AudioNervosa
Electro Stimulation Ward => Signals and Noise => Power Cables => Topic started by: Werd on November 01, 2015, 01:50:07 PM
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Ok this is how I look at it after reading umpteen posts and partaking in many the conflict. An EE or an Electrician or any able body person able to take make measurements can not tell what something sounds like by using an oscilloscope used to measure electricity at a certain point. Oscilloscopes are not designed to measure hearing. All it can do is measure an electrical signal and display it on a screen. It will tell you the frequency but it can not tell you what it sounds like.
Here is an example of the reverse logic applied by many naysayers. I have heard them say this including supporters of cables. They will say "It helps to clean the contacts" and I agree. There is a very noticeable sonic change when contacts are clean. But if we measure the cable (using an oscilloscope) we see the exact measurements from both clean and dirty contacts. It's because oscilloscopes can not measure the impurities on the wire unless it changs a parameter measurable by an oscilloscope, like voltage. It doesn't tell you what the impurity content or the sound difference of the cable due to it.
Oh well ...
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completely agree.....
the measurement guys believe in their tools a little too strongly, we are talking about how a thing sounds and their tools cannot do that.
As I have gotten older my beliefs have changed or softened, so many shades of grey, I have heard low power, high efficient system sound awesome, also high powered huge speaker systems sound awesome, and old vintage systems put together so well they sound awesome...so many ways to cut this cake,,no right way, tubes or SS when done right it sounds great.
So easy to be drawn into a school of thought, like a cult...it limits your thought.
Yoga does teach to be less competitive, we are all in it together for the same reason, no one cares what the guy(usually girl) next to you is doing,we are there to practice yoga, your yoga is your yoga
love it so much!!
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How about the girl on the mat infront of you. Yowza oh yah. :thumb:
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Taking the other side... A cable doesn't sound like anything, it is not a transducer. Ideally it should remain perfectly silent at all times, and not smell either. :D
Cleaning the contacts would make an audible change if the contacts were dirty enough to substantially affect the total resistance of the load. This will reduce damping and affect the sound. The smaller the damping factor between the components, the more the dirty contacts will have an effect. The problem is most contacts these days are gold plated, so not much corrosion builds up in a lifetime to materially affect resistance.
There is much to be said about cables, blablabla. In the end, our brains have so much slop in perception that drowns out even the test instruments, much less our own ears. It is what it is. Buy what you think you like, get rid of it when you change your mind. That's really all there is. The mind is the elephant in the room.
"Know thyself" - Socrates
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The wire might sound transparent but cable as a whole won't. I am still not confortable with that analogy. Even though there is nothing wrong with it. If the cable has oxidized from lousy prong plating and if it's the impedance that is the culprit then that is one hell of a reciprocal effect. Only because the added resistance maybe negligible but the sonic improvement is way more substantial then cleaning off the tiny added impedance might suggest. So we have this small movement in resistance but a very noticeable sonic improvement. The highs just sound more responsive. That is weird.
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Power cables never made a difference until I bought the Black Sand Audio Silver Reference power cords some years ago. Interconnects never made much of a difference until I auditioned the Zen Wave stuff last year aka Dave 113 at AC. Measurements are interesting and useful for designing, but not for me. My ears are the final judge.
As has often been the case in my audio journey, "you don't know what you don't know"
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When I consider a cable either power or signal carrying to try it is just that. A cable is an entire assembly. The conductor is only one part. Winding of such, dielectric, shielding and connectors all play a role.
IMO the only way to tell if a able is right for your system is to just try it.
Measure this measure that is fine for a design goal but we still have to hear it in our system.
One size DOES NOT fit all no matter what brand. :D
charles
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Next time an engineer type tells you cables don;t matter ask him these questions ...
Is there a measurable difference between a pair of wires running parallel vs twisted?
Do different dielectrics affect wires differently?
Is there a difference in conductivity between gold, silver, brass, copper?
Does gauge make a difference?
Is there a difference between stranded and solid core wire?
Does shielding matter?
They will likely say "yes" to all of the above, so then as them how differently constructed cables can all be the same.
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What they say, and I mean always, is that you can not hear it. They go from being an EE to an expert on human hearing. Being able to read an oscilloscope gives you that ability apparently.
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What they say, and I mean always, is that you can not hear it. They go from being an EE to an expert on human hearing. Being able to read an oscilloscope gives you that ability apparently.
Wow, how true that is. I work with a number of brilliant engineers in the semiconductor industry that truly excel in their field. But damned if they aren't experts in most everything. :rofl: Just human nature I guess.
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What they say, and I mean always, is that you can not hear it. They go from being an EE to an expert on human hearing. Being able to read an oscilloscope gives you that ability apparently.
Wow, how true that is. I work with a number of brilliant engineers in the semiconductor industry that truly excel in their field. But damned if they aren't experts in most everything. :rofl: Just human nature I guess.
Hey. leave us PE's (Polish Enginerds :rofl:) alone!!!
My $0.02,
Pete the PE
"Strive for Perfection, Settle on Excellence!"
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What they say, and I mean always, is that you can not hear it. They go from being an EE to an expert on human hearing. Being able to read an oscilloscope gives you that ability apparently.
Wow, how true that is. I work with a number of brilliant engineers in the semiconductor industry that truly excel in their field. But damned if they aren't experts in most everything. :rofl: Just human nature I guess.
One of the best pieces of engineering advise I ever got came in the first day of one of my freshman engineering courses at New York Tech. The professor told us that two things that day:
1) You can never as an engineer be expected to know everything, just who to ask or where to look.
and
2) The most important thing you need to know as an engineer is what you don't know.
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They all like to get offended too. I had a conversation with an audio ologist on a diff forum. He likes thes the EE stance on this. I asked him, if reading an oscilliscope bears any weight in testing hearing then surely you use and have an oscilliscope at your clinic. He was offended.
He seemed convinced that being an audiologist his opinion was meaningful. I agreed, I asked him If he has ever tested hearng differences in cabling? He sid "no". I said well you are the man to do it, you should try and test hearing in cables and report back. He was offended.. lol.
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I am trying dissect to the problem. Is there a difference in these two assertions or which is correct?
Assertion 1. There is a discernible sonic difference between cables and humans can not hear it reliably?
Or
Assertion 2 There is no discernible sonic difference so therefore we can not hear it.
I can't figure out what their argument is?
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I think it's more of
"We can't measure a difference, hence you shouldn't be able to hear a difference"
and
"The materials used are not expensive so the finished product should not be expensive and you are wasting your money"
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Neither IMO. It is price of such. Not complaining about price so lets kill that thought right now.
Back in the day 10% of system cost was suggested for cabling which started the whole shabang. Those "High End" guys strike again.
charles
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Rollo pretty much nailed it. Of course L/C/R come into play. So do:
Magneto electrostriction
Dissipation factor
Dielectric absorption
Jacket material
Jacket density
Velocity of propagation
Materials purity
Conductor finish
Build geometry
Length/gauge ratio
Fixing type (screw, solder, crimp, weld...)
Plug type
Plug finish
This is part of what goes into the design of "a cable that matters." A great cable is a dynamic system and has to be approached in that manner.
Dave
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Decades, and decades ago, I performed some listening tests and the results surprised me. Wanted to see if there was a difference in ics back then, as was advertised. Kind of a different test, but somewhat simple to implement.
I made two pair of ics, same copper wire, same insulation, same capacitance, inductance, and resistance. Output impedances (Z) and input input Z of amp were approximately 2k and 100k ohms respectably. Ic capacitance ~40pf.
One pair of ics had plugs, one end plugged into my source jacks and the other end into the 10A line preamplifier jacks.
The other pair of ics was bare wire ends soldered to the source jacks (inside chassis), and soldered to a different inputs jacks on the 10A (inside).
The selector switch was used to select between the two different ics.
The sound was different, quite different between the two different ic pairs.
The entire system was common to both pairs of ics except the ic connection techniques.
I then compared two different type plugs with common termination techniques, different sound, so plugs make a difference.
I then compared two different termination techniques on same type plugs, so termination techniques also make a sonic difference.
Lastly, a listening test was devised/setup to check ics for accuracy in absolute terms. (The small variable is the jacks that the plugs mate to.)
Ics, make a sonic difference alright.
cheers
steve
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I figured since I just got a new pair of speaker cables I'd share my experience. I just bought a pair of MIT Matrix HD38's. The way I would describe the improvement is like sharpening the focus of an image like a camera. The whole spectrum improved bass, mids and highs. Spatially, depth etc. It was a very significant change and not subtle at all. This was witnessed bu another AN member as our jaws dropped.
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I figured since I just got a new pair of speaker cables I'd share my experience. I just bought a pair of MIT Matrix HD38's. The way I would describe the improvement is like sharpening the focus of an image like a camera. The whole spectrum improved bass, mids and highs. Spatially, depth etc. It was a very significant change and not subtle at all. This was witnessed bu another AN member as our jaws dropped.
What brand did these MITs replace?
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Older MIT
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Are MIT's very different from Transparent Cable?
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Are MIT's very different from Transparent Cable?
Back in the day (1980s) Transparent was the US distributor of MIT cables. At some point (i really don't know when, but the early 90s seems to ring a bell with me) MIT decided to take back US distribution and do it themselves. It is my understanding that back then MIT used to ship the raw cable stock and the connectors to Transparent, who did the final assembly here in the US so they would pay a lower tax in importing raw materials as opposed to finished goods.
Right when the companies split their products were very similar. I am not sure how they have diverged in the years since then.
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I am sure they are wayyyyyyy different now. Bruce is the brains behind MIT. They don't have that at transparent. I think they tried to emulate him right after the split but now there is an ocean between them.
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I am sure they are wayyyyyyy different now. Bruce is the brains behind MIT. They don't have that at transparent. I think they tried to emulate him right after the split but now there is an ocean between them.
Hmmm. Did not know this. I've only auditioned MIT's once when buying RCA's a long time ago. Went with some XLO's instead which turned out to be too bright, eventually. :lol:
Are the top tier MIT's still considered state-of-the-art?
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Not sure about the I C s but the speaker cables are awesome
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Decades, and decades ago, I performed some listening tests and the results surprised me. Wanted to see if there was a difference in ics back then, as was advertised. Kind of a different test, but somewhat simple to implement.
I made two pair of ics, same copper wire, same insulation, same capacitance, inductance, and resistance. Output impedances (Z) and input input Z of amp were approximately 2k and 100k ohms respectably. Ic capacitance ~40pf.
One pair of ics had plugs, one end plugged into my source jacks and the other end into the 10A line preamplifier jacks.
The other pair of ics was bare wire ends soldered to the source jacks (inside chassis), and soldered to a different inputs jacks on the 10A (inside).
The selector switch was used to select between the two different ics.
The sound was different, quite different between the two different ic pairs.
The entire system was common to both pairs of ics except the ic connection techniques.
I then compared two different type plugs with common termination techniques, different sound, so plugs make a difference.
I then compared two different termination techniques on same type plugs, so termination techniques also make a sonic difference.
Lastly, a listening test was devised/setup to check ics for accuracy in absolute terms. (The small variable is the jacks that the plugs mate to.)
Ics, make a sonic difference alright.
cheers
steve
But no conclusion on preferences?
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Decades, and decades ago, I performed some listening tests and the results surprised me. Wanted to see if there was a difference in ics back then, as was advertised. Kind of a different test, but somewhat simple to implement.
I made two pair of ics, same copper wire, same insulation, same capacitance, inductance, and resistance. Output impedances (Z) and input input Z of amp were approximately 2k and 100k ohms respectably. Ic capacitance ~40pf.
One pair of ics had plugs, one end plugged into my source jacks and the other end into the 10A line preamplifier jacks.
The other pair of ics was bare wire ends soldered to the source jacks (inside chassis), and soldered to a different inputs jacks on the 10A (inside).
The selector switch was used to select between the two different ics.
The sound was different, quite different between the two different ic pairs.
The entire system was common to both pairs of ics except the ic connection techniques.
I then compared two different type plugs with common termination techniques, different sound, so plugs make a difference.
I then compared two different termination techniques on same type plugs, so termination techniques also make a sonic difference.
Lastly, a listening test was devised/setup to check ics for accuracy in absolute terms. (The small variable is the jacks that the plugs mate to.)
Ics, make a sonic difference alright.
cheers
steve
But no conclusion on preferences?
No preferences between the soldered and plug types. In fact, never thought about it, nor could I test for accuracy anyway, not until a listening test setup was created. I always like to have two different ways to listen test. At the time, some 25-30 years ago, the point was they "sounded" different. Almost all use plug type ics anyway, so I worked with plug type ics in the lab.
Next question was what type plug, termination techniques to use, wire, needed to produce an ic that "passes" the musical signal accurately, making an "invisible" ic. Did I need to modify any parts, and/or termination techniques etc? Yes. Took a lot of work to find the answers.
cheers
steve