Author Topic: Room volume  (Read 9473 times)

Offline Werd

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Room volume
« on: January 23, 2015, 09:52:17 PM »
Compared to a further distance away, Is sitting closer to your speakers raising the over-all volume? What is the differance of the soundstage change sitting closer? When sitting closer to your speakers i get more over all room volume. That seems intuitive but how I do not get the same soundstage immersion with just raising the volume from a point sitting further away. Must be room treatments vs speaker choice.

I do not listen cranked
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Offline Werd

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 08:47:26 AM »
I have to admit there was a lot of Jameson applied to this topic post last night.  :lol:
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2015, 08:58:38 AM »
Compared to a further distance away, Is sitting closer to your speakers raising the over-all volume?
Yes.

What is the differance of the soundstage change sitting closer?
You will hear more of the recorded "soundstage" and less of your room reverberation, because sitting closer to speakers allows reducing the volume of the speakers, so room reverb will be quieter.

When sitting closer to your speakers i get more over all room volume.

Have you been sitting close to my speakers again?  [-X

Sound is attenuated with distance, so overall volume will increase if you move closer to your speakers without adjusting the volume level to compensate for the reduced distance. Generally speaking, the room noise is also louder when you move closer to the speakers because the reflection distances to your ears are also shorter.

That seems intuitive but how I do not get the same soundstage immersion with just raising the volume from a point sitting further away.
Immersion into a recorded soundstage (strong spatial illusion) requires high S/N of the recorded ambience. Your listening room's echo reverberation is soundstage noise or "distortion." The room noise is reality, the opposite of the soundstage illusion that you seek. The louder your room in relation to the direct speaker sound, the less intense the recorded soundstage illusion will be. Damping first reflection points helps a bit, but a long RT60 is really the problem because the room keeps ringing which masks the subtle details of tone and space on the recording.

Listening closer to the speakers while turning down the volume of the speakers will increase the S/N ratio of the recording to the room noise and improve the spatial illusion.

Moving closer to the speakers will also change the toe of the speakers relative to your closer listening position, so you have to adjust that too. Changing toe will change the levels. It's a tangled web, so any change requires some work before you judge it. The room will still be talking to you, and your mind will have to learn a new processing filter before it "sounds right" in a new position.

This is one of the reasons I love listening anechoicly. The recorded soundstage is very clear and intense because there are no room echoes at all. Being in an anechoic room with no sound feels a little uncomfortable until the mind adjusts to the quiet, but any discomfort disappears when recorded ambience is played. Tone texture is more intense too, without comb filtering and tri-corner echos.

Must be room treatments vs speaker choice.
Speaker choice effects the quality of spatial illusion in proportion to the amount of group delay and the phase coherence between drivers. A lot of ambient information is in the low frequency, so clear bass is necessary to achieve excellent space. Small speakers have poor acoustic impedence at LF, so their direct cone radiation smears LF transients, as do reflex ports. The distortion of speakers happens in the bass region.

Room treatments can help too. Especially at first reflection points for HF direction cues. But the mid and low spatial cues are less affected by wall pads. In my experience either total wall coverage or none at all both make better space than partial coverage, especially on the front wall behind the speakers.

I do not listen cranked

I have to admit there was a lot of Jameson applied to this topic post last night.  :lol:

So you were cranked afterall...  :-P

Offline Werd

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 04:07:52 PM »

"Speaker choice effects the quality of spatial illusion in proportion to the amount of group delay and the phase coherence between drivers. A lot of ambient information is in the low frequency, so clear bass is necessary to achieve excellent space. Small speakers have poor acoustic impedence at LF, so their direct cone radiation smears LF transients, as do reflex ports. The distortion of speakers happens in the bass region."

How do you control the bass? Do you keep the bass inside the soundstage by preventing it (with Bass traps) from moving around the room. Confining it between the speakers. Or is it better to let it flow and just trap the nulls and spikes in your room?


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Offline rollo

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 08:31:31 AM »
   Think nearfield. Takes away most of the room. When I move my listening chair forward the sound is louder and surround like.
    Moving the speakers closer together away from side walls eliminates some early reflections and sitting in the triangle set up will immerses one in the music. Kinda like a 4the row seat.
   The Pipedreams when set up like the designers method of 5ft apart and toed in at 45 degrees yes 45 with the axis crossing in front of you is a immersive experience. However one needs 20ft behind them to get it right. Impractical for me and most.
   You may try just moving your sitting chair forward or back until you hit the sweet spot. Toe-in can be adjusted as well to fine tune. Try it.


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Offline richidoo

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 12:19:52 PM »
Think nearfield.

That's a good strategy Charlie. It improves the S/N ratio by letting you turn down the volume as you get closer to the speakers, then the lower volume inthe room reduces the reflection noise while the signal strength remains the same in your ears. Most speakers have a minimum distance from the listener, so that is the limit to how close you can get, and speakers do sound different with distance, but the improvement in S/N is worth adjusting to the different tone or correcting the tone electronically.

How do you control the bass?

Werd, sorry I didn't see your post until Charlie bumped it.

You can't control bass. It is a wild evil force of nature. It makes little children and grown audiophiles cry.

Do you keep the bass inside the soundstage by preventing it (with Bass traps) from moving around the room. Confining it between the speakers.

Can't confine it, but you can do a couple things that seem like confining it.

Use dipole speakers to cancel bass going to the sides and above of the speaker. This reduces room modes dramatically, but bass slam can suffer unless other techniques are used to compensate.

Using very thick bass traps on the walls with full coverage would absorb reflections and stop the modes from forming. Anechoic chamber. Modes are just reflections that combine together to make additive peaks and subtractive nulls. No reflections = no modes, no peaks, no nulls, no acoustic problem, no wife, no money and no space left for gear.

Actually I love the concept of anechoic listening. I have done a couple experiments with it and love listening without reflections. But people recoil at the idea of it without ever trying it, similar to making sausage vs eating it, or monetary deflation. It must be bad cuz everyone says so, right?

It's not a simple project to make a practical non-reflective space big enough, but it's possible. No reflection at all, perfect tone, perfect FR, perfect recorded ambience. Very low SPL because no noise to overcome. Detail off the charts. Extreme dynamic range. Midfi gear will make you cry, but you will hear every flaw magnified.

OK back to reality...

Or is it better to let it flow and just trap the nulls and spikes in your room?

This is what people do.

"Many men have tried."
"They've tried and failed?"
"They've tried and died."

To make efficient use of the money and to get effective results you have to forget the "broadband" mantra and think about the physics.

Absorption attenuates sound by converting air molecule velocity into heat. Air must be moving for attenuation to occur. Loudness is sound pressure, not velocity. Putting traps where the bass is loudest is ineffective. Max velocity occurs in the sound wave where pressure crosses zero, so quietness is velocity. Put traps where the freq is quietest and the traps will convert that freq to heat, and any other freqs with velocity at that spot.

What percentage of all corner locations is low SPL at the offending freq? Not much, so why treat all of it? You don't need to trap broadband bass, you need to stop only the modal frequencies that disturb your music enjoyment.

1. Identify the freqs you want to cure.
2. Find the places in the room where those freqs are quietest.
3. Put thick powerful concentrated absorption only there.
4. One dose will not kill a mode, take advantage of every opportunity you can find for each mode.
5. It is a big project, give it time, and enjoy the learning, enjoy the fight, feel the testosterone.
6. Defend your new nest from the soul snatchers.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 11:34:46 AM »
6. Defend your new nest from the soul snatchers.


.....and the wrath of your wife.  :roll:
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Offline Werd

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 07:46:01 PM »
Ok i am finding nearfield works if you got a big portion of your room behind you. Other you lose prat to the backwall coming back at you.
I have only used one sub but i got two now so i am wondering if I should use them to cancel out bass like Scotty talks about. My venture in using two subs has been dismall so far. Richidoo do i put the subs in the place where there is most bass or least? I get pretty fine bass with out subs already so i just want to fix the room. I also have two Gik 244 panels at hand.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 03:49:45 PM »
Put the GIKs in a corner location where the worst peak freq at the listening spot is minimum in the corner.

Put the sub in the listening seat at ear height if possible. Then crawl around on the floor at the height and location the subs will occupy to find the flattest, cleanest bass response.

Adjust the delay of the sub to match the distance of the mains from you. Block the mains port. This will take some time. Sub integrationg is not trivial. Read Robert Harley's article about it.

I never tried multi subs. Scotty is the man to ask about that. Read the articles from Harmon and from Gedlee.

Offline rollo

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Re: Room volume
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 08:27:32 AM »
  Richidoo I was about to say the same with the crawling method but thought you guys would roll over. Works every time.
  Werd you may also try the subs on plane with the mains. Once you get them where they disappear until bass is there raise them up to 22% of room height. Another no brainer as far as my experience is concerned. 
   What are you crossing over at ? Running mind full range and bringing bass up ? I would suggest a high pass filter at the amp. Just a cap is need. Ya need to know the input impedance of your amp for the calculation. There are formulas for that. For example with an input of 100K a .0022 cap would give me a 73Hz point.
   So crawl away and be happy. PM Scotty as well. I heard his results, talk to him.


charles
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