AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: rollo on January 22, 2019, 10:21:37 AM

Title: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 22, 2019, 10:21:37 AM
   Over the years I have owned some very well respected preamps. Klyne SK5A, Loesch & Weisner, Audible Illusions, Audio Research SP6 and SP9, Dodd, Music First [ passive], Promithius [ passive], Miracle Audio and Wytech Opal. Some great company there.
   All did their job very well and offered different qualities. Well take all those great qualities put them together and what do you have. You have the Lamm LL2.1 hybrid preamp. A two box affair with tubed power supply and SS output.
  I cannot tell ya enough how much more music in such a natural way this preamp produces. The small cues of real sound, the inflections, detail, harmonics, decay of notes and sheer dynamics with bass that will shock you.
  Truly state of the art and priced accordingly. If you can swing it don't look back get one. I am smitten.  :drool: :thumb:


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 22, 2019, 08:57:22 PM
   Over the years I have owned some very well respected preamps. Klyne SK5A, Loesch & Weisner, Audible Illusions, Audio Research SP6 and SP9, Dodd, Music First [ passive], Promithius [ passive], Miracle Audio and Wytech Opal. Some great company there.
   All did their job very well and offered different qualities. Well take all those great qualities put them together and what do you have. You have the Lamm LL2.1 hybrid preamp. A two box affair with tubed power supply and SS output.
  I cannot tell ya enough how much more music in such a natural way this preamp produces. The small cues of real sound, the inflections, detail, harmonics, decay of notes and sheer dynamics with bass that will shock you.
  Truly state of the art and priced accordingly. If you can swing it don't look back get one. I am smitten.  :drool: :thumb:


charles

That’s some very excellent gear, Charles.  Was wondering what the retail is on that unit? 15k?
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: etcarroll on January 23, 2019, 11:32:44 AM
Charles -

The Lamm LL2.1 is the single box unit for aprox $8k.

I think you mean the Lamm L2.1 - (1 less 'L') - which is the 2 box unit for aprox $26k.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Triode Pete on January 23, 2019, 11:41:24 AM
This is better!

(https://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/L2_Preamp_Front_Angle_1200_675.png)
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 23, 2019, 05:10:21 PM
This is better!

(https://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/L2_Preamp_Front_Angle_1200_675.png)

Geez, Pete, that’s quite a compliment to Vinnie. I somewhat recall you having had the the L & W, right?
And for price comparison purposes, here’s Vinnie’s homepage for the L2
https://www.vinnierossi.com/l2-signature-preamplifier/
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 23, 2019, 05:10:59 PM
Charles -

The Lamm LL2.1 is the single box unit for aprox $8k.

I think you mean the Lamm L2.1 - (1 less 'L') - which is the 2 box unit for aprox $26k.

Thanks for the info
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Triode Pete on January 23, 2019, 06:05:43 PM
This is better!

(https://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/L2_Preamp_Front_Angle_1200_675.png)

Geez, Pete, that’s quite a compliment to Vinnie. I somewhat recall you having had the the L & W, right?
And for price comparison purposes, here’s Vinnie’s homepage for the L2
https://www.vinnierossi.com/l2-signature-preamplifier/

Hey Nick,
After living with and listening to Vinnie's new L2 Signature Preamp for 8 days (4 days at RMAF and 4 days at the NYAS), I knew it was very special and put it on my "Wish List"... Vinnie hand delivered a fully-loaded one to me last month... What sound... and a Triode Tube swappers dream... can take a ton of different directly-heated triode varieties... 300B, 2A3, 45, PX4, 101D, 205D, and SV811...

Yeah, the Loesch & Wiesner is great... but this one's a bit better overall... Triodes Rule!

Charles - only busting' your bullocks! You know, "Mary had a little Lamm"... :rofl:

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 23, 2019, 07:53:20 PM
This is better!

(https://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/L2_Preamp_Front_Angle_1200_675.png)

Geez, Pete, that’s quite a compliment to Vinnie. I somewhat recall you having had the the L & W, right?
And for price comparison purposes, here’s Vinnie’s homepage for the L2
https://www.vinnierossi.com/l2-signature-preamplifier/

Hey Nick,
After living with and listening to Vinnie's new L2 Signature Preamp for 8 days (4 days at RMAF and 4 days at the NYAS), I knew it was very special and put it on my "Wish List"... Vinnie hand delivered a fully-loaded one to me last month... What sound... and a Triode Tube swappers dream... can take a ton of different directly-heated triode varieties... 300B, 2A3, 45, PX4, 101D, 205D, and SV811...

Yeah, the Loesch & Wiesner is great... but this one's a bit better overall... Triodes Rule!

Charles - only busting' your bullocks! You know, "Mary had a little Lamm"... :rofl:

Cheers,
Pete

Why am I not surprised that “Triodes Rule”?!   :thumb:
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 24, 2019, 08:24:19 AM
Charles -

The Lamm LL2.1 is the single box unit for aprox $8k.

I think you mean the Lamm L2.1 - (1 less 'L') - which is the 2 box unit for aprox $26k.


  Thanks "Typo" Yes $26,590 is the list price.

charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 24, 2019, 08:33:01 AM
  Vinnie makes a VG  preamp, but it ain't no Lamm sorry.  Only a bit better than L&W ? The Lamm is way better. So better is better than better. New and improved. Better is better.  :lol: :rofl:  So what cables are you using ? I can recommend some excellent ones.  :rofl: :rofl: Oh just breaking your balls  :thumb: Fun fun fun.
 Quote " The L2.1 reference belongs to a select club of line preamps that are capable of serving up an edgeless organic whole. It is a true reference in every sense of the word"


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Triode Pete on January 24, 2019, 09:24:01 AM
    Only a bit better than L&W ?
 Quote " The L2.1 reference belongs to a select club of line preamps that are capable of serving up an edgeless organic whole. It is a true reference in every sense of the word"

charles

You had a "FrankenSchwartz" L&W, not the real deal I own... in fact, John Wiesner's personal one that I coerced out of his home... LOL!

I'd say both preamps (Vlad's & Vinnie's) are reference-quality!

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Folsom on January 24, 2019, 11:58:08 AM
Lamm would be better with a few modifications. Their potentiometers are trash, for example.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 24, 2019, 12:12:32 PM
    Only a bit better than L&W ?
 Quote " The L2.1 reference belongs to a select club of line preamps that are capable of serving up an edgeless organic whole. It is a true reference in every sense of the word"

charles

You had a "FrankenSchwartz" L&W, not the real deal I own... in fact, John Wiesner's personal one that I coerced out of his home... LOL!

I'd say both preamps (Vlad's & Vinnie's) are reference-quality!

Cheers,
Pete


    Not so if you recall John W. Un frankenschwartzed mine and made it like his own.  That is what I paid big money to get done. Yes they both make reference quality components just different. I would say Vinnie has a great start but not the history of design accomplishments of Vladimir. In time knowing Vinnie I expect him catching up and receiving the accolades of Lamm products over the years. Viva la preamps!


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 24, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Lamm would be better with a few modifications. Their potentiometers are trash, for example.


Really, stepped TKD  trash ? It is the whole sum of parts not one part. With no more than .03% distortion overall, that .03% must be the TKD then.  :duh BTW both Kondo and Audio Note use them as well.

charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: etcarroll on January 24, 2019, 12:53:28 PM
Geez, do you 2 need a room to have a slap fight?

I'd love to own any of these units, but being unemployed precludes any new purchases.

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 24, 2019, 01:05:43 PM
Geez, do you 2 need a room to have a slap fight?

I'd love to own any of these units, but being unemployed precludes any new purchases.


At least it’s light-hearted talk unlike the crazy stuff that I read occasionally on other forums  :roll:
Yes, I’d take either one  :X
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: tmazz on January 24, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
……. being unemployed precludes any new purchases.

That's not what the guy at the record store told me...…. 8)
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: S Clark on January 24, 2019, 02:54:58 PM
I'd sure love it if I was a retired CEO instead of a retired physics teacher... then I could justify a $26 000 preamp.  But I can't.  However,  I do have a world class unit, and they're  the mainstay of my systems... a pair of Dodds.   And I know a reviewer that just kicked his LIO pre aside and replaced it with a Dodd. 
How many top line units can be had for about $1200 used? 
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Folsom on January 24, 2019, 03:53:13 PM
Lamm would be better with a few modifications. Their potentiometers are trash, for example.


Really, stepped TKD  trash ? It is the whole sum of parts not one part. With no more than .03% distortion overall, that .03% must be the TKD then.  :duh BTW both Kondo and Audio Note use them as well.

charles

They are all stepped? If they are individual resistors that’s ok. I thought they were regular pots (maybe with stepping) that have the old ring of plastic as all pots do.. not stepped attenuator.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: P.I. on January 24, 2019, 04:05:41 PM
I'm late to the party and I absolutely disagree.  POWER is the heart of the system.  Without power ya' got nuthin'!

The front end (preamp) is the brains of the system.

Just sayin".   :thumb:
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 24, 2019, 04:08:13 PM
I'd sure love it if I was a retired CEO instead of a retired physics teacher... then I could justify a $26 000 preamp.  But I can't.  However,  I do have a world class unit, and they're  the mainstay of my systems... a pair of Dodds.   And I know a reviewer that just kicked his LIO pre aside and replaced it with a Dodd. 
How many top line units can be had for about $1200 used?

I knew the Dodds had a great reputation, but yours is an additional endorsement. I don’t think the Dodd’s are remote capable. Can you advise?
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: etcarroll on January 24, 2019, 04:40:32 PM
Interesting - so are you running a standalone pre on each channel?
And are your amps monoblocks?

Just curious.

EDIT: never mind, just read your equipment list and answered my own question - doh! :duh

Changed out amp and speakers in last year and happy with source gear, so pre amp may be next thing to change.

Once I'm employed of course.

And zip it Tom!

I'd sure love it if I was a retired CEO instead of a retired physics teacher... then I could justify a $26 000 preamp.  But I can't.  However,  I do have a world class unit, and they're  the mainstay of my systems... a pair of Dodds.   And I know a reviewer that just kicked his LIO pre aside and replaced it with a Dodd. 
How many top line units can be had for about $1200 used?
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: HAL on January 24, 2019, 04:44:49 PM
Yes, the Dodd preamps and battery buffer have a remote volume control.

I have both here.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: P.I. on January 24, 2019, 04:52:50 PM
My Dodd pre is awesome.  It is dead quiet (duh), transparent and extremely dynamic.  I've built and tried a dozen or so pres and this, along with my much modified Cary SL50B are stone winners when it comes to driving demanding amps.  My Dodd has a remote that is as good looking as the preamp.

Lord, do I miss Gary.  A great friend gone way too early...  😣
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: S Clark on January 24, 2019, 08:48:27 PM
Interesting - so are you running a standalone pre on each channel?
And are your amps monoblocks?

Just curious.

EDIT: never mind, just read your equipment list and answered my own question - doh! :duh

Changed out amp and speakers in last year and happy with source gear, so pre amp may be next thing to change.

Once I'm employed of course.

And zip it Tom!

I'd sure love it if I was a retired CEO instead of a retired physics teacher... then I could justify a $26 000 preamp.  But I can't.  However,  I do have a world class unit, and they're  the mainstay of my systems... a pair of Dodds.   And I know a reviewer that just kicked his LIO pre aside and replaced it with a Dodd. 
How many top line units can be had for about $1200 used?

Actually, ET, I have a Dodd preamp in each of two systems.  One in my main living room, and one in a smaller den/library.  One controls a Moscode 401HR and GR-Research LS9's and the other controls a Folsom (warm months) and Dodd 6L6GC amp (cold months) driving a pair of GR  X-Statiks
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 24, 2019, 09:21:36 PM
Yes, the Dodd preamps and battery buffer have a remote volume control.

I have both here.

Thanks for that, Rich. Something to think about in the future, although my APR 204 is pretty good.
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 25, 2019, 07:54:11 AM
  I have two Dodd units one with 6H30 [1] and the other 12bh7 [1] I believe. Both excellent, I would sell if any interest. Miss Gary as well.
  Nick your correct the Audio Hungary APR204 is no slouch. The MM section alone is worth the price. Headphone amp as well. An overachiever for sure. Right up there with the big boys. It was my reference before Lamm bit me.


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 25, 2019, 07:59:31 AM
Geez, do you 2 need a room to have a slap fight?

I'd love to own any of these units, but being unemployed precludes any new purchases.

  Nah Pete and I just having some fun. He is a teaser and great friend. No harm.


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: etcarroll on January 25, 2019, 10:55:04 AM
I know that Charles, and for those maybe new to the forum, I've known Pete and Charles for some time and enjoyed both their company many times, and am a proud owner of TWL power cables.

I may have to visit with you one day Charles when I have the funds to upgrade my pre.

Gene
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 25, 2019, 12:15:31 PM
I know that Charles, and for those maybe new to the forum, I've known Pete and Charles for some time and enjoyed both their company many times, and am a proud owner of TWL power cables.

I may have to visit with you one day Charles when I have the funds to upgrade my pre.

Gene
[/quote

  Gene, Just come anyway. Your welcome anytime no purchase required just good times. A two Man rave.
 

charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 28, 2019, 09:07:06 AM
Lamm would be better with a few modifications. Their potentiometers are trash, for example.


Really, stepped TKD  trash ? It is the whole sum of parts not one part. With no more than .03% distortion overall, that .03% must be the TKD then.  :duh BTW both Kondo and Audio Note use them as well.

charles

I agree Charles, TKDs are great, whether stepped or not. Nobles are also excellent. My 11A used both Nobles and TKDs and the output was a perfect reproduction of the input signal via special setup listening tests, so obviously there were no problems with the TKDs or Noble volume controls. Advantage is continous adjustment as well.

DeHavilland Ultra verve was also a near perfect preamplifier (don't know the NOS tubes she was using though). Herron is also a superior quality preamplifier. One would be wise to strongly consider these.

--------

If I can tout my own products, such as the 10A line preamplifier, which was one of only three listed in the Bound for Sound "Components of Merit". Here is what Rich Weiner (BFS) had to say.

Rich Weiner: "The SAS 10A is the most musically truthful preamp I'm aware of, and I will expand that statement by listing some of the line stages I've had in my otherwise very stable system: Herron VTSP-1, VAC CPA III, VAC Standard LE, Audio Research 3A, ARC 8, ARC 10, Mark Levinson ML-1, Levinson ML-7, Levinson ML-10A, Original Aronov PS-100 and Musical Concepts modification, Nagra PL-P, Beveridge RM-1, Rappaport, Placette Passive - there are more, but you get the point. Until I got the 10A, I struggled to make the other components live up to their potential."

He used 15 grand 300b monoblocks.

The 10A has been Rich's reference preamp for over 4 years. In fact, he was able to hear the recording studio wall reflections in some recordings which he had never heard before. I was there and saw his and his wife's amazement. That is true inner detail, not artificial by using distortion.

However, Richard and Martin both purchased 11A preamplifiers as their reference preamplifier, and still have them because they were so perfect. By the way Bound for Sound took no advertising.

Here are a couple of other personal reviews of the 11A.

Graham: "I took the B11a into a shop in Auckland. I know the owner fairly well, and we agree that Shindo make some wonderful pieces of kit. (I wasn't looking for a change!) Almost immediately we started listening, he said "That's really fast!" We also agreed that the B11a was much clearer, making the Shindo Aurieges sound slow, muddy, and coloured."

Bob: "Hey guys. . .if anyone's interested, I'm selling my Tram 2 preamp since my SAS B11A is so awesome...." (Tram 2 uses 45, 2A3s)

Oh, the 10A was going for $1895.00 and the 11A was going for $2995.00, so no breaking of the bank. Very rarely, I have seen used 10A for $800.00, if you can find one for sale.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on January 28, 2019, 09:10:33 AM
  Steve, in with great company. Never heard your Preamp however have certainly heard of IT. Good is as good does.


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 28, 2019, 09:35:13 AM
  Steve, in with great company. Never heard your Preamp however have certainly heard of IT. Good is as good does.

charles

Charley, except my 11A is near perfect reproduction of the signal in all aspects. The others can't say that, only approximations.

Bernie: "I have also tested the 11A in terms of comparing the sound from my excellent cd source directly to amps versus inserting the 11A pre between. I could detect no difference whatsoever.... So, my two cents: the SAS preamps are stellar – with my 11A I hear no compression or any other alteration of the originating signal."

That is why one virtually never sees a used one of mine for sale. Mine also has a variable control so the preamplifier matches to the different amplifier input impedances (Z), down to 25k ohms amplifier input Z.

By contrast, other preamplifiers will either become bass heavy or bass light, depending upon the amplifier's input Z.

Mine is the only preamplifier that alleviates the problem.

Others do have me beat on aesthetics though. But if a $50,000 preamplifier doesn't sound right, that is a lot of money for some looks. But to each his own.

cheers

steve

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: P.I. on January 28, 2019, 10:09:25 AM
Geez, do you 2 need a room to have a slap fight?

I'd love to own any of these units, but being unemployed precludes any new purchases.

  Nah Pete and I just having some fun. He is a teaser and great friend. No harm.


charles
:thumb:
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 28, 2019, 03:47:52 PM
One other comment that I think needs addressing.

How many times have you heard that accuracy was not emotional? Ok, so when was the last time you heard a live instrument/band/event that was not emotional? Yet it was accurate because you were there.
 
Accurate was first used to describe how solid state sounded years ago. But we all know that listening to a live instrument/band is "accurate" and emotional. So they were describing the problems of solid state at that time.

So if you want emotion, either listen to live music, or a system that accurately reproduces those emotions, live instruments/band/event. You will be glad you did.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: mresseguie on January 28, 2019, 06:58:32 PM
Steve,

I ‘discovered’ your preamps a good six months to a year before I bought my D Sachs Model 2. If you had still been offering them for sale, I would have been an owner. I’ll likely never know which is better - and I’m delighted with the Model 2 - but I do wonder about the 11A.

Michael
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 29, 2019, 10:26:55 AM
Steve,

I 'discovered’ your preamps a good six months to a year before I bought my D Sachs Model 2. If you had still been offering them for sale, I would have been an owner. I’ll likely never know which is better - and I’m delighted with the Model 2 - but I do wonder about the 11A.

Michael


Hi Michael,

One thing I can say with certainty is that since the 11A is perfect; the 11A would have soundly beat it in virtually all catagories, piece compared to piece. Yes, I retired some 7 years ago now. Thank you for considering Michael.

Since the 11A is completely transparent, not there so to speak, the rest of one's system dictates the overall sound. The decision then becomes if one is satisfied with the sound of their existing system, or to purchase a preamplifier in an attempting synergy to their system.

Of course, cost and aesthetics are variables to deal with.

Some years ago I participated in the Detroit AudioKarma AudioFest, along with some 45-50 other manufacturers. My room was the only one with standing room only. Some came back 3-4 times. I personally checked all the other rooms multiple times, while Barry (from Tennessee who helped out at his own expense. Owned my 11A.) took care of my room. The other rooms were virtually bare, with just one or two, if any.

A reviewer from St. Louis, who wrote for Positive Feedback, stayed in my room for an hour and wanted to write a complete review of my 11A. He only visited the AudioFest for one day, so spent a vast amount of time in my room.
I had another individual who spent the whole evening listening in the room, even though he had his own demonstration room.

Anyway, I am sorry I could not help you at that time Michael. (For others, when they hear, they believe.)

Cheers Michael and all the best.

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 29, 2019, 07:46:48 PM
Steve,

I 'discovered’ your preamps a good six months to a year before I bought my D Sachs Model 2. If you had still been offering them for sale, I would have been an owner. I’ll likely never know which is better - and I’m delighted with the Model 2 - but I do wonder about the 11A.

Michael


Hi Michael,

One thing I can say with certainty is that since the 11A is perfect; the 11A would have soundly beat it in virtually all catagories, piece compared to piece. Yes, I retired some 7 years ago now. Thank you for considering Michael.

Since the 11A is completely transparent, not there so to speak, the rest of one's system dictates the overall sound. The decision then becomes if one is satisfied with the sound of their existing system, or to purchase a preamplifier in an attempting synergy to their system.

Of course, cost and aesthetics are variables to deal with.

Some years ago I participated in the Detroit AudioKarma AudioFest, along with some 45-50 other manufacturers. My room was the only one with standing room only. Some came back 3-4 times. I personally checked all the other rooms multiple times, while Barry (from Tennessee who helped out at his own expense. Owned my 11A.) took care of my room. The other rooms were virtually bare, with just one or two, if any.

A reviewer from St. Louis, who wrote for Positive Feedback, stayed in my room for an hour and wanted to write a complete review of my 11A. He only visited the AudioFest for one day, so spent a vast amount of time in my room.
I had another individual who spent the whole evening listening in the room, even though he had his own demonstration room.

Anyway, I am sorry I could not help you at that time Michael. (For others, when they hear, they believe.)

Cheers Michael and all the best.

steve

Steve,
I think it’s quite a compliment to you that I’ve never seen a used 11A for sale  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Folsom on January 29, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
Few have seen a new one for sale either!
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 30, 2019, 07:48:32 AM
Having been a reader of Marty DeWulf’s Bound for Sound for many years....starting in the
early 90s iirc.... I became aware of the 11A many years ago and it’s listing as a Component of Exceptional Merit. Marty had a loyal following and I thought his reviews were thorough,  thoughtful and well-respected.
As I go back to those days, there were indeed new ones for sale....
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Absolutely correct Nick. I designed and manufactured preamplifiers until 2012 or 13. I certainly did not need to come out with new models year after year, like other designers, because my preamplifiers were so perfect. Thank you for the support Nick.

I deleted my response Nick.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 30, 2019, 12:19:17 PM
OK, I think I’ve had enough of these exchanges. This forum is supposed to be a fun place for interesting exchanges of opinions and information and just a fun place to hang out. I got out of management years ago and don’t want to be the administrative police here. I’ve known of Steve and SAS for well over 20 years. I know Folsom (Jeremy) from his posts here and over at AC. I’ve heard many positive comments about his products and I believe Dave speaks very highly of him as well.
So it’s great you guys are both here. But I don’t want this place to become a host for pissing matches. So cease and desist
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 30, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
A previous post has been voluntarily modified, which I appreciate.
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Triode Pete on January 30, 2019, 01:34:28 PM
Cool, Nick!!!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71qcrjHQHGL._SX355_.jpg)


Having fun,
Pete
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: James Edward on January 30, 2019, 01:55:57 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKWch_MNY0

It’s Hard To Be Humble by Mac Davis... Continuing Pete’s theme.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 30, 2019, 05:56:57 PM
Well, I loved the humble posts and can relate as I’ve had to eat humble pie on a few occasions.🥧 🥧
As to my post, maybe it was a bit strong, but life’s stressful right now and I’ll not elaborate.

So the only thing I’m wondering right now Pete is can 3 of my Alfred E Newmans beat up on one of your Muhammad Alis  8-[
Nick

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on January 30, 2019, 11:03:52 PM
Just want to let all know that I have my own forum at:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sasaudio2000/conversations/topics?guccounter=1

where one can post, and obtain real science without being falsely attack.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Triode Pete on January 31, 2019, 07:22:35 AM
Well, I loved the humble posts and can relate as I’ve had to eat humble pie on a few occasions.🥧 🥧
As to my post, maybe it was a bit strong, but life’s stressful right now and I’ll not elaborate.

So the only thing I’m wondering right now Pete is can 3 of my Alfred E Newmans beat up on one of your Muhammad Alis  8-[
Nick

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoZdH7-I-T5LFxeNBYX1TxTLFGrI_PADetbUzX_ebrmTBOyOHY)

On a serious note, wishing you much solace in your time of need, Nick...

No one needs more stress nowadays!

Peace,
Pete
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 31, 2019, 09:43:38 AM
Just want to let all know that I have my own forum at:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sasaudio2000/conversations/topics?guccounter=1

where one can post, and obtain real science without being falsely attack.

cheers

steve

Yahoo groups are great. I followed the Golden Tube Audio guys for a while
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on January 31, 2019, 10:44:15 AM
Well, I loved the humble posts and can relate as I’ve had to eat humble pie on a few occasions.🥧 🥧
As to my post, maybe it was a bit strong, but life’s stressful right now and I’ll not elaborate.

So the only thing I’m wondering right now Pete is can 3 of my Alfred E Newmans beat up on one of your Muhammad Alis  8-[
Nick

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoZdH7-I-T5LFxeNBYX1TxTLFGrI_PADetbUzX_ebrmTBOyOHY)

On a serious note, wishing you much solace in your time of need, Nick...

No one needs more stress nowadays!

Peace,
Pete

Thank you, Pete.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: toobluvr on February 01, 2019, 10:04:45 AM


Steve,
I think it’s quite a compliment to you that I’ve never seen a used 11A for sale  :thumb:
Nick

I have.   Matter of fact, if you search on audioshark.com you will see 15 sold / expired ads.

Just sayin........
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on February 01, 2019, 11:40:29 AM


Steve,
I think it’s quite a compliment to you that I’ve never seen a used 11A for sale  :thumb:
Nick

I have.   Matter of fact, if you search on audioshark.com you will see 15 sold / expired ads.

Just sayin........

Thanks for your input
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: mresseguie on February 01, 2019, 04:48:43 PM


Steve,
I think it’s quite a compliment to you that I’ve never seen a used 11A for sale  :thumb:
Nick

I have.   Matter of fact, if you search on audioshark.com you will see 15 sold / expired ads.

Just sayin........

Toobluvr,

Did you mean to type Hifishark.com?

I ask because I checked Hifishark.com a few days ago and found there had been past sales of the 11A, but the most recent one was 4+ years ago.

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on February 01, 2019, 07:41:22 PM


Steve,
I think it’s quite a compliment to you that I’ve never seen a used 11A for sale  :thumb:
Nick

I have.   Matter of fact, if you search on audioshark.com you will see 15 sold / expired ads.

Just sayin........

Please provide a link, as I performed a search of SAS Audio Labs preamplifiers, and 11A Line Preamplifier and came up empty on audioshark.com , also audioshark.org, a discussion group.

I see one 11A for sale 4 years ago on USA Audiomart.com.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: mresseguie on February 01, 2019, 07:58:03 PM
Steve,

I suspect he meant Hifishark.com. I was incorrect in my previous post about searching for the 11A. It was a search for SAS Audio Labs under the sold/expired tab that I made last week. Here's the search I just performed:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=sas+audio+labs

This link shows sold/expired in Europe:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=sas+audio+labs

I take this as a confirmation that folks do not wish to relinquish their 11A or 10A preamps very often.  :thumb:

I have instructed Hifishark to email me when (or if) an 11A appears for sale in North America.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on February 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Steve,

I suspect he meant Hifishark.com. I was incorrect in my previous post about searching for the 11A. It was a search for SAS Audio Labs under the sold/expired tab that I made last week. Here's the search I just performed:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=sas+audio+labs

This link shows sold/expired in Europe:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=sas+audio+labs

I take this as a confirmation that folks do not wish to relinquish their 11A or 10A preamps very often.  :thumb:

I have instructed Hifishark to email me when (or if) an 11A appears for sale in North America.

Hi Michael,

Looking it over, It appears to me that the same indivdual may have attempted to sell. Cannot tell for sure, what do you think? I noticed "musical stunning" in a 10A ads near the bottom, so appears multiple times from same individual.

I know of one years ago, who sold because he was down sizing, going integrated amp, which for newbies out there is both preamplifier and amplifier together.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: toobluvr on February 02, 2019, 05:27:29 AM
Yes.....typo.....I meant hifishark.com.

Not intending to sir anything up or ruffle feathers.
Simply correcting the record of an earlier misstatement.

And yes, it does look like the same 1 or 2 or 3 sellers (dunno, haven't opened all the ads) posting multiple ads in Europe.

But here are 2 ads in America, appears to be same seller:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=126535.0

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649130119-sas_audio_labs_11a/

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on February 02, 2019, 10:46:06 AM
Thanks for the latest responses. We’ve gone a bit afar from the original post and I don’t know what more would be  gained by trying to figure out how many used 11a’s have been for sale and if it might be the same seller. So let’s move on from this pls.
As with any of these great preamps, I’d love to get my hands on one and see if it could substantially elevate the performance of my system.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: S Clark on February 02, 2019, 11:26:58 AM
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Folsom on February 02, 2019, 12:28:15 PM
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.

I would say amp, too. Once gain is involved everything changes.

You can have preamps that impart a lot of character, too. And then pair them with an ultra low distortion amp (trying to be invisible), to sorta have the preamp be the heart. But I prefer a preamp that can drive amps better, so you get some improvement but it's really invisible and not lacking an ability to drive the amp. Then the amp has character and is the heart of what you want.

A preamp that's just a volume knob can't do anything to improve sound by driving an amp better. It would be pretty hard to call that a heart.



Here's an interesting example. Mola Mola. The preamp has got accolades because it doesn't impart a bunch of sonic character, just drives amps better. But the Mola Mola amps are not really cared for at all because they're lifeless in many people's opinion.
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: P.I. on February 02, 2019, 07:23:31 PM
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.
Scott,

Nope it is “power” meaning incoming AC or DC.  Both of those are awful in standard form these days.

Amps are only amps until they are energized"
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: S Clark on February 02, 2019, 09:37:11 PM
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.
Scott,

Nope it is “power” meaning incoming AC or DC.  Both of those are awful in standard form these days.

Amps are only amps until they are energized"
Well of course that's what you meant.  All the power cleaning stuff you made over the years... I just jumped to amp because that's what I thought of. 
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on February 04, 2019, 10:36:06 AM
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: P.I. on February 04, 2019, 10:56:01 AM
 
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles
:rofl:   :thumb:
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Folsom on February 04, 2019, 01:13:25 PM
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles

But with your logic how isn't it the source?
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on February 04, 2019, 01:47:33 PM
From my education and laboratory research, everything affects the sonics in a system. Yes, power is a problem
due to lack of proper filtering stages, varying voltages, including  filament voltage in tube equipment etc.

In general terms:

1) The sources, including TT and phono stage, cd players etc are in the small signal arena, 
materials, internal and extenal influences, voltages involved including filament voltages of tubes etc.

2) The line level preamplifier are involved in small signals, routing different inputs, vibration,
channel separation (such as 90+ db between channels), separation of inputs (90db or more and
with  minimal sonic degradation such as with solid state influence), voltages including filament voltages in tube
components etc.

3) The amplifier is involved with mainly larger level signals, channel separation, electrolytic capacitors, a range from minimal to complex loads called speakers etc.

4) The speaker is involved with electrical to mechanical conversion, room acoustics, a minimal to complex load etc.

Interestingly, just one poor quality part can topple a superb audio system to average or even poor sounding.
So touchy.

I am sure more could be added in terms of specifics.

cheers.

steve

Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: rollo on February 06, 2019, 08:04:23 AM
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles

But with your logic how isn't it the source?

  That would be the brains.  :duh 


charles
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on February 09, 2019, 04:55:23 PM
   "...I cannot tell ya enough how much more music in such a natural way this preamp produces. The small cues of real sound, the inflections, detail, harmonics, decay of notes and sheer dynamics with bass that will shock you...."

hey!  sounds like you just described my refurb'd and highly modded melos ma333r!   :thumb:

seriously, it is one awesome preamp.  i've only heard one other that made me think about wanting to try it in my system, and that's the ~$30k purity audio silver statement.  but why bother, it's a bit out of my price range.  did i win the lottery yet?

i'm sure others mentioned here also are fantastic, like the sas and the lamm.  i actually considered an sas years ago, but it's not full-featured enough for me.  i need at least one tape loop (two is better) and remote.

and, i dunno whether or not the "heart" is the right term for a preamp, but it certainly works for me.  i could easily swap out any other component in my system, and i'd be ok w/that.  but the preamp?  no way.  (unless, of course a lottery win nudges me to audition the purity audio.)

ymmv,

doug s.

Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on February 09, 2019, 07:43:10 PM
Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
wow, what website is that?!?  melos audio restoration was run by wil guering, who passed away more than 10 years ago.  the text on the link you posted looks like smith denver found mar's old web info and posted it there.

my preamp was upgraded by wil before he passed away, and the mod included the mark porzilli designed tube volume pot upgrade.  more recently, mark has started refurbing and modding older melos gear; i had mine done a couple of years ago; as at ~20 years old, it needed some fine tuning. the dual-mono remote volume pots, which never tracked equally and were a pita to balance, are now controlled by a single pot.  still dual mono thru the tube volume control.  the balance control now doesn't work; mark said it would only do +/-6db anyway, but it doesn't even do that.  i may or may not send it back to him for a re-do, as i don't really need the balance control, and it sounds great, and everything else has been updated/cleaned/sorted.  he even did a tube mod, which he charges $80/tube to do.  total cost for the refurb and mods was $1k.  it was money well spent, imo.  if you can find a properly operating ma333r or sha-gold-r, they are a freaking bargain for the performance offered, imo.  and the fact that mark is servicing melos again, is another benefit.

mark porzilli is a bit of an eccentric genius, imo.  besides melos, he was involved w/the design of the pipedreams speakers, and is involved w/designing scaena speakers, and the nova physics memory player 64.

doug s.

Doug,
Thanks for refreshing my memory a bit on this. I guess one of Mark’s projects is https://www.thememoryplayer.net/blank
$1,000 is quite reasonable for a refurb
Nick
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: Nick B on February 09, 2019, 09:12:10 PM
ps - i do not have the melos phono stage; only the line stage. for phono, i am using a pentagon ps-3.  i have recently gotten an audio interface mc80-l step-up transformer, which seems to have taken my low-output mc up a notch through the pentagon.  but since i've been using my daughter's empire turntable and m/m cartridge until she returns from her travels to pick it up, i haven't really given the step-up a serious workout.

doug s.

I’d never heard of a Pentagon ps3 and I only found one via Google. Another revelation from you :)
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: gjm on May 02, 2019, 03:54:16 PM
A coupla months down the line, but I have one of Steve's B11a pre-amps. Perhaps I should sort some pics so others can see just how unassuming it appears?
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on May 06, 2019, 06:28:41 PM
A coupla months down the line, but I have one of Steve's B11a pre-amps. Perhaps I should sort some pics so others can see just how unassuming it appears?

Not a bad idea gjm. I agree, it is rather unassuming; I would suspect many won't like the looks, but go ahead G.

In general, I will state Gjm has the most accurate/natural preamplifier on the planet. To maintain component to component consistency, I measured the critical parts to within 0,5%, using my Tektronix equipment. One percent tolerance allowed the sonics to vary. It took years of research to find the most accurate reproduction parts, testing etc.

The sonic accuracy is via specialized proprietary listening tests over years with dozens if not hundreds of musical selections. Others were involved in the testing as well. So however expensive the other guys are, they can only match your 11A G, not surpass the sonic quality.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: gjm on May 08, 2019, 01:53:11 AM
Some may say it's nothing to look at, but I like understated. I appreciate some of the more overtly designed kit around too, but this'll do for me.

These pics are actually from Steve's old website, but this is (I think) identical to my B11a.

With Steve's permission I might be persuaded to remove the lid and show what happens inside.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FNYYo92i3C86WvuvLktRhlfgpDW2MeaS2VlRaZGJTZ1PrbwgQ7UYqiRKcZtfxJqbIJENd3yoGBH9wzDgHCKZa0fVjdP9mXsr52gdJh4-dFAUVuOTmx32v4MFwbBK2Uc-NLiCb0vua7huthq1EpsWVWOX98HePc9IvlkpF2fHJUjEa_XdjAM9jDa-p6vYR1FwTgfSFUPC9YFI83AtBDnT6EPteFRGJGZH34dSFzWfj_PReVSKwSiBmtHBJHgKyOQSsRMdyfUVChGjYdEYKJocg4OXVAx1nOnxMm7EjjVywPJjy2WNVuHkzVJYae2pS3Ln4zd_LoFC3JHAczJzwqZFkvhfhkim-tVeG0brUt197fzcU1DWgrd8Twq46jCxjETr6ZrDCToKFnn9OLaE1nll1jyZUOBoyahJJFtdt4m77P_gWqEJjP8k2x-xDqM-ATeEsysD9rtembWQCBWwgAid1P-7lrcceQaS-vWQOkn_KM_7UdOPifbtNZlMBfiO2KMg3kl79AC2NGPUVa8zYLmUBqoM4mjZ3tM4WKk7-wthNDSBVPxXiFJhSujNy3TBhWnLFR1hO316HzPkUIn7kK4rtUfxlCTla3LbXYOAd9Dd_QqCswb_hCqxE3mNvt3hRJmx0G0eenWwKzitpLOl19HEsWCiSR6u5jQ=w791-h235-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cF3180GJiZpvVswPimIxrH-GCsgDUG0eALgrFaafwNd28-S8PnKDorR1IE-S4j-dJ3cSMkCNaxukIg9RFbq0cCPaeYqYO1ffSoqPeq9yYm2QKZVx81Du5W8mUUISt65UyIc8PFUH3Pqawg_Idr3Yms2_C7JSVxB0VtKpopouL-pcSViij8oBKO8yedqEUz30QuAUcYJz_5hMs4Xv6-_7xKTj7FFOp0QUhMMMqrXnmZ3bbQV8Gfe0YW5AfCy1nkuNhhXRLhH1-P1kiyWx7gE0NcZAkUOJFeKPEusdtFm1sijoB1x8P1argpdTsVXD-6rfGLGKT21HUzUVy5GXFZVuNqPBA_D-fpKQQOAdJOC4B5cuHEhhPmL0GMAKcUXMZdO5sV8XtXOnx39wIbRTfnd95c1cVEZvivu9tEexGKXukuCf1gwqWBuwHOAJF2dr-QRdIKiTfGRoyVvM1BOi__0TzeGOrrcJEbhwA9oP3NCW8QqIst7B8lNVPUImKkK0I0nfHRLTW8MpyBXTpOxMv-yQYd_uObJrB935ZviGW13wROIcQjhGDI5tspzxQJOlxqG10zHsHzFTe8xrpJjtHZDUyL9agUlM7mdZtLdyDWdL3K4QLVWv-M_jVPGDd7dHZjInSVy5m3hNytw2nTKSS_QQVCA6x2eQySA=w883-h321-no)
Title: Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
Post by: steve on June 25, 2019, 07:05:12 PM
Some may say it's nothing to look at, but I like understated. I appreciate some of the more overtly designed kit around too, but this'll do for me.

These pics are actually from Steve's old website, but this is (I think) identical to my B11a.

With Steve's permission I might be persuaded to remove the lid and show what happens inside.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FNYYo92i3C86WvuvLktRhlfgpDW2MeaS2VlRaZGJTZ1PrbwgQ7UYqiRKcZtfxJqbIJENd3yoGBH9wzDgHCKZa0fVjdP9mXsr52gdJh4-dFAUVuOTmx32v4MFwbBK2Uc-NLiCb0vua7huthq1EpsWVWOX98HePc9IvlkpF2fHJUjEa_XdjAM9jDa-p6vYR1FwTgfSFUPC9YFI83AtBDnT6EPteFRGJGZH34dSFzWfj_PReVSKwSiBmtHBJHgKyOQSsRMdyfUVChGjYdEYKJocg4OXVAx1nOnxMm7EjjVywPJjy2WNVuHkzVJYae2pS3Ln4zd_LoFC3JHAczJzwqZFkvhfhkim-tVeG0brUt197fzcU1DWgrd8Twq46jCxjETr6ZrDCToKFnn9OLaE1nll1jyZUOBoyahJJFtdt4m77P_gWqEJjP8k2x-xDqM-ATeEsysD9rtembWQCBWwgAid1P-7lrcceQaS-vWQOkn_KM_7UdOPifbtNZlMBfiO2KMg3kl79AC2NGPUVa8zYLmUBqoM4mjZ3tM4WKk7-wthNDSBVPxXiFJhSujNy3TBhWnLFR1hO316HzPkUIn7kK4rtUfxlCTla3LbXYOAd9Dd_QqCswb_hCqxE3mNvt3hRJmx0G0eenWwKzitpLOl19HEsWCiSR6u5jQ=w791-h235-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cF3180GJiZpvVswPimIxrH-GCsgDUG0eALgrFaafwNd28-S8PnKDorR1IE-S4j-dJ3cSMkCNaxukIg9RFbq0cCPaeYqYO1ffSoqPeq9yYm2QKZVx81Du5W8mUUISt65UyIc8PFUH3Pqawg_Idr3Yms2_C7JSVxB0VtKpopouL-pcSViij8oBKO8yedqEUz30QuAUcYJz_5hMs4Xv6-_7xKTj7FFOp0QUhMMMqrXnmZ3bbQV8Gfe0YW5AfCy1nkuNhhXRLhH1-P1kiyWx7gE0NcZAkUOJFeKPEusdtFm1sijoB1x8P1argpdTsVXD-6rfGLGKT21HUzUVy5GXFZVuNqPBA_D-fpKQQOAdJOC4B5cuHEhhPmL0GMAKcUXMZdO5sV8XtXOnx39wIbRTfnd95c1cVEZvivu9tEexGKXukuCf1gwqWBuwHOAJF2dr-QRdIKiTfGRoyVvM1BOi__0TzeGOrrcJEbhwA9oP3NCW8QqIst7B8lNVPUImKkK0I0nfHRLTW8MpyBXTpOxMv-yQYd_uObJrB935ZviGW13wROIcQjhGDI5tspzxQJOlxqG10zHsHzFTe8xrpJjtHZDUyL9agUlM7mdZtLdyDWdL3K4QLVWv-M_jVPGDd7dHZjInSVy5m3hNytw2nTKSS_QQVCA6x2eQySA=w883-h321-no)

Sure GJM, go ahead.

cheers
steve