AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: Bigfish8 on September 30, 2007, 11:50:57 AM

Title: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on September 30, 2007, 11:50:57 AM
I am wondering if any of you guys own or have listened to Daedalus Speakers?  I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks,

Ken
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: WEEZ on September 30, 2007, 06:39:10 PM
Hi Ken,

I heard them last year @ RMAF. They were driven by Red Dragon class D amplifiers. This year, they are showing with Art Audio amps :drool:.

I remember them sounding very smooth...maybe slightly dark. Rich and full. I'll listen again this year and take better notes; and report back in a couple weeks.

In the meantime, contact Jim Hines; I believe he still has a pair. Forget which model, though.

WEEZ
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on September 30, 2007, 06:57:07 PM
Hi Ken,

I heard them last year @ RMAF. They were driven by Red Dragon class D amplifiers. This year, they are showing with Art Audio amps :drool:.

I remember them sounding very smooth...maybe slightly dark. Rich and full. I'll listen again this year and take better notes; and report back in a couple weeks.

In the meantime, contact Jim Hines; I believe he still has a pair. Forget which model, though.

WEEZ

Weez:

Thank you for the response and I look forward to your report from RMAF (I wish I had planned to go).  I have traded PMs with Jim and like me he owns SP Tech Timepieces in addition to the Daedalus.  Jim is a huge fan of the Timepieces and has not listened to the Daedalus Speakers for some time. 

I wonder if the new Daedalus Speakers will be at RMAF?

Again I look forward to your comments when you get back.

Thanks,

Ken
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: WEEZ on September 30, 2007, 07:09:52 PM
Yes, they say they will be showing the new models. I'll do my best to report what my ears tell me. :)

The only SP Tech speaker I've heard is the Nuforce 9's. If, and I mean IF, the 9's are typical of the SP Tech 'sound', I can already tell you that Daedalus speakers and SP Tech speakers sound nothing alike.

WEEZ
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on September 30, 2007, 07:22:18 PM
Yes, they say they will be showing the new models. I'll do my best to report what my ears tell me. :)

The only SP Tech speaker I've heard is the Nuforce 9's. If, and I mean IF, the 9's are typical of the SP Tech 'sound', I can already tell you that Daedalus speakers and SP Tech speakers sound nothing alike.

WEEZ

Weez:

I find my Timepieces have tremendous accuracy, are very revealing, excellent bass and to me lack warmth.  My system consists of:

Odyssey Mono SE amps
Odyssey Candela Preamp (tubes)
Bolder Analog Modded S3 with Platinum Caps feed by a Bolder Modded Elpac VM 220 Power Supply
The S3 feeds a stock Burson Buffer into the Preamp
Speakers - SP Tech Timepieces
SCs- Gregg Straley Reality SCs
ICs - Grover Graphites
PCs - Black Sand Silvers to Amps and Preamp

I did not hear the Timepieces before I purchased them.  Again, they are certainly accurate and revealing as you expect from a Monitor Speaker.  However, I think long term I will want a speaker that may not be as accurate but has more warmth.  This is my first "high-end" 2 channel system and I have not listened to many speakers.  Prior to receiving the Timepieces I had Monitor Audio 9is.  They lacked the detail and low end of the Timepieces but they had what I would describe as a warmer sound.

To make a long story short I will continue to live with the Timepieces for awhile and hope I will come to love them.  However, I am already browsing the threads about speakers.  I read comments and visited the Dadealus Site and I felt they would be worth learning more about them.

Thanks Again,

Ken
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on September 30, 2007, 07:57:12 PM
If you know anyone who has Harmonic Tech or another OCC based speaker cable, you might want to give that a try.  The other thing you may want to try is swapping some NOS tubes into the Candella.  50's/60's RCA Blackplates will definitely warm things up.  If you need to go farther, you can get into Mullards.

I only got to listen to the Red Dragon room for a short while last year but my initial impression honestly wasn't enough to make me really want to make time to come back and listen again to the Daedalus'.  They just weren't my cup of tea - sorry.  I'll give them another listen this year if I get time - could just have been a poor amp/speaker matchup.

I found them to be very 'plain' for lack of a better term.  They really didn't do much of anything wrong, they just didn't really stand out and do anything special IMO. 

As always, YMMV.  Personal preference is a lot and it's certainly difficult to really make things sound good in a show setting in a hotel room.  I just heard a lot of other things that interested me a lot more than they did.

Bryan
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on October 01, 2007, 04:41:09 AM
If you know anyone who has Harmonic Tech or another OCC based speaker cable, you might want to give that a try.  The other thing you may want to try is swapping some NOS tubes into the Candella.  50's/60's RCA Blackplates will definitely warm things up.  If you need to go farther, you can get into Mullards.

I only got to listen to the Red Dragon room for a short while last year but my initial impression honestly wasn't enough to make me really want to make time to come back and listen again to the Daedalus'.  They just weren't my cup of tea - sorry.  I'll give them another listen this year if I get time - could just have been a poor amp/speaker matchup.

I found them to be very 'plain' for lack of a better term.  They really didn't do much of anything wrong, they just didn't really stand out and do anything special IMO. 

As always, YMMV.  Personal preference is a lot and it's certainly difficult to really make things sound good in a show setting in a hotel room.  I just heard a lot of other things that interested me a lot more than they did.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan:

You are the third person to suggest different cables.  I think I will take out the Grover ICs and evaluate the Groneburg's in their place.  I will then take out the Reality SCs and evaluate the Groneburgs I have there.  If I like the changes I will then start seeking new cables.  Also, I guess I need to purchase some tubes and start evaluating them.  If I can warm the sound up a little I think I will be a lot happier.

Ken

Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: rollo on October 01, 2007, 06:01:47 AM
  The first thing I would try is swapping tubes in your preamp. As bpape suggested the RCAs or Mullards should warm it up a bit. second cabling. Start with the speaker cable as it makes the most difference.
     If all fails consider Adagio Speakers. They have an excellent synergy with your amps. good luck its only just begun.


rollo
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: richidoo on October 01, 2007, 06:05:48 AM
I agree with bryans advice. There's a lot of room left in the warmth knob, and the SPs will reveal those changes accurately. I tried stereofools HT 9Pro speaker cables, they did "warm" things up, I guess, but in a different way than tubes. It was more of a happier, funner sound, as opposed to actually changing the tone. I think it comes from the ring in the copper. It is a distortion mechanism that is very enjoyable. It makes everything sound "good." They do have full extension and I think they are an awesome SC, especially considering the price. Used ones do pop up on 'gonner fairly often.

With the warmth that comes from tube swap you may also find some loss of high end detail, so watch for that. To avoid this you may find yourself searching for rare and desirable NOS tubes. The quality of those is hard to know before you buy, so choose a used tube dealer carefully. I have bought from Andy Bowman of Vintage Tube Services (http://vintagetubeservices.com/) and I would recommend him highly for good used tubes that are well screened. You will get what you pay for with Andy. Used tubes are a bit of a game, you win and lose some, but it has a lot of advantages. The only real risk (with a good dealer) is that they will not  last very long, and/or will not produce full power since they are already used once. He also sells NOS stuff too. Many NOS tubes are mfg. rejects which is why they were not used. Now they sell for 100 times what the good ones did when still in poduction, so sometimes getting a good used tube is better value than NOS, but not always. I have also had excellent service from tubedepot for new production and NOS small tubes.

What tubes does Candela use?
Rich

Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on October 01, 2007, 07:08:55 AM
That's part of why I recommended the SC change first.  You get the bass extension and the warmth without losing the detail.  Distortion?  Maybe but I don't personally think so.  Then again, I've never been a fan of silver in the signal path - especially on speaker cabling - personal preference and system matching.

IMO, the RCA's (black plates) are the nice middle ground.  You still keep most of the detail but get some nice 100-800Hz warmth.  They can also be had at reasonable prices.  I paid around $40 for a pair a couple of times.  The Mullards go a little farther and are very system dependent as to whether it's too far or not. 

You can get into Telefunkens and some others but they start getting stupid expensive for a little preamp tube.

Bryan
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Black Sand Cable on October 01, 2007, 09:22:05 AM
Sorry guys but I'm going to step out on a limb here and play devils advocate. I disagree with almost everything that is being said here.

I still love you guys though!  :D)

Ken is reporting that the speakers lack warmth. This exact same thing has been said countless times about the Timepieces. It's not a knock on the speakers, it's simply the way they are designed. Some folks like it, some don't. I don't want to speak for Ken but I'm guessing he is currently in the don't like camp. Swapping tubes, speaker cables and ic's and hell even power cords isn't going to magically make these speakers warm to the point that Ken wants. He may get close via tube amps or high current SS amps but I still have my doubts. Keep in mind one thing, he is coming from a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 9i's that from all accounts he liked but wanted to move up the food chain. For any of you who have experience with Monitor Audio speakers you will know that it doesn't matter what he does with his current system, he is never going to get the Timepieces to sound even remotely close to the MA's. That is not to say that the Timepieces are a better speaker then the MA's as you wont get me saying that.....it's simply that they are two very different speakers that do what they do very differently.

IMO having him hunt down new ic's, speaker wire, tubes, power cords, etc etc is a complete waste of his time as it won't work. I may be wrong and you are all free to come back and say I told you so if he gets it to work but I have serious doubts.

I went down this road once upon a time with a set of very well reviewed speakers that were universally recognized as being overly forward, accurate, bright or whatever the hell term it is you want to use. At the end of the day I swapped everything in my system trying to warm them up and nothing worked. That experienced convinced me on my current belief of buy speakers you like first and build around them versus the other way around.

My thoughts are simply this. Why is Ken going to spend a bunch of time and money trying to tone down his speakers when he seems to be happy with his system in general? Would it not make more sense to keep the system he is happy with and replace what he is having an issue with?
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: miklorsmith on October 01, 2007, 10:09:51 AM
Ordinarily, I'd say yes, that makes perfect sense.  Here . . . not so much.  The thing is that SP Tech speakers are universally regarded as The Best in The World.  The normal rules of "different strokes" don't apply - everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes.

So, bend heaven and earth to get them to sound right.  Replace everything if needed.  Re-mortgage your home if equipment in your price range doesn't do it.  A life of crime can be very profitable if the house thing doesn't generate the scratch.

It might not make sense on the surface to pair reasonably priced speakers with megabux amps and wires and whatnot, but close your eyes and proceed.  Beeleeve you me, this is the One True Path, and one that you will thank me for, IF you have the fortitude to follow it far enough.

Of course, YMMV.   :D

Oh yeah, I haven't heard the Daedalus speakers.
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on October 01, 2007, 10:12:23 AM
To each their own and I understand your points and agree somewhat.  The difference is that most speakers that are warmish won't give you the detail that he does seem to like (and IMO the Timepieces are a lot better speaker).   I'll also say that IMO, I feel they're a bit on the forward side too.  They've got scads of detail and are very fast but it's not a sound I could listen to for a long time.  The thing is between those or the Daedalus, I'd still take the Timepieces because I CAN tame them.  I can't make the Daedalus sound exciting, image better, etc.

I'll just say that I've just finished 'tuning' my system to keep the attributes of the speakers that I liked but bring them 'back' a bit.  This was done with tube changes, IC changes, and swapping output caps in my preamp to OIMPs.  It can work - you just really have to know specifically what each piece is doing, what you're looking for, and what you can do to each piece of the chain to address it without sacrificing something else.  ... and I run a similar setup with a tube preamp and a solid state amp - but it's Class A up to 30W.  It can be a frustrating and expensive way to get where you want - but it can also let you tweak the details to your personal preference.

On the other hand, if you don't want to play that game, then I'd agree - get some speakers that may have a little less detail but have more of the frequency balance you're looking for.  Some of my personal favorites for this are the ACI Sapphire XL's - that's why I'm showing with Mike at RMAF.  Not overly edgy or forward but not laid back either.  Very reflective of what's driving them.  Reasonably priced.  Disappear into the abyss when set up properly.

I have a real good idea of what the Sapphires would sound like in that system.  I just last week listened to them on:

Korato KVP-20 (with the above mods mentioned)
Korato KVA-100 amp (also have a pair of Odyssey Mono SE's)
Boulder Statement mod SB3 with Boulder PS
VenHaus interconnects
HT Pro 9 SCs
ACI Sapphires

This is my system in my room with the exception of the speakers (my normal setup is Dynaudio Contour 3.3's)

Quite a nice system and something that has detail, imaging, warmth, and a sense of ease that will let you listen all day and night with no fatigue.

Anyway, I still love ya too  ;)

Bryan
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Black Sand Cable on October 01, 2007, 10:33:37 AM
Ordinarily, I'd say yes, that makes perfect sense.  Here . . . not so much.  The thing is that SP Tech speakers are universally regarded as The Best in The World.  The normal rules of "different strokes" don't apply - everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes.


I don't think I would go that far.....

I know a few folks who have had them and or spent time with them and they didn't do much for them. To say that they are the best in the world is a stretch unless you have heard every speaker made today and it's also a stretch to say "everyone loves them regardless of personal tastes". If that was the case this thread would not exist and Ken would not be here asking about Daedalus.

I would put my custom built RAW Acoustics HT3's or bpape's Dynaudio Contour 3.3 (nice speakers by the way!  :D) up against them in a heartbeat simply because I know that some would prefer the sound of the Timepieces and some would prefer the 3.3's and others the HT3's. At the end of the day It comes down to personal taste and what each person is looking for. I don't think there is a speaker that exists that can make the claim "it's so good everybody will love it"!
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: miklorsmith on October 01, 2007, 10:36:50 AM
I was kidding.
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Black Sand Cable on October 01, 2007, 10:40:38 AM
I was kidding.

My bad  :duh...I wasn't sure as I didn't see any  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) in your original post so I took it as you were serious.
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: miklorsmith on October 01, 2007, 10:44:49 AM
The whole "mortgage the house" and "life of crime" wasn't enough of a tip?  I'll try to be more extreme next time.   ;)
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Black Sand Cable on October 01, 2007, 10:48:05 AM
The whole "mortgage the house" and "life of crime" wasn't enough of a tip?  I'll try to be more extreme next time.   ;)

I don't claim to be the brightest bulb in the pack, just the best looking!  ;)

Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: miklorsmith on October 01, 2007, 10:52:37 AM
No worries mate, just playin'.  :D
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: shep on October 01, 2007, 12:21:40 PM
Just showing up... :duh Don't think the best in the world exist. Speaker tecknology changes all the time, as do our perceptions. Personally I'd rather take a more forgiving speaker that isn't so demanding, time-consuming and begging for money to be spent on it. Must be getting staid (or smart) in my ol age)
Haven't heard anything of this class for ages so I really haven't a clue! I adore my TLs and I really don't want to be confronted with any more choices! But I sure like watching the turmoil from my smug sidelines!
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: jrebman on October 01, 2007, 01:11:30 PM
I haven't checked out Lou's speakers in a couple years, but he would be the first to admit that razor sharp imaging isn't their thing.  That said, you do tend to get a hugely wide sweet spot where the sound is very full and balanced at "both ends of the couch".  The speakers are made of solid hardwood as well, so they are in the camp of "resonant" speakers, like Audio Notes, and others, and some people like that and others don't.  I do believe that Lou did make some changes to one or more of his original models and offered them with a single tweeter instead of the pair of offset ones, which did improve the imaging a bit, but they are still what I would consider fairly laid back and warm speakers -- though I'm looking forward to hearing the new one this year.  IMO, they also work much better with a very transparent tube amp, and as nice as the Red Dragons are, they are still digital amps and really just not the best match, again IMO, for the Daedalus speakers.  I think he used them last year because he needed a lot of power because he also used his speakers for PA duties for the evening entertainment.

Years ago, Lou built me a custom guitar amp -- his C-81 model that had a 4U rack space above the speaker cabinet which held a Pendulum SPS-01 preamp, a Lexicon effects box, and an original Stewart PA-200 amp, and was the only one he ever made of Ash wood.  It killed me to have to sell that amp (but not as much as selling the Martin and John Reuter custom that went with it.)

I think Lou would agree that he voices his speakers to sound "natural", like acoustic instruments, but then again, most of them you can push to 120+ dB.

-- Jim
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Woodsyi on October 02, 2007, 09:46:17 AM
Ken,

You might want to audition a tube amp.  I drive a pair of modded AV1s with a 60 watt 6550 push-pull amp and they don't sound lean -- very clear and transparent but not lean or fatiguing.  If you are near DC I can loan you an ARC VT100 to try. 
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 02, 2007, 05:27:23 PM
As many know, I'm a new member of the Timepiece club and I really think it's a very good speaker. I'm a fan of detail and this speaker does that well and has great dynamics, terrific bass response and a tweeter that I much appreciate. But.......I could use more warmth also. How to get there...I have no idea. I don't want a monster tube amp that will screw up my back again like the last amp I demo'd. The CIA D200's are performing much better with the Black Sand power cords. I've been toying with the idea of having different (V caps maybe) caps put in them, but don't know anyone who's gone down that road and I don't have the funds to do that now anyway. Jim (aka DU) gets that "organic " sound via his Butler Monads, but I'll never invest that much in an amp. In another life and with money to spare, I'd try the Omega single driver speakers, maybe with a sub, and a great little (not hernia inducing) tube amp, if there is such a thing. That setup has intrigued me for a long time, but I have zero experience with that type of system and don't know if it would resolve to extent I like.
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on October 02, 2007, 06:00:44 PM
If John says it's a go, I'd recommend the VH OIMPs before going to the Teflon V Caps.  The V's will give you more detail but no more warmth.  The OIMPs will give you the warmth without giving up much anywhere else.

Bryan
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 03, 2007, 08:35:24 AM
Bryan
Thanks for the info. I'll file it away for future reference. It would be an interesting project to have the D200's modded. BTW, which John are you speaking of?
Nick
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on October 03, 2007, 08:56:30 AM
Nevermind - senior moment.  I was referring to the amp manufacturer.

Bryan
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on October 06, 2007, 02:02:03 PM
Gents:

I just want to say thanks for all of the responses.  I have been away on vacation this week without computer access. 

My Timepieces were on center stage at Richidoo's G2G back in August.  They were connected to Rich's Tube Amps with some very high-end preamps, dacs and all kinds of SCs.  The Timepieces provided a different sound with every system change but no one in the group felt they were a speaker they would want to listen to for an extended period of time.  There were questions about what we heard due to the tube amps being 100 watt units and the Timepieces being inefficient.  I certainly learned that I can move the sound stage during the G2G but I am not convinced I can make these speakers deliver a "less in your face" kind of sound I would prefer. 

Thanks again for all of your comments.

Ken
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: Bigfish8 on October 06, 2007, 03:59:19 PM
I agree with bryans advice. There's a lot of room left in the warmth knob, and the SPs will reveal those changes accurately. I tried stereofools HT 9Pro speaker cables, they did "warm" things up, I guess, but in a different way than tubes. It was more of a happier, funner sound, as opposed to actually changing the tone. I think it comes from the ring in the copper. It is a distortion mechanism that is very enjoyable. It makes everything sound "good." They do have full extension and I think they are an awesome SC, especially considering the price. Used ones do pop up on 'gonner fairly often.

With the warmth that comes from tube swap you may also find some loss of high end detail, so watch for that. To avoid this you may find yourself searching for rare and desirable NOS tubes. The quality of those is hard to know before you buy, so choose a used tube dealer carefully. I have bought from Andy Bowman of Vintage Tube Services (http://vintagetubeservices.com/) and I would recommend him highly for good used tubes that are well screened. You will get what you pay for with Andy. Used tubes are a bit of a game, you win and lose some, but it has a lot of advantages. The only real risk (with a good dealer) is that they will not  last very long, and/or will not produce full power since they are already used once. He also sells NOS stuff too. Many NOS tubes are mfg. rejects which is why they were not used. Now they sell for 100 times what the good ones did when still in poduction, so sometimes getting a good used tube is better value than NOS, but not always. I have also had excellent service from tubedepot for new production and NOS small tubes.

What tubes does Candela use?
Rich



Hi Rich:

The Odyssey Candela is supplied with JJ Tesla 12AU7's.

Ken
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: richidoo on October 06, 2007, 04:32:27 PM
Ken I got something for you to try!!! A pair of these (http://store.tubedepot.com/bsct-12au7-rca-ct.html) and also some vintage Amperex and others that Jrebman sold to me. They are very warm and beautiful sounding, a little too much for me sometimes, but I love them. I'll bring them by when we get together for you to hear the possibilities.
Rich
Title: Re: Daedalus Speakers
Post by: bpape on October 07, 2007, 06:56:57 AM
These are the ones I run

http://store.tubedepot.com/nos-12au7-rca-bp.html.

Bryan