Author Topic: Rock or Classical  (Read 15320 times)

Offline mfsoa

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 05:00:15 PM »
Random thoughts:
Reproduction of classical vs. rock: In college many moons ago we pitted my DCM Timewindows against my buddies Polk something-or others. On rock, probably Steely Dan or Zappa, the speakers were close - I preferred mine but I admit it was close. But on classical the difference was night and day, w/ the Polks pooping out and the Windows winning clearly. Getting classical right is much harder, it seems.

Rock vs. classical music: I became interested in classical by playing drums in the HS band/pit band/jazz band and then one year in the top Rutgers U wind ensemble (apparently one of the best bands they had ever had, but while some of the drummers were cool, man did I not fit in w/ the rest of the clique). We listen mostly to classical at home now, often streaming 320 and 256K internet stations all day (gotta love free, 24/7, commercial and announcer free music that you've never heard before) and our (my wife too  :thumb:) brains have become accustomed to the dense harmonies and tonal colors and the harmonic motion inherent in the music. Then we'll play some rock etc. and our brains feel starved for the aforementioned goodies. There is just so much more there there with classical, its hard to go back. Not that Joe's Garage didn't get a good workout the other day... To me, music (usually) needs that "statistical density" (great Zappa line) to keep me interested.

Funny story: In HS I was considered the music snob and my friends thought that my tastes were so limited because I only liked jazz (Ellington to Coltrane to Corea/Cobham/Mahavishnu) and classical (Bach to Stravinsky) while they were the enlightened ones because they liked Lynyrd Skynrd AND Marshall Tucker  :rofl:


Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2015, 07:38:40 PM »
Can't stand classical in the car. Background music..maybe. When i sit in an office for an appointment and classical is coming out of the ceiling speakers forget it. It comes across more like garbage "acid Jazz". :rofl: But on a powerful detailed system that can layer with lots of air ..Gonzo. No music imo can benefit from a good system like classical. Rock does not require air or transients to make sense. Its 4/4 with hopefully some catchy beats by talented musicians but you get the gist of it. Classical is different when heard right. What I love about hi fi. The ability to pull apart the music leaving the musicians (to demonstrate) what they offer to the final outcome. Its what makes hifi worth it for me. I don't listen to much classical. I try and i like it. But i look for good electric jazz or early Brass Swing. Jazz suffers the same. No one hears it like its supposed to until its on a good powered system that layers with ease. Classical is more demanding than jazz. Like by about 10 fold.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 07:40:37 PM by Werd »
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline S Clark

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1330
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2015, 11:34:48 AM »
After listening to rock/pop from ages 12-37, it simply became boring and I listened less and less.  I've always been a classical fan from my early days of piano lessons and daily drill of Bach and Chopin.  I rediscovered my love of music with a system upgrade and exposure to high quality source material around 2002 (thanks Danny Richie).
Since then, 95% of my listening is classical and jazz.  The occasional soundtrack, folk, or classic rock lp finds the turntable, but most of those genres don't do much for me.
Speaker-GR Research LS9-XStatik-AltecFlamenco
Amp-Moscode,Dodd,Folsom
Pre-Dodd
Turntable-Vyger,Victor,TechnicSP10MK2
Phonopre-Hagermann,Jolida,GSlee   
Cable-AudioSensibility Wywires TWL
Cartridge-Dynavector,Sumiko
Tonearm-PioneerP3,Jelco
Rythmic sub

Offline topround

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1498
  • Life without Bach, would be a mistake
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2015, 03:15:17 PM »
I agree the music I grew up on doesn't do it for me anymore.
I am 90% classical, well baroque more accurately, it just works for me.
The other day I went to a concert, not classical, some of the type of music I listened to when I was younger. I sat there and was sort of bored, it was music just to sell tix, it could not fill my soul.
Classical in the car is awesome, any music in the car is awesome, best time I had with music was in the car. I wouldn't spend another dime on audio gear for my home, but I would invest in a better stereo for the car, just more smiles per mile!!
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2015, 04:54:19 PM »
Raised on jazz, no rock no classical. My high school friend invited me to go see the last great tour of Earth Wind & Fire in 1980 with Maurice White still singing. I said no I don't like that shit. Now I have all their vinyl and will always regret missing that. My friends loved Bryan Adams, Journey, Van Halen, etc but I couldn't stand it. I was not exposed to good hard core rock until much later. I finally started shedding my jazz snobbery and listening to Bach in late teens after hearing Double Harpsichord concerto on the radio. Bought lots of Glenn Gould Bach. Added Holst Planets and Appalachian Spring both Bernstein NYP. That's about it until a decade later when I heard Dvorak American String Quartet on the radio. That got me into hifi and Dvorak 9th symphony got me into symphony craze.  That led to Beethoven and eventually Russians and I really fell in love with music again. After all that, I finally started enjoying jazz again. Beethoven was very important to me on every level.

Now I'm ready to get into rock for the first time. I have a Jimmy Hendrix record, 1 Zeppelin, Hmmm not much else from the classic rock era. It's all wide open. I love it and I listen to the classic rock station all the time. I really listened close to Doobies China Road a couple weeks ago, incredible masterpiece!

Offline topround

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1498
  • Life without Bach, would be a mistake
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2015, 06:17:07 PM »
there was a period in my life of about 1.5 years in the 90's when I listened to a lot of hard core death metal.
certain groups were just very talented in their own way. My wife and friends thought I was nuts but there was a certain visceral dynamic emotion to the music that grabbed me in a primitive way.

From Bach cantatas to death metal  strange journey, but my understanding of music made it just a bit more interesting for me, and the violent emotion just grabbed me and threw me around...it was fun....
groups like Grip Inc, Life of Agony, Clutch...system of a down when they first came out....Ministry...so many groups I forget them now.


now......bach cantatas......Matthew passion has been in my car for like 4 months now!
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2015, 06:49:09 PM »
I sat through Matthew live once, never again. What is it, 3 hours long? I lost some of my respect for Bach that night. He must have been paid by the note for that one.

Sure it's beautiful, for the first 20 minutes, but after an hour I'm ready for Shostakovich 5th Symphony to kill some people. After 3 hours I never want to hear the word Bach ever again.  :rofl:

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2015, 09:13:07 PM »
I can't listen to any minor Bach
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Nick B

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2015, 11:07:33 PM »
Was traveling to California today and tuned in a classical station for about 20 minutes. That's about  all I could take. What is it about classical that is most enjoyable... The structure of the piece... The complexity and beauty of the different instruments?
Is it sometimes an acquired taste and, if so, how did you go about acquiring it. If you didn't enjoy it at first, did you keep at it so to speak and begin enjoying it over time?
If you didn't enjoy a piece, what was it that was lacking?
I am curious Rich why you loved the first 20 minutes and didn't care for the rest.
I am just trying to understand classical on a much deeper level
Thanks
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2015, 07:00:23 AM »
What is it about classical that is most enjoyable... The structure of the piece... The complexity and beauty of the different instruments?

Classical is more complex, more sophisticated than popular music. The sophistication is primarily harmonic, which allows more intense emotional development. More dopamine, the hormone that makes life worth living.

Quote
Is it sometimes an acquired taste and, if so, how did you go about acquiring it.

Everything is an acquired taste. Music listening is a skill. Popular music takes advantage of the skills you already have and does not challenge the listener at all. Well that's not true, most pop is deprave and challenges you to accept new negative thoughts that bring your consciousness down. It's designed to slip right in unnoticed, to overcome your resistance to the depravity, and tickle your funny bone, give you the beat, appeal to your animal instincts, maybe plant a few subliminal negative messages, but no higher order comprehension required. Other genres deliberately challenge your listening skills, your musical sophistication, you knowledge, your tolerance of dissonance, your ability and willingness to have a dopamine response (strong and meaningful emotional experience.) So with genres other than pop you have to learn to listen to it, it has to grow on you. Like any genre, classical offers easy music to start off with, and this leads you to harder material that offers more intense experience when you are ready. That's how I look at it.  There are many classical works written to appeal to popular music listening skill. Mozart wrote what later came to be known as "twinkle twinkle little star," etc. A few pieces from 1800s became pop hits in 1970s with little change. But Bartok and Schoenberg never had any hits. Most beginners will really hate their music. But it grows once you have been introduced gently by Dvorak to the concepts that they dive very deeply into like dissonant or atonal composition. People reject music because it forces your mind to open to ideas and feeling you don't want to experience.

Quote
If you didn't enjoy it at first, did you keep at it so to speak and begin enjoying it over time?

Forcing yourself to listen to hard music will not be successful. You are only practicing rejecting it. To grow as a listener, you should listen to music you like, but avoid boredom. If you want to add classical music to your listening repertoir, you need to find classical music that appeals to you, and wear it out. When you wear out music, or get bored of it, that means you are craving something more powerful, and classical can supply what you crave. The next thing will come along. You'll hear it on the radio, or read about it. Over time your listening skill and craving for musical intensity and the feelings it brings will increase. When I started listening to classical I discovered new composers and stuck with them until I got it, then another would come along and I'd go off with them. I still return to the others to dig deeper, but the big treasures are easy to find. Once you've found 10 treasures by Dvorak you are getting into the weeds and might start hearing the "house sound." If you have a deep spiritual connection to his music it will last longer, but otherwise you'll move on, seeking deeper more powerful music. You'll start to sense there is a treasure inside yourself that you are digging for and the music is the shovel.

Sometimes the problem is that pop music has weakened you. It gives you everything, like a $20 hooker. Let's get this over with. Here's the beat now move! Here's some ear candy, now smile! Here's some sex lyrics, get horny! It is the music of the masses, the masses love to be massed, and corralled into the same conformitive thought and feeling. If you've only ever listened to pop, you may feel uncomfortable breaking off from the herd and flying on your own without max headroom telling you what to think and what to feel. The best way to cleanup a teenage loitering spot is to play classical music there. But use bulletproof speakers. It forces them to expand their mind which prevents herd/gang/crowd think, forces them to be individuals. This is why you don't have fights drugs and rape at music concerts playing music for individuals.

Quote
If you didn't enjoy a piece, what was it that was lacking?

It is lacking a fertile mind for the musical seed to take root. I swear at it and change to the pop station.

Quote
I am curious Rich why you loved the first 20 minutes and didn't care for the rest.

Because it is too long for my tolerance. Bach is a unique sound. All Bach music sounds similar in melody, harmony, and structure. Once you've heard a little, you got it. Whether you want more is a spiritual matter. It is as easy as pop to absorb, it just slips right in. But most people can't listen to that much Bach because it calls forth the deepest spiritual feelings possible from your current level of spiritual development. It has extremely intense harmony, very simple and pure which penetrates deeply into your soul. There is no music more musical than Bach. Some listeners are not ready or willing to open so deeply to the rays of heaven. But some are born with supernatural ability to listen to it without limit. Whoever commissioned St. Matthews Passion was one such superman, or got taken, we'll never know. I find it pretty easy to listen to Bach's tempo music, it has a beat, strong structure, it's a little music machine in bite sized chunks. Some of it is just exercises he wrote for his keyboard students. But it all has the Bach magic. But that is a small part of his canon. Most of what he wrote was church music, something new every Sunday for 3 decades? Most of it was choral music. St. Matthews Passion is mostly choral songs, lots of solo singers. It's kind of like a opera before opera got big. The singers sing simple Bach melodies over and over for hours. The music stops, starts, space and pause like an opera. It's not like his English Suites for Harpsichord that is a teletype machine pumping out intense melody and harmony for easy consumption. Unless you follow along with the story, understand German, it can be difficult to take that stop/start singing of the same sound over and over for 2 hours, no intermission. For 20 minutes it is new, and it sounds beautiful.

Quote
I am just trying to understand classical on a much deeper level

You can try to imagine it, to mentally process your current information into an illusion of understanding about something you've not fully experienced. But you'll find it difficult to imagine it accurately, so you'll be forced to make assumptions which leads to prejudice. To know classical music you have to jump in and do it. Find some classical works that you enjoy to listen to, then consume them over and over until you are bored. Then something new will come along, rinse, repeat.

In the past we have done threads about appropriate music for a beginner to start listening to a new genre, to get them hooked. I need to start one for rock, but it might be a good time for another classical thread like that.

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2015, 07:24:56 AM »
  For me it is the content of the venue wether rock or classical. I'm trying to feel the emotion that the composer or writer had in mind.
  Since rock is mostly over processed it just sounds unnatural to me most of the time.
   No matter what format for me the recording just cannot be over processed. Interpretation of classical music varies from conductor to conductor.  So what is right ? Who's interpretation is correct or just different.
   Rock is a different animal s it thrives on bombastic sound which not even be  instrument. Contrived sound as opposed to real instrument .
    For the beginner I would play acoustic guitar at first a familiar sound most know. If the system is good than an immediate emotional impact is had.
    From there once cozy with sound then different genre introduced.
    I love all music except Rap. Bet is great lyrics not for me. I go by my mood for selecting the material to listen to any particular day. Not tied to any one genre.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline Nick B

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2015, 01:29:38 PM »
What is it about classical that is most enjoyable... The structure of the piece... The complexity and beauty of the different instruments?

Classical is more complex, more sophisticated than popular music. The sophistication is primarily harmonic, which allows more intense emotional development. More dopamine, the hormone that makes life worth living.

Quote
Is it sometimes an acquired taste and, if so, how did you go about acquiring it.

Everything is an acquired taste. Music listening is a skill. Popular music takes advantage of the skills you already have and does not challenge the listener at all. Well that's not true, most pop is deprave and challenges you to accept new negative thoughts that bring your consciousness down. It's designed to slip right in unnoticed, to overcome your resistance to the depravity, and tickle your funny bone, give you the beat, appeal to your animal instincts, maybe plant a few subliminal negative messages, but no higher order comprehension required. Other genres deliberately challenge your listening skills, your musical sophistication, you knowledge, your tolerance of dissonance, your ability and willingness to have a dopamine response (strong and meaningful emotional experience.) So with genres other than pop you have to learn to listen to it, it has to grow on you. Like any genre, classical offers easy music to start off with, and this leads you to harder material that offers more intense experience when you are ready. That's how I look at it.  There are many classical works written to appeal to popular music listening skill. Mozart wrote what later came to be known as "twinkle twinkle little star," etc. A few pieces from 1800s became pop hits in 1970s with little change. But Bartok and Schoenberg never had any hits. Most beginners will really hate their music. But it grows once you have been introduced gently by Dvorak to the concepts that they dive very deeply into like dissonant or atonal composition. People reject music because it forces your mind to open to ideas and feeling you don't want to experience.

Quote
If you didn't enjoy it at first, did you keep at it so to speak and begin enjoying it over time?

Forcing yourself to listen to hard music will not be successful. You are only practicing rejecting it. To grow as a listener, you should listen to music you like, but avoid boredom. If you want to add classical music to your listening repertoir, you need to find classical music that appeals to you, and wear it out. When you wear out music, or get bored of it, that means you are craving something more powerful, and classical can supply what you crave. The next thing will come along. You'll hear it on the radio, or read about it. Over time your listening skill and craving for musical intensity and the feelings it brings will increase. When I started listening to classical I discovered new composers and stuck with them until I got it, then another would come along and I'd go off with them. I still return to the others to dig deeper, but the big treasures are easy to find. Once you've found 10 treasures by Dvorak you are getting into the weeds and might start hearing the "house sound." If you have a deep spiritual connection to his music it will last longer, but otherwise you'll move on, seeking deeper more powerful music. You'll start to sense there is a treasure inside yourself that you are digging for and the music is the shovel.

Sometimes the problem is that pop music has weakened you. It gives you everything, like a $20 hooker. Let's get this over with. Here's the beat now move! Here's some ear candy, now smile! Here's some sex lyrics, get horny! It is the music of the masses, the masses love to be massed, and corralled into the same conformitive thought and feeling. If you've only ever listened to pop, you may feel uncomfortable breaking off from the herd and flying on your own without max headroom telling you what to think and what to feel. The best way to cleanup a teenage loitering spot is to play classical music there. But use bulletproof speakers. It forces them to expand their mind which prevents herd/gang/crowd think, forces them to be individuals. This is why you don't have fights drugs and rape at music concerts playing music for individuals.

Quote
If you didn't enjoy a piece, what was it that was lacking?

It is lacking a fertile mind for the musical seed to take root. I swear at it and change to the pop station.

Quote
I am curious Rich why you loved the first 20 minutes and didn't care for the rest.

Because it is too long for my tolerance. Bach is a unique sound. All Bach music sounds similar in melody, harmony, and structure. Once you've heard a little, you got it. Whether you want more is a spiritual matter. It is as easy as pop to absorb, it just slips right in. But most people can't listen to that much Bach because it calls forth the deepest spiritual feelings possible from your current level of spiritual development. It has extremely intense harmony, very simple and pure which penetrates deeply into your soul. There is no music more musical than Bach. Some listeners are not ready or willing to open so deeply to the rays of heaven. But some are born with supernatural ability to listen to it without limit. Whoever commissioned St. Matthews Passion was one such superman, or got taken, we'll never know. I find it pretty easy to listen to Bach's tempo music, it has a beat, strong structure, it's a little music machine in bite sized chunks. Some of it is just exercises he wrote for his keyboard students. But it all has the Bach magic. But that is a small part of his canon. Most of what he wrote was church music, something new every Sunday for 3 decades? Most of it was choral music. St. Matthews Passion is mostly choral songs, lots of solo singers. It's kind of like a opera before opera got big. The singers sing simple Bach melodies over and over for hours. The music stops, starts, space and pause like an opera. It's not like his English Suites for Harpsichord that is a teletype machine pumping out intense melody and harmony for easy consumption. Unless you follow along with the story, understand German, it can be difficult to take that stop/start singing of the same sound over and over for 2 hours, no intermission. For 20 minutes it is new, and it sounds beautiful.

Quote
I am just trying to understand classical on a much deeper level

You can try to imagine it, to mentally process your current information into an illusion of understanding about something you've not fully experienced. But you'll find it difficult to imagine it accurately, so you'll be forced to make assumptions which leads to prejudice. To know classical music you have to jump in and do it. Find some classical works that you enjoy to listen to, then consume them over and over until you are bored. Then something new will come along, rinse, repeat.

In the past we have done threads about appropriate music for a beginner to start listening to a new genre, to get them hooked. I need to start one for rock, but it might be a good time for another classical thread like that.

Rich, thanks so much for your detailed and thoughtful response. I'll be looking for some Dvorak when I get home. As I was stuck in so California traffic this morning, I found the USC classical station and believe I listened to a march from Berlioz and a piece called The Ascending Lark. Was very enjoyable trying something different
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2015, 05:50:06 PM »
Look for Julia Fischer "The Lark Ascending" on her album Poeme.

Try Dvorak 9th Symphony "The New World" by New York Philharmonic, Leonard Bernstein conducting.

You should be able to find these free on Splatify. Sad but true.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2015, 05:53:09 PM »
topround, I didn't mean to downer your St Matthews Passion, i was just teasing.  I am curious how you listen to it? Do you ever sit down for the whole thing, or just leave it playing all the time and pick it up bit by bit.  Did you ever hear it live?