AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: malloy on October 14, 2017, 11:56:55 PM

Title: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on October 14, 2017, 11:56:55 PM
Has anyone messed around with Teradak or Ross Martin products? I thought the Teradak looked DIY until I saw the Ross Martin ones - white lamp cord, bare metal casing, and a distinct, (not even industrial, but agricultural, as one reviewer in another forum put it) look!

Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on October 15, 2017, 10:02:07 AM
Hi Paul,
I hadn’t heard of either one. Took a look at both sites. The Ross Martin site intrigues me a bit more. Wish I had some throw away cash to try a couple of those dacs.
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on October 15, 2017, 09:41:46 PM
Hi Nick,

Yes. Surprises me how there are still so many brands I've never heard of .   Dug around for a bit more info- Some say the Teradak is ok but reliability is not as good.  The Ross Martin is being hailed as very, very good and underpriced for what it does.  I've never had a NOS dac before and the ones I really want to try - Metrum, 47 Labs are too costly. 

Here are some pics of Ross Martin products from their website: 

(http://rossmartinaudio.com/index_files/image8511.jpg)

(http://rossmartinaudio.com/index_files/image558.jpg)
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on October 16, 2017, 10:59:17 AM
Hi Nick,

Yes. Surprises me how there are still so many brands I've never heard of .   Dug around for a bit more info- Some say the Teradak is ok but reliability is not as good.  The Ross Martin is being hailed as very, very good and underpriced for what it does.  I've never had a NOS dac before and the ones I really want to try - Metrum, 47 Labs are too costly. 

Here are some pics of Ross Martin products from their website: 

(http://rossmartinaudio.com/index_files/image8511.jpg)

(http://rossmartinaudio.com/index_files/image558.jpg)


Paul,
I’ve never tried an nos dac. I believe Dave ...dBe...uses one. It’s the Tranquility dac from Eric Hider which is mated to a Mac mini. I spoke to Eric some time ago about this and am considering it down the road. The pricing is reasonable
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Triode Pete on October 16, 2017, 01:43:41 PM
I love this one...

(http://www.borderpatrol.net/images/DAC%20Pics/bp3big-WEB.jpg)

http://www.borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm (http://www.borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm)

Use it on my home system with an Eric Hider configured Mac mini....

(http://www.borderpatrol.net/images/DAC%20Pics/BPedit2big-NET.jpg)

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on October 18, 2017, 09:34:42 PM
Wow! This Border Patrol one looks special. Gotta save up and upgrade from my el cheapo equipment!!

I'm interested at this one from MHDT Labs :

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/551c5a82e4b0c1e6d1556b74/57a8a7d1b8a79bb93664bd1d/591dc8a5f7e0abb8563b9ddf/1495124135413/mhdtsto.jpg)

Its got a tube and a glass front panel which reminds me of DNM amps.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on November 09, 2017, 10:42:36 PM
I just pulled the trigger on a Starting Point Nos DAC on eBay:  http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/  Don't know what got into me O:) . The devil made me do it. I just bid on the thing while at work.

Got it for $140 including shipping from France. 

(http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/Pict0860p50.jpg)

I wonder if anyone here has the same?

Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on November 09, 2017, 10:58:35 PM
I just pulled the trigger on a Starting Point Nos DAC on eBay:  http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/  Don't know what got into me O:) . The devil made me do it. I just bid on the thing while at work.

Got it for $140 including shipping from France. 

(http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/Pict0860p50.jpg)

I wonder if anyone here has the same?

Ok, Paul. Real good price. Too late to use the Flip Wilson line now  :) ...... keep us posted
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on November 10, 2017, 11:37:28 AM
Too late to use the Flip Wilson line now  :) ...... keep us posted

Haha! But I swear I didn't want to buy it!  The devil keeps following me around telling me how good these things sound! Dacs, cables, tubes, amps, Dave's power products... I hear him again. Telling me how good a planar headphone sounds...
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on November 10, 2017, 05:54:55 PM
Too late to use the Flip Wilson line now  :) ...... keep us posted

Haha! But I swear I didn't want to buy it!  The devil keeps following me around telling me how good these things sound! Dacs, cables, tubes, amps, Dave's power products... I hear him again. Telling me how good a planar headphone sounds...


You’ve come to the right forum. We can “help” you here. Really, we can :)
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on November 27, 2017, 09:15:36 PM
The DAC just arrived from France!  :thumb:

(https://preview.ibb.co/m0zoSm/dac.jpg)

Cold and out of the box and without the benefit of the wyred4sound usb recovery, it is fully competitive with the Meridian Direct DAC I was using. I am hearing little details in my test tracks obscured by the other dac. If I had one gripe it is a bit lacking in bass, but maybe that's just from not having the Wyred4Sound in the chain or because it has not broken in yet.  Sounds very smooth but detailed.

Anyway, this is a no brainer, especially for the low price! Too early to tell how this will ultimately sound, but so far (after just 20 minutes of listening) I am liking what I am hearing.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on November 27, 2017, 09:56:43 PM
The DAC just arrived from France!  :thumb:

(https://preview.ibb.co/m0zoSm/dac.jpg)

Cold and out of the box and without the benefit of the wyred4sound usb recovery, it is fully competitive with the Meridian Direct DAC I was using. I am hearing little details in my test tracks obscured by the other dac. If I had one gripe it is a bit lacking in bass, but maybe that's just from not having the Wyred4Sound in the chain or because it has not broken in yet.  Sounds very smooth but detailed.

Anyway, this is a no brainer, especially for the low price! Too early to tell how this will ultimately sound, but so far (after just 20 minutes of listening) I am liking what I am hearing.


What a great deal for you! Glad it’s sounding good. Do let us know more when you have some hours on it.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 17, 2017, 09:37:27 PM
Update:

It's been approximately 3 weeks and maybe more than 175 hours of running in the Starting Point NOS dac. Here are some observations after doing a quick A>B test with the Meridian Direct I was previously using:

Now, if this is how a very modestly priced 'NOS' dac sounds. It boggles my mind how a more expensive (Border Patrol, Metrum, DB Audio Labs, etc) one will sound. :shock:

I've read so many criticisms of NOS dacs by engineers and lay people alike before actually trying one. Every expert claims that NOS dacs measure worse and are antiquated, obsolete, and are easily outmeasured by OS dacs. Having no subjective experience about a particular design and product and simply relying on measurements isn't the way to go it seems.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on December 18, 2017, 08:18:15 AM
Update:

It's been approximately 3 weeks and maybe more than 175 hours of running in the Starting Point NOS dac. Here are some observations after doing a quick A>B test with the Meridian Direct I was previously using:

  • The Meridian has more kick in the bass and more extension in treble, however the Starting Point dac sounds more natural and balanced - I always found fault with vocals with the Meridian
  • As a result of (maybe an un-exaggerated bass(?)or treble response, I am hearing nuances in vocals and other midrange instruments, more detail and texture in instruments in general
  • Listening to the snare drum on Nikki Yanofsky's 'A Tisket a Tasket Live', I could hear a more natural snare sound. On the intro, the marching drum pattern's can be heard better. This sounds bloated and unnatural on the Meridian 
  • every single recording I have with vocals sounds better and more natural - I am able to hear nuances such as vibrato, held notes, reverb,etc. better
  • everything sounds less digital (hard-core, objectivist, engineering types will scoff and say the sound is rolled-off and old-fashioned!  :)
  • sound output seems lower, so I have to turn up the volume a bit more
Now, if this is how a very modestly priced 'NOS' dac sounds. It boggles my mind how a more expensive (Border Patrol, Metrum, DB Audio Labs, etc) one will sound. :shock:

I've read so many criticisms of NOS dacs by engineers and lay people alike before actually trying one. Every expert claims that NOS dacs measure worse and are antiquated, obsolete, and are easily outmeasured by OS dacs. Having no subjective experience about a particular design and product and simply relying on measurements isn't the way to go it seems.

Glad you posted. I was curious how things were going with this dac. I don’t know anything about the Meridian dac you have, so I’d appreciate more info on that as to features and pricing. Are you considering buying one of the NOS dacs you mentioned?
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: rollo on December 18, 2017, 09:20:12 AM
   For NOS  DAC's the one to get is EAD or MSB. For the latest in in galvanic isolation with optologic technology, NO CHIP SET would be Aqua Acoustic Quality La Scala. Uses a pair of 12AT7 that are NOT set sideways. Ya want your tubes straight up.
If ya want to try a Promitheous transformer coupled  DAC with NOS chip I have one that serverd me well for many a year.



charles
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 18, 2017, 09:35:57 PM
   
If ya want to try a Promitheous transformer coupled  DAC with NOS chip I have one that serverd me well for many a year.


Charles, Yes I saw this model. Unfortunately, I came across this after buying the one I have now. The tubed version looks very interesting.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 18, 2017, 10:00:39 PM

Glad you posted. I was curious how things were going with this dac. I don’t know anything about the Meridian dac you have, so I’d appreciate more info on that as to features and pricing. Are you considering buying one of the NOS dacs you mentioned?

Nick, the Direct or Director (US version) sells for $700 new. I got mine at half the price. It was an upgrade from the aging Parasound Z-dac I had in terms of more detail retrieval, better transparency, and especially dynamic contrast, but long term listening proved fatiguing to  my ears. Maybe it is only giving me what is on the recording, as I listen to a lot of badly recorded pop music.

It upsamples everything to 24/ 88 and can go up to 192. https://www.meridian-audio.com/media/5601/direct-data-sheet.pdf (https://www.meridian-audio.com/media/5601/direct-data-sheet.pdf).  Clean, clear sound in keeping with the Meridian house sound(?) (from hearing other Meridian products), but this is more a budget Meridian. It doesn't do MQA like the smaller explorer. It is USB powered but you have to use a wal-wart if you want to use SPDIF or coaxial.  I was able to coax better sound through it by running a Wyred4Sound usb recovery.  Exciting sound, but maybe too hi-fi(?) sounding. I've read other users accusing Meridian products of sounding analytical or clinical in general.*  I wish I read his about this before parting with my money.  :duh   

As for the other NOS dacs...I very much want to try them all - but mine wallet doth protest too much!!!  :lol:  I've been saving up for a proper rig to replace the computer-based system I have at present. Maybe an SOTM, Sony Hap server or the Auralic mini?

*This quote came from Paul McGowan himself of PS Audio." I have heard many a Meridian DAC and honestly I wouldn’t have one of them in my listening room – their sound is just so sterile–clinical actually..." from: http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/mqa-support-within-the-directstream-dac/

Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on December 19, 2017, 07:24:13 AM


Paul,
That clinical, analytical sound is what I’m striving to avoid as I’m working on rebuilding my system.
I have the Auralic Mini that you mentioned. It’s a very good and inexpensive product. I bought a dedicated power supply for it. Their DS Lightning app works quite well, although I have been using Roon instead. My dac budget will be somewhat limited depending on what I can get for my Antelope Gold.
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: StereoNut on December 19, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
Wow! This Border Patrol one looks special. Gotta save up and upgrade from my el cheapo equipment!!

I'm interested at this one from MHDT Labs :

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/551c5a82e4b0c1e6d1556b74/57a8a7d1b8a79bb93664bd1d/591dc8a5f7e0abb8563b9ddf/1495124135413/mhdtsto.jpg)

Its got a tube and a glass front panel which reminds me of DNM amps.

What if your name isn't B U R T ...???  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SN
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 19, 2017, 08:46:05 PM
Wow! This Border Patrol one looks special. Gotta save up and upgrade from my el cheapo equipment!!

I'm interested at this one from MHDT Labs :

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/551c5a82e4b0c1e6d1556b74/57a8a7d1b8a79bb93664bd1d/591dc8a5f7e0abb8563b9ddf/1495124135413/mhdtsto.jpg)

Its got a tube and a glass front panel which reminds me of DNM amps.

What if your name isn't B U R T ...???  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SN

BART then? I had to find out on their website what the acronym meant!  :thumb: An odd cosmetic decision given the otherwise nice looks of the unit, don't you think?
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 19, 2017, 08:58:48 PM


Paul,
That clinical, analytical sound is what I’m striving to avoid as I’m working on rebuilding my system.
I have the Auralic Mini that you mentioned. It’s a very good and inexpensive product. I bought a dedicated power supply for it. Their DS Lightning app works quite well, although I have been using Roon instead. My dac budget will be somewhat limited depending on what I can get for my Antelope Gold.
Nick

Hi NIck,

Yes. Best to stay away from Meridian. I already paired the Direct dac with my Bottlehead crack and an RCA 6as7 tube (a lush and round sounding tube) and still the midrange bothers me.  In the thread I mentioned they're saying that Meridian dacs might sound wonderful - if processed with MQA (another can of worms). For some reason they abandoned MQA support with the DIrect but not for he smaller Explorer dac.

A few questions about your Aualic:

What storage device are you using with it? I read that you can install an HDD internally?
How does the stock on-board dac sound?
What power supply did you get for it? I've seen some very good ones such as the sBooster but  these cost more than the Aries itself.

I am looking for an all-in-one solution so I can get rid of the computer entirely. 

Paul
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on December 19, 2017, 09:40:52 PM


Paul,
That clinical, analytical sound is what I’m striving to avoid as I’m working on rebuilding my system.
I have the Auralic Mini that you mentioned. It’s a very good and inexpensive product. I bought a dedicated power supply for it. Their DS Lightning app works quite well, although I have been using Roon instead. My dac budget will be somewhat limited depending on what I can get for my Antelope Gold.
Nick

Hi NIck,

Yes. Best to stay away from Meridian. I already paired the Direct dac with my Bottlehead crack and an RCA 6as7 tube (a lush and round sounding tube) and still the midrange bothers me.  In the thread I mentioned they're saying that Meridian dacs might sound wonderful - if processed with MQA (another can of worms). For some reason they abandoned MQA support with the DIrect but not for he smaller Explorer dac.

A few questions about your Aualic:

What storage device are you using with it? I read that you can install an HDD internally?
How does the stock on-board dac sound?
What power supply did you get for it? I've seen some very good ones such as the sBooster but  these cost more than the Aries itself.

I am looking for an all-in-one solution so I can get rid of the computer entirely. 

Paul

Paul,
I use a 500 G usb external drive. Just plug it in. You can use an internal drive and I have one laying around somewhere, but that’s for another day. It’s been ages, but the stock dac sounded pretty good. But I ordered the Auralic and the Mojo Audio power supply at the same time and basically just broke those in together. I paid too much for the Mojo ps...over $500, but don’t tell anybody 🤫
Yes, I am prone to overkill. But it’s a wonderful combo. I looked at the s booster, but frankly didn’t care for the look of it. You could probably get a reasonably priced power supply, but I really can’t recommend something. Maybe some of the guys can chime in.
I think the Mini needs about 16 volts, but that’s just from memory.
When I get around to the new dac, the Border Patrol and dB Audio Labs will be at the top of the list....assuming there’s enough money left......
Nick
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: malloy on December 20, 2017, 11:04:03 PM
Nick,

Alright! Do tell us what dac you decide on. I'd go for the Border Patrol and a new music server - but my coffers have become empty as of late!  ](*,) 

Paul
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: Nick B on December 21, 2017, 07:25:27 AM
Nick,

Alright! Do tell us what dac you decide on. I'd go for the Border Patrol and a new music server - but my coffers have become empty as of late!  ](*,) 

Paul

Will do, Paul.
Title: Re: Affordable Nos Dacs - Ross Martin, Teradak
Post by: rollo on December 23, 2017, 05:03:09 PM
I have an old Sonic Frontiers Assem ?? If ya want I can send it to ya to play with.


charles