Author Topic: Sub strategy  (Read 18126 times)

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2015, 09:58:07 AM »
Werd, have you tried putting the sub in the rear 180 degrees out of phase with the sub in the front?
Scotty

Offline Werd

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2015, 01:59:54 PM »
Werd, have you tried putting the sub in the rear 180 degrees out of phase with the sub in the front?
Scotty

Yes, i had it that way when i was running both L and R channels into the front (on the floor) and using the L - line-out  on the front sub feeding the back sub. It still was bloated in the soundstage. It wasnt until i got the idea to put the sub on my amp stand. Using Modern Jazz Quartets "Softly, In as a Morning Sunrise" -  took about 10 secs of walking bass to realize that was it. The sub walked with the mains. I knew that was it. You can't get that with bass moving along the floor. I tried for years. You need the driver in the soundstage and not the floor.

Right now with my sub on the stand i am phased into the left main with the sub and trying to get rear sub phased into the right main driver.  I think i got it as good as i am going to get it with what i can do in the back of the sub.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 02:24:46 PM by Werd »
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2015, 06:01:21 PM »
You might try using the summed input on both front and rear subs. If there are any phase differences in the bass frequencies between the left and the right channels you will have incomplete cancellation between the front and rear subs output. Also without the capability to delay the rear subs output relative to the front sub the rear sub has to be further away from the listening position than the front sub or the phase cancellation will not occur at the correct point in space.
 I have the rear sub in my system setup to cancel out the bass wave from the front about 3ft. before it impacts the rear wall behind me. The side sub to my right is canceling out the bass wave from the right channel so to speak about 1ft. before it hits the side wall.
 My remaining problem is that the both subs quit before the front mains. The front speakers are 3db down at 16Hz and the subs are quitting in the mid 30Hz. region. The one in the rear has to be re tuned so that it is flat to 20Hz. The right sub can't be altered and might be good to 32Hz. I will have to build or buy a sub for that location that is flat to 20Hz to optimize the system. It is still quite effective on 75% of the music I play with better bass definition and much better imaging and a better recreation of the spatial qualities in the recording. I might be getting 65% of what could be achieved with this approach due to my L shaped listening space and the frequency response limitations of the subs.
 The key to making this work lies in being able to use a processor to properly delay the rear subs output.
Scotty

Offline Werd

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 08:33:29 AM »
You might try using the summed input on both front and rear subs. If there are any phase differences in the bass frequencies between the left and the right channels you will have incomplete cancellation between the front and rear subs output. Also without the capability to delay the rear subs output relative to the front sub the rear sub has to be further away from the listening position than the front sub or the phase cancellation will not occur at the correct point in space.
 I have the rear sub in my system setup to cancel out the bass wave from the front about 3ft. before it impacts the rear wall behind me. The side sub to my right is canceling out the bass wave from the right channel so to speak about 1ft. before it hits the side wall.
 My remaining problem is that the both subs quit before the front mains. The front speakers are 3db down at 16Hz and the subs are quitting in the mid 30Hz. region. The one in the rear has to be re tuned so that it is flat to 20Hz. The right sub can't be altered and might be good to 32Hz. I will have to build or buy a sub for that location that is flat to 20Hz to optimize the system. It is still quite effective on 75% of the music I play with better bass definition and much better imaging and a better recreation of the spatial qualities in the recording. I might be getting 65% of what could be achieved with this approach due to my L shaped listening space and the frequency response limitations of the subs.
 The key to making this work lies in being able to use a processor to properly delay the rear subs output.
Scotty


My goal is to try and phase in the rear with the right channel. In practice i end up adjusting back into the forward sub.  I have a bad habit of reaching behind my sub looking for levels and adjusting phase by accident and i never look at the adjustment. So it's easier to phase in with the forward sub. Here is a tip, If you are trying to ohase in two subs. Lift one sub off the ground.  :lol: The phase characteristics of the two subs are far easier to point out.  If we lived closer i would let you use my Solid tech amp stand on one on your subs. That thing is as good for subs as is amps. 

I can see how a delay would tighten up the room. Out of curiosity how do your subs measure for freq response with out the QSC in the signal path? Are you running balanced or unbalanced?
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 10:11:54 AM »
I purchased some non-audiophile approved ICs and re-terminated the ends with XLRs, everything is unbalanced in my system. I grounded pin 3 at the input of the DSP 30 and I didn't connect pin 3 on the output.
 While the QSC DSP 30 can be used as a parametric equalizer to boost or cut any frequency, I am using it for delay and have set up a 24/oct. Bessel filter at 125Hz to augment the 12dB/oct. filters built into the plate amps. I have set the knobs fully clockwise on both plate amps giving a filter pole of around 160Hz.
 The subs are only being used to cancel out the bass wavefront headed towards their locations before they hit the wall and a reflection of the bass wavefront occurs which is the cause standing wave zones and bass response irregularities.  Because the bass energy that reaches the subs locations has already been reduced by absorption by and transmission through the other four walls of the room I can operate these subs at a much lower SPL than the front speakers and still get the job done. You really can't hear that the subs are playing until you are standing right on top of them.
The link I gave you describes how this approach works. 
 With the current setup I have well defined bass in the front of the room and at the listening position, the standing wave zones at the rear and side walls of the room have disappeared.
I basically have active room treatment below 125Hz., without needing to resort passive room treatments for bass response problems.
Scotty 
 

Offline richidoo

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 11:53:34 AM »
Very cool Scotty

How do you mount the drivers on the walls, in cabinets or in wall? Sealed? Height?

How do you decide how many subs are needed for a given front/rear wall size? 

Is there a spot in the rear where you can stand and hear the big bass cancellation dip, or does the location vary with freq?

I'm doing a new room this winter, thinking about trying this.
Thanks

Offline Werd

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2015, 01:20:03 PM »
I purchased some non-audiophile approved ICs and re-terminated the ends with XLRs, everything is unbalanced in my system. I grounded pin 3 at the input of the DSP 30 and I didn't connect pin 3 on the output.
 While the QSC DSP 30 can be used as a parametric equalizer to boost or cut any frequency, I am using it for delay and have set up a 24/oct. Bessel filter at 125Hz to augment the 12dB/oct. filters built into the plate amps. I have set the knobs fully clockwise on both plate amps giving a filter pole of around 160Hz.
 The subs are only being used to cancel out the bass wavefront headed towards their locations before they hit the wall and a reflection of the bass wavefront occurs which is the cause standing wave zones and bass response irregularities.  Because the bass energy that reaches the subs locations has already been reduced by absorption by and transmission through the other four walls of the room I can operate these subs at a much lower SPL than the front speakers and still get the job done. You really can't hear that the subs are playing until you are standing right on top of them.
The link I gave you describes how this approach works.  
 With the current setup I have well defined bass in the front of the room and at the listening position, the standing wave zones at the rear and side walls of the room have disappeared.
I basically have active room treatment below 125Hz., without needing to resort passive room treatments for bass response problems.
Scotty  
 

Are you using those Tetron GS's.  :lol:.  Now i know why you aren't using forward subs. You are basically doing what i am doing but you've decided to cancel the nodes. Where i want to load the rear. That is the only difference. The only disadvantage i can see with the Reimer's are the top woofers come forward into the room pretty far. Where i can sit my sub a little closer to the front wall. Maybe not a disadvantage but i can see why you don't want to load the back of the room.  

I use a couple of 244 panels standing on the floor perpendicular to the front wall. They stop the bass pretty good. Well that and the raised sub. So i have the sweetspot resolution with nice ambient loading in the rear. There isn't much sub travel towards the back of the room so i can load it up and i really don't hear the nasty buildup or boom anywhere.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 01:23:56 PM by Werd »
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2015, 06:37:45 PM »
Hi Rich, every thing I am doing is based on the information contained in Adrian Celestinos' doctoral thesis.
http://vbn.aau.dk/files/12831869/AC-phd.pdf

The bass produced by the stereo system escapes the room through all six sides of the cube assuming an above ground structure. It may also be absorbed by the room's contents. As a result of this there is no need for the rear woofers SPL output to match that produced the front speakers. The only requirement is that the bass extension of the rear sub-woofers must equal that of the front system. Theoretically, for the front system to produce a planer bass wavefront, many woofers must be recess mounted in the front wall and like wise the cancellation of planer wave before it hits the rear wall theoretically requires another wall full of woofers. 
 Celestinos' work applies the idea to real rooms in a practical manner. Experimental data shows that two woofers located in the front at the floor/wall boundary and equidistant from the corners will generate a close approximation of a planer wavefront at frequencies below 125Hz. Two subs placed on the rear wall in the same locations as the subs in the front of the room and operated 180 degrees out of phase with the appropriate delay will be enough to create a matching opposing wavefront and efficiently cancel out the bass wavefront before it impacts the rear wall and reflects causing standing waves. In fact according to Celestinos measurements plus and minus 3dB throughout the listening room is possible. This approach can be applied to any room whether rectangular or a perfect cube. The exception is the L shaped room, which of course is what I have to deal with, and he discusses this situation at the end of his paper.
 
 What is not discussed is the effect on the imaging and the improvement in the size of acoustic space created by the reduction in standing wave zones between the listener and the front speaker system. When the standing waves are not present, the recreated acoustic space expands towards the listener to the point that complete envelopment occurs, image precision improves as does depth layering and separation in space of instruments in the sound stage.
 
I first heard of the idea of using an 180 degree out of phase sub-woofer in the rear of the room to cancel out standing waves from my friend Stan Warren over 25years ago. His idea involved a sub-woofer with phase correcting servo control like the one he designed for RH Labs sub-woofers and delay provided by an analogue bucket brigade line, which was the only available technology at the time, to implement the necessary delay of the signal to the rear woofer.
 His explanation for the perceived improvement in sound staging was that the bass wavelengths act as a carrier wave for the the mid and high frequencies. When the complex phase relationships that exist in the Mid/Hf signal that is carried by the bass are degraded or destroyed by the presence standing waves in the room, then the spaciousness and precision of the imaging inherent program material will also be lost.
 This can be demonstrated quite dramatically by simply turning off the out of phase woofers in the rear of the room. The re-created space and 3 dimensional image will collapse towards the front of the room and be trapped on the front wall.
 
When Stan approached lawyer friend with the idea of patenting this concept he was told to put his plans in a paper bag and place them on a top shelf of his closet. The reason being that he could not afford to defend the patent in court when infringing products appeared based on his published patent.
 
When I told Stan about Celistinos' work he said that as simple an idea as it was, it was remarkable that someone didn't discover and put the concept into to the test before now, especially with the ready availability of inexpensive digital chips to implement the delay with.
 Even one woofer in the rear with delayed output is sufficient to realize a marked improvement in spaciousness and bass accuracy even if it does not result in + or - 3dB bass response in the entire listening room.
 
Paper C which starts on page 50 of Celestinos' work discusses mesurements of the equalization system in the real rooms.
Paper D starting on page 70 outlines his Controlled Acoustically Bass System(CABS), A method to achieve uniform sound field distribution at low frequencies in rectangular rooms.
 This is where the rubber meets the road. How CABS is implemented and the measured results in two real world rooms are presented. The science underlying the approach easily understandable as explained in this part of the thesis. The graphs are very valuable.
Scotty

Offline richidoo

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 06:31:36 AM »
I glanced through the link you provided earlier, but have not read it through yet. Thanks for the summary Scotty.

The room I am considering moving to will have slanted ceilings on the side walls parallel to the listening axis. There is a flat center section, of same width as the side ceilings, like an octagon. Will these slanted walls prevent success of CABS method? Must the room be a traditional box shape with parallel and equal size floor/ceiling?

I'll read Castelinos paper today. Thanks.  I have seen other articles about CABS method. I will try to find my links to them.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 06:37:15 AM »
Rich, aside from the design of ceiling what do the rooms dimensions consist of?
Scotty

Offline richidoo

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2015, 11:14:11 AM »
11' - 6" wide
15' - 7" long
8' - 0"  tall


Tim Welti comparing CABS (DBA) to Swarm:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3320-Comparison-of-Double-Bass-Array-to-Sound-Field-Management-Overview

What I'd love to do is infinite baffle CABS. But the room might be too small for that. I'd need a false wall in the front, and build double walls in the back to put the IB drivers on front and back walls and channel their exhaust to the side volumes. The center ceiling and side walls are attic space, so it would be far easier to put the IBs there, but can't do the cancellation.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:20:11 AM by richidoo »

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2015, 12:14:18 PM »
I"m no expert but I can't see any reason that CABS would not be very effective in that room. You have a rectangular floor plan irregardless of the shape of the ceiling. You will probably find RPG type diffusers mounted on the angled portion of the ceiling helpful. That angle may re-direct sound from the speakers back down into the listening area more effectively than a flat ceiling with a regular ceiling/wall boundary angle of 90degrees. The reflections may occur closer in time to the direct radiated sound from the loudspeaker. This would be entirely dependent on the directivity of the loudspeaker. An REW measurement might show a different comb-filter pattern in a room like this compared to a conventionally shaped room.
Scotty

Offline richidoo

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2015, 01:21:09 PM »
Agreed on all points. 90 deg corner reflections are very damaging to midrange tone, but I'm glad to hear that you think the CABS might work.

In this relatively small room 1300 cu ft, do you think I'd benefit from additional woofers wall mounted up higher, or do you think a pair of floor subs front and back is adequate?

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2015, 02:22:25 PM »
From Paper D, CABS does not need wall mounted woofers to give reasonable results based on the measurements done in the two rooms referenced in the paper. Not installing real 20Hz capable subs in the walls gets you away from structural resonances due to the wall vibrating.  
 You should be golden with four subs. If 10in. subs would reach low enough to meet your criteria, you would have more than enough bass energy in a room with of that cubic footage.
Scotty
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 05:17:35 PM by _Scotty_ »

Offline richidoo

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Re: Sub strategy
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2015, 02:54:10 PM »
OK, thanks much Scotty!

I have some reading to do!