Author Topic: Turntable Periphery rings!  (Read 11769 times)

Offline topround

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Turntable Periphery rings!
« on: February 02, 2011, 06:09:41 PM »
Just borrowed a TT weights periphery ring and I must say it works!
Quieter background yeilds a more focused stage, instruments in tighter focus and more decay.
Seems to control the stylus better allowing better tracking and able to read the groove better.
Not a subtle improvement! I want one! A cleaner more refined sound, sort of like what a better clock does for digital.

It adds another step to vinyl playback because the ring has to be centered with the provided tool before each play. Not really that big a deal, and worth it in my estimate, especially with high priced cartridges, it allows you to get everything the cartridge can do.


mike

System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 07:19:11 PM »
Interesting. Will it work with any table? I wonder if it causes much stress and ware on the drive system...
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 08:59:24 PM »
Do you think the benefit of the ring is due to holding down the edge of the record more firmly, or by increasing angular momentum which will make the RPMs more stable, or both?

Power supply upgrades that reduce cogging and other rotational noise usually make the bass stronger and background quieter too.

It always fascinates me just how sensitive that tiny needle is to everything.

Offline BobM

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 07:58:40 AM »
I think I would first get a speed control. Most of what you describe can be attributed to the stability of the platter rotation. The ring helps, as does a heavier platter, but fixing the instability at the source of the problem, the motor, is what I would suggest doing first.

Not that the ring isn't helping,  I'm sure it is, but I wonder what incremental benefit it would have once there is a speed control in the system.
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Offline allenzachary

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 08:50:40 AM »
... by increasing angular momentum which will make the RPMs more stable, or both?

Rich-

You paid attention in physics class?  I never thought that any of that would ever be useful.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 09:55:48 AM »
Here is the website for the TT weights

http://www.ttweights.com/480_gram_alloy_outer_ring.html

He also has a cool video demonstrating the products.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnzDGGAmtDo

eleazar

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 02:11:46 PM »

Offline topround

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 02:41:23 PM »
I am using a Micro Seiki BL 111 with the gunmetal platter, the platter weighs 22 pounds so there is plenty of mass in the platter. The motor on my table is a DC servo and I adjust speed with the speed control and a strobe mat, so it is spinning correctly. The speed boxes are for ac motors, not dc.

It does flatten the record and that must make the cart track better(more accurately).
In the digital world I would liken it to a clock upgrade. I cleans up the signal, what comes out is music that is less compressed and spread out a bit more.

Is it a huge difference? No..but if you listen you will hear it.
I am ordering one :thumb:

And Barry it should work on your linn table. The Micro Seiki is mass loaded so I am not sure how it would affect a suspended table, you may need the lightest one they make.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 02:43:12 PM by topround »
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 09:43:31 PM »
Do you think the benefit of the ring is due to holding down the edge of the record more firmly, or by increasing angular momentum which will make the RPMs more stable, or both?

Power supply upgrades that reduce cogging and other rotational noise usually make the bass stronger and background quieter too.

It always fascinates me just how sensitive that tiny needle is to everything.

Rich,

I think the primary benefit of the ring is what you mentioned first, holding down the edge of the record more firmly. This can also be accomplished to some extent y the use of a reflex clamp, but the clamp has limited effectiveness on records that aren't flat in the first place, which are the ones that need the most help. A ring will definitely do a better job in that respect.

As for increasing the angular momentum, that is a definite maybe and really has to do with the original mass of the platter you are dealing with and the relative mass of the ring you are putting on it. If you are starting with a 4 lb platter and putting a 3 lb ring on it you  will make a significant impact on the rtational stability of the platter. But if the platter is already 22 lbs, adding 3 more will make a much smaller impact in this area. In the case of an already heavy platter the advantages of the ring will be pretty much limited to the aforementioned flattening and coupling effects.

I also agree that the first place I would look would be to a power supply upgrade. I bought my VPI PLC with the sole thought of using it to switch between the 33 & 45 speeds so I wouldn't stretch out the belt by moving it between the different size pulleys. I was shocked to hear the amount od sound improvement it made to all of my LPs.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 09:56:22 PM by tmazz »
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 10:09:55 PM »
And Barry it should work on your linn table. The Micro Seiki is mass loaded so I am not sure how it would affect a suspended table, you may need the lightest one they make.

I would be very careful using a ring on a suspended table, especially something as lightly suspended as a Linn. Remember in a suspend table the spring stiffness is carefully chosen based on the weight that they will be holding up such that the resonance point of the system falls into a certain range. If you change the load on the springs by adding the weight of the ring, you can end up changing the resonance point of the springs and move it into an area that could have a detrimental impact on the sound of the table. When you upgrade a VPI HW-19 from the Mk II to the MK IV status (which involves installing the heavier Mk IV platter) VPI includes a new set of suspension springs that are tuned to the new total weight of the TT.

I remember reading an article about Linn LP-12 tables  where  the Linn rep was asked why they didn't use heavier springs to make the LP-12 less sensitive to footfalls. The answer was that the spring system was specifically tuned for the best sonic performance and this did not correspond to the best footfall protection. (Their response was that it was the owners responsibility to put it on a firmer base if footfalls became a problem.) Bottom line is that adding weight to the platter could also potentially change this carefully chosen spring tuning. Anyone thinking about putting a ring on an LP-12 should check with Linn or at least talk to the people at TT Weights and see what they recommend to do with an LP-12.

Tom
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 07:22:07 AM »
Thanks Tom

Offline eastwes

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 12:27:23 PM »
Good luck with that Mike. 
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eleazar

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 02:28:14 PM »
Here is part of what you wrote today Tmazz

Quote
When you upgrade a VPI HW-19 from the Mk II to the MK IV status (which involves installing the heavier Mk IV platter) VPI includes a new set of suspension springs that are tuned to the new total weight of the TT.
I put a heavier platter I purchased from AudioGon on my HW-19 MK III a few months ago.(Inverted bearing I believe from an Aries TT) I even contacted VPI about it, nothing was said to me about different springs only that I would probably new a spacer to raise the height of the tonearm. Should I contact VPI and inquire further
Thanks.........Bill

Offline topround

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 03:12:58 PM »
Good luck with that Mike. 

Thanks!
My stylus just can't wait to knock into that ring!    :duh


only a matter of time :rofl:

mike
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Turntable Periphery rings!
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 10:17:20 AM »
Here is part of what you wrote today Tmazz

Quote
When you upgrade a VPI HW-19 from the Mk II to the MK IV status (which involves installing the heavier Mk IV platter) VPI includes a new set of suspension springs that are tuned to the new total weight of the TT.
I put a heavier platter I purchased from AudioGon on my HW-19 MK III a few months ago.(Inverted bearing I believe from an Aries TT) I even contacted VPI about it, nothing was said to me about different springs only that I would probably new a spacer to raise the height of the tonearm. Should I contact VPI and inquire further
Thanks.........Bill

Bill,

OK, it has been a lot of years since I took college physics, and while I remembered that simple spring system resonance was fairly straight forward relationship with the loading mass, I could not remember the exact formula. Yeah Google! It was pretty easy to find.  As it turns out the mass component of the equation is in the denominator so increasing mass will lower the systems resonant frequency  (Hey, I remembered it moved it  :roll:)

For those of you that still own a plastic pocket protector, here is a link to the formulas ;
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/shm2.html

So that changes the point of view of the question, but it basically still remains the same, what effect will the extra weight have on the performance of the suspension system. When designing a spring suspension there are basically two things you have to look for (and trade off between). It has to be loose enough to isolate the platter and arm from any external vibrations that the TT might be subjected to and it must be stiff enough so as not to resonate in a way that will introduce audible artifacts into the TT's output signal.

Basically both of those things have a range of acceptable values and if the change in platters results in a change that still falls within those acceptable ranges the old springs are good to go. The people over at VPI are very good and know their products inside out. I have several conversations with Mike in the service dept. and he has always been right on top of any issue that I asked him about. It is quite possible that moving to a Mk IV platter requires an change in springs and moving to an Aries platter does not. But Mike would certainly be the one to ask. If you do talk to him ask about the new HW-19 isolators that they are selling as a replacement for the springs Set of 4 for $50. One of these days I an going to order a set and see how the sound on mine. It may be better. may be worse, but for $50 what the heck, it would be fun to find out.

As for the arm spacer Mike spoke about, what kind of arm do you have. If you haven't got the spacer yet you might want to think about looking for a VPI  Super Armboard. This is a thicker armboard that they came out with when the Mk IV came out that raises the arm so it is compatible with the thicker Mk IV platter. The extra thickness also made it stiffer and less resonant.I don't see them listed on the HW-19 parts page anymore, so I'm not sure if you can get them from VPI, but the do show up every once in a while on A'gon, although mostly drilled for SME arms (others come around but are harder to find.) I picked one up about a year ago, but it is still sitting in the box because I spent so much time dialing in my current cartridge that I don't dare touch it right now. Next time I change it out I will remount the SME IV on the new armboard, but until them it is working just fine, so I don't want to mess with it. (and with any amount of luck, by then I will have also come across a good deal on a MK IV platter and bearing and can change out everything at once. And BTW, if you are running you HW-19 without a PLC or an SDS start looking for one now. I have never heard an SDS in my system, but I can tell you you will be hard pressed to get a bigger improvement for the amount of money you will have to lay out for a used PLC (generally between $200 & $300, but if you keep your eyes peeled you will see one occasionally for under $150).
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables