Out of Sight out of Mind

[_Scotty_]

A comment about Bound For Sound. Marten is not immune from the consequences of his actions. If he tells the truth about a component in an unflattering way he will not receive any more components from the manufacturer who feels offended by his candor. By extension other manufacturers who see a competitors product panned will also be reluctant to submit their babies to be reviewed. Ideally someone who was independently wealthy could buy anything that might be of interest to an audiophile and comment on it in an intelligent manner. I also take exception to the way Michael Fremer reviews phono cartridges.
I am so old I can remember when Anthony H. Cordsman used to write for Stereophile and when he reviewed phono cartridges the frequency response,channel separation,channel balance,resonant frequency in a typical tonearm of the 
 period and the THD of the cartridge was measured. Nowadays what we see is a review of a stupidly expensive phono cartridge with no measurements whatsoever and only Michaels word that the the thing is any good at all. The aforementioned measurements actually determine what the cartridge will sound like when placed into service
in your system. If his reviews are to be relevant to the reader as an aid to making a buying decision this information is vitally necessary. If his writing is only supposed to be entertaining, then the lack of this information doesn't matter. I suppose it depends on what you wish to accomplish with your review.
Scotty

[bacobits]

Marty on occasion has stated too that he will sometimes give the manufacturer a
chance to fix the criticism or completely scrap the review and not publish it.

D

[Carlman]

A comment about Bound For Sound. Marten is not immune from the consequences of his actions. If he tells the truth about a component in an unflattering way he will not receive any more components from the manufacturer who feels offended by his candor. By extension other manufacturers who see a competitors product panned will also be reluctant to submit their babies to be reviewed. Ideally someone who was independently wealthy could buy anything that might be of interest to an audiophile and comment on it in an intelligent manner.

That's one reason AudioNervosa is here!  We're audiophiles freely offering our opinions about what we actually hear, nothing more, nothing less.  We've built a nice community and we are getting better ideas of what each other likes/dislikes.. so we can actually use our findings to make some 'educated guesses' of what will work for each other.

It's sad that a manufacturer would be so shallow to think that 1 unfavorable review means a permanent business impact... and they can't figure out a way to make something positive come from it... Very uncreative of them. 

-C

[JLM]

Over my roughly 40 years around audio the goals seem to have changed.  Bass has gotten tighter and leaner.  Overall the sound has gotten much more analytical (versus musical) and so more fatiguing.

Of course there has been improvements in material sciences and innovations in solid state, digital, and computer audio.  We have discovered the importance of wire (interconnects/speaker cables/etc.).

Audio memory is fleeting, so some justification for Stereophile dropping old stuff.  And obviously their reviews and recommendations fuel their magazine.

And love vintage stuff as we might, materials decay in time, so we may never be able to accurately reproduce the sound we loved years ago.

(Hi, my first post here.)

[StereoNut]

Unless you're fortunate enough to be in the "MNO" (Money's No Object) category (and I can assure you that I'm not) I can't see how anyone can participate in this hobby of ours and NOT delve into used/classic gear for at least part of one's system.  Inevitably, everyone has different tastes in equipment, music, etc... but I can't see anyone arguing over having a better system for less money by buying used.

Other than my CD player & TT, all of my other equipment piece by piece has been bought USED.  If you have a good general knowledge of what you're looking at and know the average re-sale prices for it, you can get a lotta "bang for the buck" going used.  If you buy "right" dollar-wise, it will allow you enough room to afford the occasional repair/referb on a piece and still come out ahead.

One of the only major benefits that I can see (hear) to buying new (depending on where you shop) is having the luxury of 30 day in-home "auditions" on gear from some retailers and/or catalog companies.  Being able to listen to a new piece of gear in your own system and determine whether you like it enough or not to keep it is a big plus.  Then again, you have to keep in mind that introducing any brand new, in-the-box piece of equipment into a system will lead to another topic of discussion worthy of it's own thread, which is break-in time.

Of course, the biggest factor in upgrade process (regardless of whether a piece is new or used) will always be system synergy.  It's gotta sound right to you in your system, otherwise why spend the money?

All I know is that I would never have the system I have now without buying the majority of it used.  I guess it depends on one's priorities... would you rather drive a brand new "stripped" econobox or a "fully loaded" used (insert your favorite luxury car model here) for less money? 

StereoNut

[JLM]

Good point StereoNut.

My transport, DAC, and monoblocks are all used.


I would also throw out the suggestion of going with cottage industry sources.  My DAC has been cottage modded, all my cabling cottage made, my attenuators cottage made, and my speakers were cottage designed/built.

My $45 Ikea rack (nightstand), GIK absorption panels, and various low cost isolation products are the only new/retail stuff in my system.

[KCI-JohnP]

Oh one more thing. I'm actually sick of some of these people's opinions on these boards.
No names mentioned but not here.

Den

Man, talk about hitting the nail on the head! I've gotten so sick of it I can hardly stomach visiting some of the other forums. Here's to you Den 

I love used gear(probably because I can't afford the new stuff), right now there are so many great deals to be had-if only I had money!!

[bacobits]

Oh yea, there are lots of good deals now.
I don't have the $$ to act on any of it. I would do it only because it was there.
Not because I'm unhappy withn my system or sound. It's an affliction.
I would love to know what some of these people
pay in the first place for this stuff. $5K amps selling for $2K.
Do they lose that much money?


Den

[rollo]

Oh yea, there are lots of good deals now.
I don't have the $$ to act on any of it. I would do it only because it was there.
Not because I'm unhappy within my system or sound. It's an affliction.
I would love to know what some of these people
pay in the first place for this stuff. $5K amps selling for $2K.
Do they lose that much money?


Den

   Correct lots of great deals out there . Cash is and always be king.  Over the years have bought new and used. b
Buying new at a discount though for me is most desirable. Full warranty and being the original owner will bring a larger return when its time to sell. Depending on the cost of the item a substantial discount can be negotiated. However usually a relationship with the dealer before helps. Repeat customers just get the deals. As it should be IMO.
  IMO today a smart dealer will have a trade in program available . This way he can attract both the used and new crowds. If more dealers or manfs had such a plan like cars it could be a good thing. Set the standards for used pricing and valued trades. One of the reasons besides its great sound is my Micro Benz cart. They allow $800 towards a new cart when you trade in the old. BRILLIANT. Any opinions ?


charles

[shep]

I have always longed for one of those flagship Sony CDP (the 7 series). Modded, up to date, I'm sure it would hold its own against anything today. As Rollo said in the begin, circuit design is just being handed around and refined. What has changed significantly is parts quality. The only thing really new are the class T or D or whatever you want to call them. My ICE amp is one component that I wouldn't trade or sell or replace with a class A of yore. On the other hand, I'm absolutely sure speakers have improved enormously over the years and I would never want a 30 year speaker in the house (unless it was rewired and re-parted)

[tmazz]

30 year old speakers are tough for two reasons. First speakers are mechanical devices that can wear out over time. In particular many of the materials used in cones and surrounds in that era were plagued by a tendency to dry out and crack as they aged. Secondly, 30 years ago represents the really early days of "high end" and there was not much available in the way of audiophile speakers. Jon Dahlquist had just introduced the DQ-10 and the Magneplanar had just come on the scene (under the Audio Research banner) However, if you were to just fast forward the clock about 7 - 8 years to the late 80s, we are looking at a whole different world. In addition to updated designs from Magnapan, we are also starting to see great new designs from companies like Thiel, Martin-Logan, Apogee, Vandersteen and a whole host of others. These were all pretty groundbreaking designs and while they may not keep pace with today's state of the art speakers, they certainly sound no worse than they did back then (and with some of the newer electronics that have come around since then, in many cases they can now sound even better.) And by the time the 80s came around, advances in material science were such that speakers did not break down over time as much as they previously did. And compared to the prices we must now pay for high end speakers, some of the models of that era are a downright steal. For example, both Thiel 3.5s and Maggie MG IIas can be found on the used market in excellent condition (both functionally and cosmetically) for under $1000. Now; while neither of these speakers can compare sonically to the current flagship models from their respective companies, both can still produce a credible high end sound and can be in your house for a price that is not much more than you would pay in sales tax on the purchase of what is now that company's top of the line speaker. In terms of pure sound per dollar (or franc) you still can't beat some of these golden oldies. And while many of us have grown past these speakers, they do represent a great value for someone new to the hobby or someone who is on a tight audio budget

Tom