Author Topic: PIAUDIO BETABUSS  (Read 31111 times)

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 03:34:25 PM »
i've been watching this thread; here's my question - i purposely connected my front end gear - preamp & sources to one branch, and the amps and x-over to the other.  actually, i just wanted them on separate breakers, but it turns out they're also on different branches.  so, would this not work in my situation?  or would i need two?  or?

thanks,

doug s.
Im surprised that you don't have hum issues, but hey... whatever works.

Ideally the combination of an Uber on one branch (probably the one with the front end) and the B-D on the other would be the way to go, but using two would be a decent alternative.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 03:44:22 PM »
X-spurts say we're supposed to have all our audio gear on one phase and our noisy appliances like flourescent bulbs and fridge on the other phase. I think there is some advantage to having all the audio gear on same phase other than keeping away from noisy appliances. But the imagination of technically minded can run wild on topics like these, I wonder how much of it is just wives' tales.

I also wondered why not put betabusses on both phases.  #-o
Since we need both phases to split the load as even as possible it is hard to be really rigorous about this.  Given this it is not uncommon to see Neutral and Ground differentials of several volts = ground loops and DC components in house wiring.  These are real problems that can cause all kinds of chaos.  Ground loops are just the tip of the iceberg.  AC noise is often insidious and taken as "normal" until it is gone and the system is transformed.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline HAL

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
  • Audio Mad Scientist
    • Hollis Audio Labs
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 04:59:50 PM »
Well according to my main panel, the basement opposite side to the audio room has the other phase running the plugs and lights.  That is interesting as that means all the downstairs light dimmers and upstairs refrigerator are on the B phase and the audio system on the A phase.

The BUSS-Depot is now connected and on.  Will give it a bit and see what happens in the audio room.  Cool that you can use the switch to A/B and see what happens.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:01:46 PM by HAL »

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »
i've been watching this thread; here's my question - i purposely connected my front end gear - preamp & sources to one branch, and the amps and x-over to the other.  actually, i just wanted them on separate breakers, but it turns out they're also on different branches.  so, would this not work in my situation?  or would i need two?  or?

thanks,

doug s.
Im surprised that you don't have hum issues, but hey... whatever works.

Ideally the combination of an Uber on one branch (probably the one with the front end) and the B-D on the other would be the way to go, but using two would be a decent alternative.
it could be that i do not have hum because, on the front end, the preamp, fono stage, tuner & dbx are plugged into a medical/lab grade isolation transformer, which is in turn plugged into a furman balanced power conditioner.  the tuirntable gets its own medical/lab grade isolation transformer.  the internet tuner, cd transport, dacs (one for internet tuner, the other for transport), tube buffer and fm decoder are plugged into a multi-outlet felix, which also gets plugged into a separate duplex outlet on the furman balanced power conditioner.  on the output side, the active x-over and three amps (4 plugs, actually, as the mesa baron has separate power cords for each channel), get plugged into the cinepro balanced power conditioner.

doug s.
Yup,  those will do it because grounds are virtual in balanced power supplies.

Do you notice reduced dynamics with the Mesa Baron plugged into the Cinepro?

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2018, 01:09:15 PM »
Yup,  those will do it because grounds are virtual in balanced power supplies.

Do you notice reduced dynamics with the Mesa Baron plugged into the Cinepro?
you know, i never tried the baron straight into the wall.  (even before i connected the cinepro, the baron was plugged into a mondo topaz ultra-isolation transformer; and before that, a vans evers clean line "unlimiter" - made specifically for amps.)  but dynamics have never been a problem w/it.  i guess i could try and see.  but i suspect i wouldn't be able to hear a difference.  (not saying there isn't a difference!  ;) )  the cinepro is a 20a 2400w thing, that, at 75lbs, weighs 10lbs more than the baron.



doug s.
yeah, I get it.  I hadf a Topz 2.5KVE Ultra Iso TX that I liberated from Philips Semi when we shut that plant down.  Even on my 20WPC Cary 572SE MKII monoblocks there was a significant reduction in rise times through that set up.

Give it a shot.  It will be interesting to see your results.

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 09:12:24 PM »
Yup,  those will do it because grounds are virtual in balanced power supplies.

Do you notice reduced dynamics with the Mesa Baron plugged into the Cinepro?
you know, i never tried the baron straight into the wall.  (even before i connected the cinepro, the baron was plugged into a mondo topaz ultra-isolation transformer; and before that, a vans evers clean line "unlimiter" - made specifically for amps.)  but dynamics have never been a problem w/it.  i guess i could try and see.  but i suspect i wouldn't be able to hear a difference.  (not saying there isn't a difference!  ;) )  the cinepro is a 20a 2400w thing, that, at 75lbs, weighs 10lbs more than the baron.



doug s.
yeah, I get it.  I hadf a Topz 2.5KVE Ultra Iso TX that I liberated from Philips Semi when we shut that plant down.  Even on my 20WPC Cary 572SE MKII monoblocks there was a significant reduction in rise times through that set up.

Give it a shot.  It will be interesting to see your results.
Damn, I hate fat finger typing:  I had a Topaz 2.5KVA....  Sheesh!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2018, 10:32:38 AM »
yeah, I get it.  I hadf a Topz 2.5KVE Ultra Iso TX that I liberated from Philips Semi when we shut that plant down.  Even on my 20WPC Cary 572SE MKII monoblocks there was a significant reduction in rise times through that set up.

Give it a shot.  It will be interesting to see your results.
Damn, I hate fat finger typing:  I had a Topaz 2.5KVA....  Sheesh!
damn, i must have fat eyeball reading, cuz i didn't even notice; read it as 2.5kva!   :D 

was the reduction in rise time audible, or was it just the measurement?

doug s.
It was apparent on the leading edges of percussion and solo acoustic guitar more than anything.  Instead of a drum going THWACK! it was more like tHWACK - same with cymbals PING became pING.  As a retired concussions (rock and roll drummer) these are things that really stick out to me.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:35:15 AM by dBe »

Offline TrueAudio

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2018, 02:35:26 PM »
yeah, I get it.  I hadf a Topz 2.5KVE Ultra Iso TX that I liberated from Philips Semi when we shut that plant down.  Even on my 20WPC Cary 572SE MKII monoblocks there was a significant reduction in rise times through that set up.

Give it a shot.  It will be interesting to see your results.
Damn, I hate fat finger typing:  I had a Topaz 2.5KVA....  Sheesh!
damn, i must have fat eyeball reading, cuz i didn't even notice; read it as 2.5kva!   :D 

was the reduction in rise time audible, or was it just the measurement?

doug s.
It was apparent on the leading edges of percussion and solo acoustic guitar more than anything.  Instead of a drum going THWACK! it was more like tHWACK - same with cymbals PING became pING.  As a retired concussions (rock and roll drummer) these are things that really stick out to me.
As I currently await the very xformer you speak of, I'm using a slightly smaller 2.4kVA one (yes it's 0.0005pf also).  I tested the Uber in front of, and after it.  Uber after it is the way to go absolutely hands down, because it eliminates the transient blunting of the xformer, as well as getting rid of that weird slow, "syrupy" sound from coming directly off the transformer.  I will say that the Uber after it is, IMO better than just the uber by itself.  I personally noticed greater silence between notes, cleaner treble frequencies.  The silence between notes was probably the biggest improvement I noticed with the Topaz upstream of the Uber.  You have to keep in mind, I live in probably one of the worst states for dirty power (MA) --because of all the solar bullshit.  Cheap-ass solar inverters made in China, by themselves generating up to 2 full volts of noise right onto peoples AC mains--and how much of that is backfeeding to the transformers on the street--times that by increasing thousands and thousands of people, and I can't even believe electronics can even survive anymore, much less be anywhere near getting the quality power we had even 5 years ago.  It's getting so bad that I've seen businesses with motors burning out from the extreme noise creating excessive heat in the windings, to where it's almost going to be mandatory to shell out the cash for Environmental Potentials panel mount units (both the main filter plus the high frequency filter (which is also a low frequency filter [starts at 200Hz]).

There are low noise solar inverters, for $4,500.  So, you want solar and want clean power, that's what you're going to be paying, but that doesn't address the noise from 99.9999% of everyone else who has the lowest quality garbage electronics stuffed into all these inverters and "smart" (slavery) meters [that should be banned and made illegal, permanently].

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2018, 05:23:39 PM »
ok, ot - but why , exactly, should smart meters be banned and made illegal?   :-k  making them illegal is what should be permanently banned, imo.

doug s.
Yes, sir.  They suck in every way.

Offline Nick B

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4095
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2018, 05:53:01 PM »
yeah, I get it.  I hadf a Topz 2.5KVE Ultra Iso TX that I liberated from Philips Semi when we shut that plant down.  Even on my 20WPC Cary 572SE MKII monoblocks there was a significant reduction in rise times through that set up.

Give it a shot.  It will be interesting to see your results.
Damn, I hate fat finger typing:  I had a Topaz 2.5KVA....  Sheesh!
damn, i must have fat eyeball reading, cuz i didn't even notice; read it as 2.5kva!   :D 

was the reduction in rise time audible, or was it just the measurement?

doug s.
It was apparent on the leading edges of percussion and solo acoustic guitar more than anything.  Instead of a drum going THWACK! it was more like tHWACK - same with cymbals PING became pING.  As a retired concussions (rock and roll drummer) these are things that really stick out to me.
As I currently await the very xformer you speak of, I'm using a slightly smaller 2.4kVA one (yes it's 0.0005pf also).  I tested the Uber in front of, and after it.  Uber after it is the way to go absolutely hands down, because it eliminates the transient blunting of the xformer, as well as getting rid of that weird slow, "syrupy" sound from coming directly off the transformer.  I will say that the Uber after it is, IMO better than just the uber by itself.  I personally noticed greater silence between notes, cleaner treble frequencies.  The silence between notes was probably the biggest improvement I noticed with the Topaz upstream of the Uber.  You have to keep in mind, I live in probably one of the worst states for dirty power (MA) --because of all the solar bullshit.  Cheap-ass solar inverters made in China, by themselves generating up to 2 full volts of noise right onto peoples AC mains--and how much of that is backfeeding to the transformers on the street--times that by increasing thousands and thousands of people, and I can't even believe electronics can even survive anymore, much less be anywhere near getting the quality power we had even 5 years ago.  It's getting so bad that I've seen businesses with motors burning out from the extreme noise creating excessive heat in the windings, to where it's almost going to be mandatory to shell out the cash for Environmental Potentials panel mount units (both the main filter plus the high frequency filter (which is also a low frequency filter [starts at 200Hz]).

There are low noise solar inverters, for $4,500.  So, you want solar and want clean power, that's what you're going to be paying, but that doesn't address the noise from 99.9999% of everyone else who has the lowest quality garbage electronics stuffed into all these inverters and "smart" (slavery) meters [that should be banned and made illegal, permanently].


Thanks for the info on potential solar power issues. By definition, I had assumed solar  power would be quite pure.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2018, 08:03:18 AM »
OK then what  should one purchase to use with Uber feeding digital gear only ? topaz ? other ? Spec of IT ?

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline HAL

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
  • Audio Mad Scientist
    • Hollis Audio Labs
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2018, 08:59:32 AM »
Charles,
Have you tried a DigiBUSS on the output of the UberBUSS for the digital components?  I have that running my MS-3 Music Server and dspMusikLCD 2x16 running The Megaliths and makes a very quiet system.  I have the USB SSD AC switching power supply as well on the DigiBUSS for the music library.

Offline TrueAudio

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2018, 10:28:50 AM »
ok, ot - but why , exactly, should smart meters be banned and made illegal?   :-k  making them illegal is what should be permanently banned, imo.

doug s.
Start by educating yourself:

http://www.stopsmartmetersbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Evaluation-of-the-ITRON-Open-Way-AMI-Meter-PowerPoint-by-William-S.-Bathgate-Jan.12-2017-.pdf

Evaluation of the ITRON
Open Way AMI Meter
By William Bathgate, EE, ME
January 12, 2017

"About the Author

I hold an electrical engineering and mechanical engineering degree and previously was employed through late 2015 for 8 years at the Emerson Electric Company. While at Emerson Electric I was the Senior Program Manager for Power Distribution Systems and in charge of RF and IP based digitally controlled high power AC power switching system product lines in use in over 100 countries. I was also directly responsible for product certifications such as UL, CE, PSE and many other countries electrical certification bodies. I am very familiar with the electrical and electronic design of the AMI meters in use because I was responsible for very similar products with over 1 Million units installed across the world.

I hold a DOD Top Secret Clearance, serving in Cyber Security at the USMDA and Homeland Security
I have done this analysis due to my own curiosity without conflict of interest of this new technology.
I have 40 Years work experience in design and deployment of:

High tech power management systems, UPS and power distribution
Switched Mode Power Supplies
Electrical and Electronic hardware engineering
Computer systems engineering
Radio Systems design and testing
High Current and High Voltage switches
Internet communications using both wired and wireless technologies
UL, CE (Europe), Africa, Japan, Australia and China product safety certifications
Cyber encryption and protection of Radio Communications using digital signals
RFI/EMI mitigation"

http://stopsmartmeters.org/

EKG Proof That "Smart" Meters Affect the Human Heart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-aNRQNRtaI

EKG Proof That "Smart" Meters Affect the Human Heart, Part II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIobFr3m8kk
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:33:44 AM by TrueAudio »

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2018, 10:35:20 AM »
Charles,
Have you tried a DigiBUSS on the output of the UberBUSS for the digital components?  I have that running my MS-3 Music Server and dspMusikLCD 2x16 running The Megaliths and makes a very quiet system.  I have the USB SSD AC switching power supply as well on the DigiBUSS for the music library.


  Hal I'm the Guy  who recommended using the Digibuss into the Uber. Most I noticed plugged Digibuss directly into wall outlet. They were as you discovered missing out.
   Was just curious as to which isolation transformer to check out. Thanks for the input.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
Re: PIAUDIO BETABUSS
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2018, 11:50:00 AM »
Charles,
Have you tried a DigiBUSS on the output of the UberBUSS for the digital components?  I have that running my MS-3 Music Server and dspMusikLCD 2x16 running The Megaliths and makes a very quiet system.  I have the USB SSD AC switching power supply as well on the DigiBUSS for the music library.


  Hal I'm the Guy  who recommended using the Digibuss into the Uber. Most I noticed plugged Digibuss directly into wall outlet. They were as you discovered missing out.
   Was just curious as to which isolation transformer to check out. Thanks for the input.

charles
There are up and downsides to using an ISO TX.  One is heat generation.  The good ones show about a 96%-97% efficiency and they do get quite warm to the touch.  Another is the inevitable hum that is inherent in large windings.  The worst ones from a hum standpoint are toroids - they also have very high inrush currents on energization and can trip circuit breakers if they are of a capacity (at least 2.0KVA) big enough to consider for power amps.  The biggie is the high output impedance of the transformer. 

Transformer ratings are steady state.  Having a large steady state capacity TX is essential for power supply.  A low output impedance is where slam, macro & micro dynamics and ultimate transparency comes from in audio.  Speed is what we are talking about here.  Another important requirement is very low capacitance -  .0005pf is desirable.

There are 3 brands that are essentially the same when it comes to function.  Originally manufactured by Square D is Topaz which became MGE(APC) and Xentex is pretty much a clone of the Square D/Topaz/MGE versions.  I have experimented with various sizes and have come to the conclusion that 2.5KVA is as small as I would consider for full system use.

CMRR is typically greater than 135dB for these types.  The best ones are ~145dB.

Using the UberBUSS after the transformer provides a power factor correction figure of 1.0 and very low output impedance as well as impedance matching from a transformer(ISO) to a transformer(gear) which is basically a no-no.