Author Topic: Where do you guys need help?  (Read 11458 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2017, 06:21:30 PM »
Good post. The area of A/B tests has always interested me. Compared to many of you..musicians, designers etc I'm inexperienced in that regard. When I'm in a group or have a musician friend next to me for example, there's a psychological component of sometimes trying to hear what "they" hear. As my brain then gets a bit flustered trying to hear what is obvious or claimed to be obvious, I don't respond as well.
My listening is best focused in a safe, familiar environment like my home where I have as much time as I need to discern differences. If I need to repeat a song a number of times or live with a new or changing component for as long as i need, that works best for me.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline topround

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2017, 07:30:25 PM »
Nick,
No one has golden ears, that is not real.
We all have golden ears.
I trained my ears by doing exactly what you are doing, I would A/B tubes, caps, power cords , cables with the same track over and over again ,,over days, eventually you ears learn to hear what you are looking for. Once you get it it stays with you , you will get it , at other systems very quickly.
We train ourselves to critique everything we hear, analyzing it.

then one day you don't care so much and just enjoy the music,,,its evolutionary, but you still have the skills ,you just use them differently
the one rule in this game is to be honest, once you learn that you have become enlightened.

A friend once joked , the two rules of audio.
1) No ones system sounds as good as their own..
2) and no one likes the way their system sounds..

funny but true in so many ways, sort of reflects the insecure nature of audiophiles.
not a critique of us audiophlles but just a reflection
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline dBe

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 09:28:05 PM »
WOW!  What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot.  Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.

A couple of observations.  First, the Altmann page.  Ohmygosh, is he exactly right about guitars.  Years ago I had a '61 Les Paul, the first year of the SG body style.  Like a moron I traded it off for a '59 Telethat I subsequently sold.  Both of those guitars just sang.  Tone with sustain for days.  I still have a '64 ES-330 and it sounds amazing with those old school P90's.

Back to the point.  I have a Japanese '61 LP clone and a couple of newer Teles.  None of them sound anywhere near as good as the ones finished with nitro.  A project for fall is to take the Tokai '61 and strip all of the poly off and lay down a very thin finish with nitro.  Easy to do for me.  It didn't cost very much, the pickups are great (not stock), the neck is much better for my huge handa and it is very light.  I am building another Tele style for slide that has a body I cut from western red cedar.  I'll give the body and neck one coat of TruOil sealer (very, very thin and then shoot about 4 coats of clear nitro, instead of the 10-15 that was the old school way.  Alcohol based aniline dyes with NO grain filler.  The newer grain fillers use clay instead of powdered fish scale like in wayward times.  I have finished several guitars with this method for friends and that finish gets raves for tone.

Next, I totally agree with Topround.  Golden ears?  No.  Trained years, absolutely!  My listening rant always stresses to learn to ignore the notes.  Even a cheapie computer can get the notes mostly right.  What is hard is the attack and then spaces between the notes.  That is how to listen. 

Many years ago I participated in a TDK metal tape vs. records listening test.  I identified the tape 10/10 because I had been taught how to listen down to the noise floor.  It was easy.  Tape hiss, even with Dolby instead of surface noise.  Often it is not what is there, but what isn't.

Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2017, 12:02:16 AM »
Thanks guys. Well, then, I'll keep doing what I'm doing! I have some old test discs someplace from Stereophile and maybe Chesky that tell me what a good system should be doing. My systems have always passed those tests.  But, what would really help me is a disc that demonstrates tone, signal, room abnormalities, etc. In other words, a demonstration that says "this is proper and this is not"
I've described this poorly I know, but I'm at a loss to describe it a bit better.
If there's such a disc out there, I'd like to know about it.
Thanks,
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline steve

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2017, 04:39:49 PM »
WOW!  What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot.  Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.

Well we can't have that dBe. The shock is just too great, so I am calling myself an idiot. So there. 

Cheers

Steve
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:47:32 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline P.I.

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2017, 01:07:25 PM »
WOW!  What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot.  Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.

Well we can't have that dBe. The shock is just too great, so I am calling myself an idiot. So there. 

Cheers

Steve
Since I tend to be an outspoken moron, we'll get along just great  :thumb:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline dflee

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2017, 02:32:20 PM »
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline dBe

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2017, 05:26:02 PM »
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don
That's OK, Nit.  We all have our place in history.

Dim

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2017, 06:36:17 PM »
Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE!  REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty

Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2017, 10:43:31 PM »
Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE!  REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty

Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline BobM

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2017, 04:28:57 AM »
I agree with Topround. I was in a state of tweaking and DIY'ing for about 2-3 years. I used to solder in a new cap and sit and listen critically. Yes, I trained my ears to hear everything from bass bloat to shrill highs to soundstaging and etc. It was not a pleasant way to listen, but it was what was necessary to A-B my changes.

I also found that making a change and listening wasn't enough. You have to be able to back out the change and go back to what was there originally before you could truly ascertain the benefits of that change. So A-B-A testing. Not all changes, regardless of how much you spend, are good ones.

I finally got to a place where I was tired of all that critical listening and now I just listen and enjoy what I have. That "nervosa" is essentially gone, but then again, there are years and years of tweaking behind me to get me to that point.

So I guess it is a process. You have to go through that crazy stage to get to the more relaxed one. Or maybe it's just a maturity that we can reach at some point where we say enough is enough, now let me relax and love the fruits of my labor.

Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2017, 05:04:22 AM »
If you have a little more time you can listen subconsciously. You just listen to music for fun, and you will notice things about the sound that annoy you, write them down. If it doesn't appear again then it's just you getting used to a change and the annoyance fades away with familiarity. If it gets worse and you start noticing it all the time and it doesn't eventually fade out then it's something to work on or upgrade.

If you listen excitedly to an upgrade for a day or two, then find you're not listening at all, have no desire to listen, then could be your change killed it and you need to put  it back the way it was and try again.

Point being, if you tell your subconscious to tune the system, it will, by informing you of needed changes through feelings and noticing subtle things that you might not have heard before. In the end, it's the subconscious that listens and does everything anyway, it is what you're trying to "please." Music hastens alpha brain waves which open the door between conscious mind and subconscious which is where the creation of our lives happens. Listening to music isn't just for fun, although the action of creation is the funnest thing you can do.

Pleasuring up the sound with yummy distortion like tubes, paper cones, vinyl, transformers, etc allows the music to work that much more powerfully to induce alpha and even theta brainwaves, with practice, thus making imagination and prayer done during listening 1000 times more powerful in creating your world. Pay attention to the feelings and hunches you have about your system. Going for extreme detail and low distortion reinforces beta brainwaves, which pull you away from alpha. To each his own, we all use the stereo for different purpose. Some to get into alpha, some to avoid it.  The room acoustic if understood and used to your advantage can beautify the sound to hasten and deepen trance alpha state. Read Floyd Toole's book before you go plastering the walls with FG to kill the beautiful reverb in the name of lowering distortion.

OmniMic is a nice and easy measuring system, with USB mic, software by Liberty Instruments (Bill Waslo) and support on PE forum and diyaudio.com for $300.

Offline Nick B

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2017, 08:50:16 AM »
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline steve

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2017, 08:26:37 PM »
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now

Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?

Cheers

Steve
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:38:08 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline steve

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Re: Where do you guys need help?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2017, 08:34:39 PM »
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don

We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me.  :rofl:

Cheers

Steve
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:36:55 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers