Author Topic: Rock or Classical  (Read 15322 times)

Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 06:13:01 AM »
Ken,

I don't think anyone is advocating playing a system at a steady 110 db, but the ability to reach that kind of dynamic, if only for a millisecond makes quite a difference in presenting a realistic sound picture. back in the late 80s some did an experiment (I believe it was J. Peter Moncreiff  of IAR) that used an oscilloscope to look at the microphone feed of the click made by a pair of scissors opening and closing. He recorded this and then tried to reproduce the same sound through a spare of speakers, at the same SPL as the original.When he looked at the output of the amp on a scope he saw that the waveform was clipped as compared to the input signal. He kept substituting bigger and bigger power amps until he found one that didn't clip the output (again with the same spl.) It wasn't until he got up to nearly 1000 (yes 1K) watts that the signal out of the amp was a faithful reproduction of the input signal. Now granted, it only needed that amount of power for a mere fraction of a second, but without that kind of headroom you could not reproduce the full fidelity of the signal. And while there are not too many scissor clips in most of our music collections, I dare say that they do contain a lot of cymbal crashes, which have a very similar transient profile. The bottom line is that the advantage of a big amp is not that it can drive your system to higher volume levels, but rather it can make your system sound better when it is playing at lower volume.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 06:41:15 AM »
Bob Smith has written about this high power peaks issue too, not on his website, maybe on AC.  And it's not just high level peaks that relate to this. That's the joy of high efficiency speakers. Micro dynamics even at 80dB come through easier on lower power when the speaker requires less current.

Nice post BobM, my feelings exactly

Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 08:10:15 AM »
That stands to reason since dynamic range is always measured relative to a starting point. Say you have a peak that, even for a small amount of time requires 100 times more power than your steady state listening level. If you have a set of very high efficiency speakers that only require 1/2 watt to produce a normal listening level, the peak will only be 50 watts, not a big challenge for most amps. However if your speakers are starting with a 5 watt steady state requirement then the peak jumps all the way up to a hefty 500 watts, a tough job for even some out our best high end behemoths.
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Offline JLM

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 08:34:44 AM »
There is no perfect speaker.  The best you can do is to find the optimumal set of trade offs to fit your individual wish list.  I chose to give up some efficiency to get reduced colorations.

I agree that the dynamic range of movies is bothersome as our HT system is not in an enclosed room away from family.  An isolated/dedicated room helps.

And some of the numbers I've thrown out are way low according to some (but they are in the minority).  They advocate for being able to reproduce peaks around 130 dB!!  That would correlate with the 1,000 watts to do the scissors.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2009, 08:43:48 AM »
Thanks for fleshing that out with numbers, tmazz. Makes sense! I guess a 110dB sensitive horn can make 2A3 amp sound like kingkong.

On the other hand, hitting the peaks without clipping is not as important to me as clipping softly so it doesn't hurt my eays from distortion. Another way to do it is compress the top 3dB to soft clip. If the microdynamics are happening within the normal macrodynamic range, then it sounds alive and I'm satisfied. The dynamic peaks are just fun spice. But full dynamics can blow unsuspecting people away who have never heard that on a stereo. To get the frighten factor from powerful transients you either need low noise floor or high power amps. Is it worth it? And how many records leave the raw fear in there, uncompressed?

We need a good old fashioned sound effects CD, like in the golden era of vinyl audiophiles. Recorded digitally with full dynamic range. Some lightning storms, train whistles, drag racing. woohoo!

Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2009, 11:48:04 AM »
Rich,
You have just run into the First Law of High End Audio - "You can never have it all, so you must  prioritize what sonic characteristics are important to you and then make a series of compromises that preserve the things at the top of your list." And of course the ranking of characteristics on your list will be heavily influenced by the types of music that you listen to most often. And there is no right or wrong. Your list is just that, your list. If it makes you happy, that's all that counts. My mancave is my domain and I am very comfortable with the decisions and comprises I made in putting together the system down there. If anybody else doesn't like it, as far as I don't hold it against them, but I really don't care either.
Here is one other monkey wrench to throw into the works. For various reasons hearing is not a consistant thing amongst all people. While the range of human hearing theoretically goes from 20 to 20kHz if you gave everybody a hearing test and plotted there sensitivity vs frequency you would find that not two people had exactly the same curve.So what we hear out of an audio system is a combination of what the system is able to put out combined with what our individual ears are able to take in. So it is very possible that two people with different sounding systems and different hearing capabilities are actually "hearing" the exact same things from there systems when you factor in there hearing differences. This is not to say that there are not a number of common characterises to all good systems, but there are just too many moving parts for there to no one best or right answer. Live and let live.

Tom
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Offline Carlman

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2009, 11:59:03 AM »
Here is one other monkey wrench to throw into the works. For various reasons hearing is not a consistant thing amongst all people. While the range of human hearing theoretically goes from 20 to 20kHz if you gave everybody a hearing test and plotted there sensitivity vs frequency you would find that not two people had exactly the same curve.......
So it is very possible that two people with different sounding systems and different hearing capabilities are actually "hearing" the exact same things from there systems when you factor in there hearing differences. .....

Don't forget the 3rd major component.. not everyone LISTENS the same way.  I can have better hearing and still miss he most important part of the arrangement... How you choose to focus when you listen is a big factor.

Rich knows all of this.. I'm just adding my 2 pennies for 'thoroughness'. ;) ha.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2009, 12:40:22 PM »
You're right. And this could go on and on... Like I said, lots of moving parts. But if it was too easy it wouldn't be any fun, would it?
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2009, 01:04:20 PM »
Everyone knows the feeling of wanting more. It is a belief not a law. If I keep learning and pushing back then the wall of resistance moves. Technology changes are making more things possible. I like to discuss the possibilities with other like minded audiophiles!  :D

It's boiling down to how do we value dynamic performance of the audio system.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2009, 04:24:41 PM »
We would all need bank accounts like Donald Trump if we were to buy as much as we talk :rofl:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2009, 06:55:44 PM »
Music or System(?)


I just enjoy Rock music more than Classical, and I've built my system to get the most out of the music I enjoy...
Happiness is when your system overcomes your nervosa ;) 
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2009, 10:02:18 PM »
That's the whole idea.  :D
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline rollo

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 06:55:29 AM »
That's the whole idea.  :D


 Exactly. Float ones own boat.


charles
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Offline sleepyguy24

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 08:35:06 AM »
Thought you all might get a kick out of this picture I found.



For me it depends on the mood I'm in. I've come to enjoy classical music now but will always listen to various forms of Rock. For me it gets the blood pumping. My favorites have always been the rock/classical collaborations.

Offline Nick B

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Re: Rock or Classical
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 12:12:28 PM »
I have never been into classical. I guess maybe I'm simple minded..not smart enough to enjoy it  :duh  For music, I like a beginning, middle and end. No more than 4 minutes usually. To me classical oftentimes is not "tuneful" and meanders for many minutes. Anyone else have similar feelings??
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