, mivera initially offered a basic amp w/options for ~$800; diy.  now, a standard upgraded amp is ~$1500, and a full-tilt model is ~$1800.  yes, expensive, but it has build quality and componentry better than 5-figure competition, even on the standard amp.  and, huge power.  there's a coupla 1200AS2 based amps out there that are about the same price as mivera's, but the case and componentry is nowhere close to even the standard $1500 model; it's not even up to the original $800 diy amp's standards.

https://www.miveraaudio.com/ (https://www.miveraaudio.com/)
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=204.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=204.0)

re: the folsom 7297 amp, i've bought two kits; just waiting to hive income flow again, to populate them as i want and build them out.  the research's has been done.  yes, considerably less money than the mivera's, but low power as well.  the new folsom amp kit coming out is higher power, (60wpc/120wpc - 8/4 ohms), but still nothing compared to the mivera's.  and, if you don't want to diy, i am certain you could find folk willing to build it for you for a nominal fee.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/319331-folsom-ec7293-battery-solarcell-powered-feedback-60-120w.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/319331-folsom-ec7293-battery-solarcell-powered-feedback-60-120w.html)

doug s.

The Mivera pricing is likely more than I’d want to spend. Reading the posts at AC, it certainly appears that everything he does is top notch. The latest posts are about the case and his insistence about top notch quality control. Seems the case vendor may have been taking some short cuts.
Now I do have a McCormack DNA 1 Gold amp modded by Steve McCormack and his partner Kris. I could likely sell it tor at least $1,500 or more. So would I want to spend $1,800 on Mivera....whose name really isn’t that well known yet, and replace my known quantity McCormack at this time, I don’t think so. I’d also need to at least break even on the deal.
The folsom amp price point is much more appealing. As I mentioned, Dave really likes it and it would be great to get your input as well once you can finish yours to your standards.
Although I was thinking recently about trying a tube amp, solid state is very likely the way I’ll go. My friend Steve  and I were recently at Gary’s place and Gary did some tube rolling in his Prima Luna. It sure was fun and the variations from song to song were quite interesting. If I went tube, it would be a design where the tubes aren’t driven hard as I wouldn’t want to retube every 2 or 3 years.
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: rollo on March 06, 2018, 10:43:32 AM
  As I have stated before do not overlook fritz Carrera speakers $3500 list. In your set up you will not need subs with Fritz. Full bodied with a top end to write home about.

charles
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 06, 2018, 12:01:29 PM
  As I have stated before do not overlook fritz Carrera speakers $3500 list. In your set up you will not need subs with Fritz. Full bodied with a top end to write home about.

charles

I haven’t forgotten. You are talking about his 7BE model....his top of the line I believe. Spoke with Fritz maybe a month ago. A great guy and quite the conversationalist.
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 08, 2018, 08:42:31 PM
As I continue to digress a bit from the original topic, I spoke with Fritz Heiler today and what a nice guy he is. I mentioned some speakers and he has heard my old SP Techs along with the Audience1+1 v2s and Evolution Acoustic Micro Ones. In fact, the EA designer Kevin uses the same series crossover design methodology that Fritz uses on his Carrera BEs. I did a little bit of name dropping mentioning that I knew Charles Rollo as Charles carries the Fritz. So I will likely audition the Fritz and am still thinking about the others. I’m a fan of listening to new speakers, but the idea of boxing stuff up and sending it back to the manufacturers I don’t much care for. Also spoke with an EA dealer in California and he was quite a nice guy and a very straight shooter. I do have a threshhold for listening to bs, but today I thankfully didn’t encounter it.
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: rollo on March 09, 2018, 08:02:55 AM
As I continue to digress a bit from the original topic, I spoke with Fritz Heiler today and what a nice guy he is. I mentioned some speakers and he has heard my old SP Techs along with the Audience1+1 v2s and Evolution Acoustic Micro Ones. In fact, the EA designer Kevin uses the same series crossover design methodology that Fritz uses on his Carrera BEs. I did a little bit of name dropping mentioning that I knew Charles Rollo as Charles carries the Fritz. So I will likely audition the Fritz and am still thinking about the others. I’m a fan of listening to new speakers, but the idea of boxing stuff up and sending it back to the manufacturers I don’t much care for. Also spoke with an EA dealer in California and he was quite a nice guy and a very straight shooter. I do have a threshhold for listening to bs, but today I thankfully didn’t encounter it.

  Pump some iron young Man. Not that heavy. You will not be disappointed.  :thumb:



charles
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 09, 2018, 12:43:37 PM
As I continue to digress a bit from the original topic, I spoke with Fritz Heiler today and what a nice guy he is. I mentioned some speakers and he has heard my old SP Techs along with the Audience1+1 v2s and Evolution Acoustic Micro Ones. In fact, the EA designer Kevin uses the same series crossover design methodology that Fritz uses on his Carrera BEs. I did a little bit of name dropping mentioning that I knew Charles Rollo as Charles carries the Fritz. So I will likely audition the Fritz and am still thinking about the others. I’m a fan of listening to new speakers, but the idea of boxing stuff up and sending it back to the manufacturers I don’t much care for. Also spoke with an EA dealer in California and he was quite a nice guy and a very straight shooter. I do have a threshhold for listening to bs, but today I thankfully didn’t encounter it.

  Pump some iron young Man. Not that heavy. You will not be disappointed.  :thumb:



charles

The Fritzes aren’t heavy, but the Evolution Acoustics shipping weight is 198 lbs in two wooden crates. The base on the special stands on which the speakers are bolted must weigh a lot....I’m guessing 60 lbs each. So that would be a royal pita. Now that I got my Silver Sneakers card I need to head to the gym and bulk up 🏋🏻‍♂️
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 09, 2018, 10:04:27 PM
a couple of other ideas popped into my head regarding speakers.  aurum cantus - i have never heard them, but they get great reviews, and they do have an excellent ribbon tweeter.  and the cabinetry is gorgeous

http://cattylink.com/page231.html (http://cattylink.com/page231.html)
(http://cattylink.com/_wp_generated/dd6ca881e95b.jpg)


and a usa dealer:
https://www.audiophile-direct.com/collections/stand-mount (https://www.audiophile-direct.com/collections/stand-mount)


and these, which i ran across, because i was searching for aurum cantus; and they use the aurum cantus ribbon tweeters:
roksan darius s1 - also fabulous looking.  and about $7k retail w/stands.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/rX0AAOSwURxanDyP/s-l225.jpg)

reviews:
http://hifipig.com/roksan-darius-s1-standmount-speakers/ (http://hifipig.com/roksan-darius-s1-standmount-speakers/)
https://www.whathifi.com/roksan/darius-s1/review (https://www.whathifi.com/roksan/darius-s1/review)
a pair on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roksan-Darius-S1-Reference-Loudspeakers-What-HIFI-5/112849904743?epid=10015959380&hash=item1a4660e467:g:rX0AAOSwURxanDyP (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roksan-Darius-S1-Reference-Loudspeakers-What-HIFI-5/112849904743?epid=10015959380&hash=item1a4660e467:g:rX0AAOSwURxanDyP)


then, there's piega coax standmounts; attractive in a different way.  and i know they will sound fantastic, because i have a pair of their older floorstanders, which are actually very similar, but go a few hz lower as they have dual woofers, and they also are a few db more efficient.

my piega's:
(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/p5ltdmkII_2_300304.jpg)

piega standmounts:
(https://pic6.qimage.de/06/99/07/b203079906.jpg)
the coax 10.2's  have great specs, and the coax ribbon driver is truly amazing.  the midrange ribbon crosses over to the woofer at something like 450hz, and the midrange/tweeter coax driver x-over is at ~3.5khz.  their specs:
Recommended amplifier output - 20 - 200 Watt
Sensitivity - 90 db / W / m
Impedance - 4 ohms
Frequency range: 36 Hz - 50 kHz
Dimensions (H x W x D) - 41 x 19 x 22 cm
Weight - 13 kg
Design principle - Compact 3-way speaker
Equipment: 1 x 15 cm bass, 1 x C2 coaxial mid/tweeter
Connection - Bi-Wiring / WBT
Drawings - Aluminum cabinet, black metal grill, optional: silver grill, black anodized cabinet, white painted cabinet

on ebay (seems a bit on the spendy side, but maybe not, as they retailed for ~$7.7k):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282793104599?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282793104599?rmvSB=true)

on private listings (seems too good to be true?):
https://www.quoka.de/hifi-audio-tv-video-foto/boxen-lautsprecher-kopfhoerer/c7265a195202191/paar-piega-coax-10-2.html (https://www.quoka.de/hifi-audio-tv-video-foto/boxen-lautsprecher-kopfhoerer/c7265a195202191/paar-piega-coax-10-2.html)
http://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971 (http://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971)

if the two private listings are legit - ie: if they will accept paypal and/or a credit card, i'd just buy them if i were in your present situation.

doug s.

Doug,
You sure come up with some interesting stuff in your research. Buying something like the used Piegas
would be a big gamble based on my recent history with the Nolas and single drivers. It’s a big plus though that you and Carlman both have/had Piegas. I will mention that my max budget for speakers is $3,500.
Now, the Aurum Cantus V30s look very interesting and the price is right. I read two reviews .....
the one from Enjoy the Music more glowing than the 2nd. The 2nd reviewer had minor negative comments on the midrange and bass. On that review, I kept thinking he still hadnt found the right amp for them. The quality of the drivers appears excellent. The price includes shipping AND a 60 day return policy. The quality and appearance are excellent. So this China based based product with an American distributor looks like the real deal. I do wonder if adding the right sub would give even better results.
Regarding the REL subs I was looking at, I still like the smaller footprint and I very much like how the sub is designed. By that I mean that the REL has a speakon connector that has three wires...two + and one -  Each + is connected to the + terminal on the R L of the amp. The - is connected to either the R or L - Now, I like that quite a bit as it appears other subs require that the speakers wires connect to the sub and imo that’s a big pita..at least for me. The REL also offers wireless for the sub. Now that’s another very convenient feature. I do have a small living room, but the ability to not have to route a long wire direct to the sub is nice.
Another thing regarding your recommendations on cheap subs. Does it really make sense to use one or two cheap subs when partnering with speakers that use high quality drivers. I ask because I have no experience with subs. Never...nada.
So let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: tmazz on March 10, 2018, 07:04:57 AM
Nick be very careful with cheap subs. There are a lot of cheap subs out there that are aimed at the Home Theater market, which has much looser SQ requirements than we have for music. In a HT system the sub pretty much  is used to provide impact. It doesn't need to be of the highest quality as long as it gets you attention. For example, when you are just reproducing the dinosaur thumps as the T-Tex is chasing someone in Jurassic Park or explosions during the attack scenes in  Pearl Harbor sound quality can be secondary to the visceral effect. As long as the bass shakes the floor and hits you in the chest it will do just fine (for the most part.) Many of these subs to just fine when watching movies, but fall far short when used to reproduce music. In sound effects the impact of the boom is the primary objective. However in a high end audio situation we want much more. When listening to tympani drums in and orchestral piece pure impact is not enough we also wand to hear speed and articulation in that we should distinctly be able to hear the impact of the drum hit separate from the resonance of the drum itself and be able to track the rise and fall time of the sound. When listening to something like a Ray Brown bass solo we want the resolution to hear all of the individual note stand on there own instead of  being mushy and just running into one another.

The bottom line here is that cheap bass is easy, but rarely very good and good bass is hard to do and in most case hard equates to $$$.

IMO opinion while stereo subs is always a desirable situation, you would be much better off with a single high quality sub as opposed to a pair of cheap ones.

Also keep in mind that subs are strange creatures and there optimal placement rarely coincides with what out other halves would consider pleasing from a decorating point of view. So if you don't have a dedicated room where you would have the freedom to place the subs anywhere they need to be, you might just be better off having one and keep the disagreements to a minimum. As someone who move from a house with a dedicated listening space that was all mine to do what I wanted with to a house where the only place to put the system is in the Living Room I am dealing with this kind of issue all the time not only with subs, but also with speaker placement in general, acoustic treatments etc. I deal with this kind of thing all the time.

I ended up getting a pair of Carver True Subwoofer Super Jrs which are small and I can tuck them somewhat out of sight. I know there are places in the room that they would sound better, but...........

I actually started out getting one, but a few months after I got the first one a second one popped up on eBay for a stupidly cheap price so I couldn't not give it a try.  :roll:

Had it not been for that I would have been OK with one.

Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 10, 2018, 11:54:36 AM
I appreciate both comments about the subs. I’m always learning and picking up new information. As I’ve mentioned previously, I want a small footprint and limited weight in all my audio decisions. Because of a family medical situation....my wife and brother are dealing with cancer, I may have to move at some point in the future and the more I can handle and do myself, the better. Because of my back surgery, I try and be smart about moving and lifting things. So it’s easier for me to lift my 65  lb McCormack amp than it is to lift the 40 lb Nola sub that I had. It’s easier for me to lift and maneuver a monitor than a floorstander. The Nola is larger in size and therefore makes it harder. Smaller is what I want and that’s not going to change.
Trying to make these decisions about speakers and subs is why I post here and call the manufacturers. REL advised to not use their smallest sub and go with their T7i.
As to how to hook up subs, I really don’t know. As I had quite the complication from knee surgery, Gary drove up and hooked up the Nola for me. I thought the speaker cables went to the sub and then more speaker cables to the amp. That’s what I remember. I was however quite sick and it appears I’m way off base on that.
 Don’t get me wrong, I love a great bargain, but I’m trying to make a purchase for the long term. At this point in my life, I’m not into tinkering and replacing equipment every one to two years. I’d like to enjoy stuff. Life is short. And if I need to pay more to accomplish that, i will pay it. So I can’t buy the excellent drivers and build my own cabinet and be done for $1,000. However, I may be able to replace my McCormack with a Folsom amp for a great price based on what Danny and Dave E are saying.
To conclude, I’ve learned so much more about audio in the last two years and much of that is from this forum. Gary has made me ic’s and power cords that are superb. Dave’s Uber is phenomenal. So
it’s an especially fun time to be in this hobby
Nick
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: tmazz on March 10, 2018, 09:38:33 PM
Doug I don't disagree withe you "up to a point" at all. I was just speaking in generalities, but I always leave room for the possibility of a product that just performs was about it'' prioce point. They are rare, but they're out there.

But I think that any of us who have been in this hobby for any length of time develop a sense of what can generally be expected out of products  selling at various price points and I was just talking in general about what you could expect from most of the subs at the lower end of the price spectrum vs what you can get by spending a bit more money. I was speaking about lower priced subs as a class and did not mean to imply that everything in that general price vicinity would sound that was.

By all means keep looking for those golden nuggets that play way outside of their leagues. Hey, that's what we do as audiophiles, try to get the best performance we can given out system budgets. and finding that great bargain piece is just like hitting that perfect gold drive. I may only happen once in a blue moon, but the possibility of it happening again is what keeps us coming back.
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: tmazz on March 11, 2018, 02:30:56 PM
tmazz, on the opposite end of the spectrum are companies with high prices, where the only advantage you get is to boast how much money you spent!   8)

doug s.

Sad, but true. I can't tell you how many times I have walked into a room at an audio show and heard six figure systems that not only did not sound good relative to the price, but IMO did not sound good PERIOD.

Of course there a plenty of big ticket items that sound great, just not all of them.
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: richidoo on March 11, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
Hard to make anything sound good at a show. That's why I rarely go anymore. The gear is brand new, no break in, and a small portion know how to or have the time to place speakers well. I don't judge gear based on what's heard in a show. There are plenty of ways a demo rig can go belly up that's not their fault.

But if a company has been selling very expensive gear for many years and growing bigger all along then you can bet there is good value there, even if you can't perceive it. No company can survive, much less in extreme niche luxury hobby business, without their customers perceiving good value. That doesn't mean everyone can appreciate what is being offered or its value. There are plenty of products intended to appeal to everyone, we need more weird stuff to keep things interesting.
Title: Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
Post by: Nick B on March 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
nick - i have never heard these.  but i've always wanted to, just because of what i've read about 'em.  they might be of interest to you; the prices are right as they're used.

ATC SMC19 Gen2:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8fe1e-atc-smc19-gen2-speakers-cherry-monitors (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8fe1e-atc-smc19-gen2-speakers-cherry-monitors)
(https://ucarecdn.com/c3482604-3874-4289-a483-68a574dad178/-/autorotate/yes/)
(https://ucarecdn.com/11ebab94-b4af-4edd-a36a-653968deebac/-/autorotate/yes/)

great reviews:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/atc-scm19-loudspeaker-1/ (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/atc-scm19-loudspeaker-1/)
http://hifipig.com/atc-scm19-loudspeaker/ (http://hifipig.com/atc-scm19-loudspeaker/)
https://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm19/review#node-content-start (https://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm19/review#node-content-start)
s'phile gave them "class a" - restricted extreme low frequency, in for 2014; only one other speaker in that ranking was less than the atc's $4.3k retail price - the $1.5k kef ls50's.  i own ls50's; they are sweet...)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/2014-recommended-components-fall-edition-loudspeakers (https://www.stereophile.com/content/2014-recommended-components-fall-edition-loudspeakers)

alternate atc's - more expensive, but self-powered - important w/this brand, as their speakers crave power:
http://tmraudio.com/speakers/bookshelf-monitors/atc-scm20-2-powered-bookshelf-speakers-scm20-2a-pair-active-monitors/ (http://tmraudio.com/speakers/bookshelf-monitors/atc-scm20-2-powered-bookshelf-speakers-scm20-2a-pair-active-monitors/)
(the same dealer also has them listed on agon, for $200 more, go figure)
(https://positive-feedback.com/Issue39/images/IMG_0807.JPG)

review:
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue39/atc_scm20.htm (https://positive-feedback.com/Issue39/atc_scm20.htm)
manual:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/atc/scm20-2a.shtml (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/atc/scm20-2a.shtml)

good luck w/your search,
doug s.

Hey Doug,
I have heard of ATC and I think they were mentioned on the Whats Best forum. I’ve been researching the Aurum Cantus that you mentioned and in particular the pricier  Volla MK 2 model. Some videos on YouTube about ACantus there and a number of positive comments online on their tweeters. It’s pricier at $3,150 and the distributor Roger offers a 60 day trial. Geez, I’d love to have a top notch non-fatiguing tweeter amongst other things. I’ll check out these ads tonight. I’d likely be doing a trial soon, but heading to So California next week for some family visits.
Nick