Author Topic: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub  (Read 39485 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM »
Are the LS50s on stands?

Yes,
I just ordered B & W stands a few days ago as the ones designed for the LS 50s have such a small top plate
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2018, 11:55:16 AM »
I was going to suggest DIY subwoofer stands....
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2018, 03:00:18 PM »
I like the idea of the LS 50s on the subs. My stands haven’t arrived yet and I’ll talk to the dealer, who’s in Las Vegas, about this. This dealer is a long time a/v shop, but has added two channel recently and has nice gear like Naim, McIntosh, Dynadio etc.
I’m aware of the Isoacoustic stands, but don’t know anybody who’s tried them. As this is a decoupling mechanism, I bought some foam recently and will put it under the KEFs. This was after watching a Bobby Owsinski video on YouTube. But that’s another topic....
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2018, 05:27:22 AM »
I like the idea of the LS 50s on the subs.
Yes, literally stands the footprint (8"w x 11" d ?) of the LS50s, whatever height desired (28-30" ?).
That would be plenty big enough enclosure for a sub. There are a number of shallow drivers that could be used dual opposed if you fret vibrations to the utmost (I don't).

cheers,

AJ
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2018, 03:46:50 PM »
Not worried much about vibrations, just the wife .... 😠
Still thinkin’ about all this
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Offline tmazz

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2018, 05:38:37 PM »
Not worried much about vibrations, just the wife .... 😠
Still thinkin’ about all this

Oh, there will be plenty of vibrations if your wife is not happy with what you decide to do....   :rofl:
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2018, 12:09:51 PM »
I’m not able to cancel the order on the kef speaker stands. I called SVS and Rythmik to discuss subs ....and even dual subs.  Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-opendrc-da8-floating-room-correction-dsp-8-out--230-336?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80. Of course, I’d buy used if available. That exceeds what Rick Craig would charge for one dsp sub.
Just wanted opinions about the use of an external dsp device and mic and the learning curve involved
Nick
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2018, 02:13:46 PM »
Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80.
What does the $500 represent? If that is cost if you go with a pair of Rythmik L12, that's money well spent. Great subs, I've used Rythmik since '04, so 14yr old subs still going strong.
Where would the dsp slot into system? I do not recommend for anything other than bass, your KEFs are well designed on/off axis and need no "correction". Bass is a totally different story. Some EQ is almost always better. Not a fan of "auto" EQ either, but for some folks it may prove the best option.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2018, 02:24:21 PM »
Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80.
What does the $500 represent? If that is cost if you go with a pair of Rythmik L12, that's money well spent. Great subs, I've used Rythmik since '04, so 14yr old subs still going strong.
Where would the dsp slot into system? I do not recommend for anything other than bass, your KEFs are well designed on/off axis and need no "correction". Bass is a totally different story. Some EQ is almost always better. Not a fan of "auto" EQ either, but for some folks it may prove the best option.

AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2018, 04:06:08 PM »
I’m not able to cancel the order on the kef speaker stands. I called SVS and Rythmik to discuss subs ....and even dual subs.  Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-opendrc-da8-floating-room-correction-dsp-8-out--230-336?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80. Of course, I’d buy used if available. That exceeds what Rick Craig would charge for one dsp sub.
Just wanted opinions about the use of an external dsp device and mic and the learning curve involved
Nick
hi nick,

assuming for discussion sake, that you would go w/a pair of subs placed as described - symmetrical, except the subs in a plane a bit forward of the kef's, i would recommend purchasing something like the mini-dsp only if you have a minimum 30 day trial period.  i say this because, in your situation, the improvements may not be worth it.  your placement sounds pretty decent, even if the subs would be a bit closer to the listening position than the kef's.

regarding learning curve, i am not familiar w/that particular product, but i can tell you that the deqx i own is not the most user friendly.  and, i did look at the minidsp a while back, thinking it might be more user-friendly, but my impressions were that it's not the case.  others who have direct experience w/it might want to chime in. 

and that particular unit looks to be digital input only?  how would you place it between your preamp and speakers/subs?  or would you only be running the subs thru it, and you'd be running the kef's full range?  while aj may be right about the kef's not really needing eq, if you're going to use an outboard box, you might want to consider something that allows you to actively cross over the amp that is driving the kef's  i think you'd find they (and their amp) to sound better if they don't have to see any frequencies below 60-80hz.  dbx makes some nice dsp crossovers, and you wouldn't have to eq the kef's if you didn't want to.  or, if you're really worried about phasing, just slide the subs back to the wall to be in line w/the kef's and minimize phase differences, and use something like a marchand x-over - high quality for the cost.  i'm using one now, because it sounds great, and i am too lazy to reprogram my deqx in my new space.  it's really not the most fun thing to do...

doug s.

Hi Doug,
The dual subs placement slightly forward of the kefs gives me a little wiggle room in case I go vinyl again and may need a bit of extra room for the TT. Otherwise, I’d be able to time align them with the kefs. I like the kefs as is and don’t see a need to make corrections for room anomalies, but heck, I don’t know enough right now. My thoughts would be just to subject the subs to dsp.
This does add up to some extra 💰 re the dsp thing and I find it quite annoying that this audio hobby costs me more than I want to spend 😳
I’m looking at a fair amount of YouTube videos on subs and some guys like Paul McGowan are easy to understand. I wouldn’t look forward to learning all about dsp software and having to take multiple measurements etc
Nick
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2018, 06:21:16 PM »
AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
Ok, for the same price I'd go with the Rythmik, but the SVS is no slouch. Your call. Rythmik goes deeper with more wallop, but you said you don't listen to classical/pipe organs stuff, so may be moot. Your back might prefer the SVS over the 2x weight Rythmik (bigger motor and linear PS vs switch mode). Don't worry about subs forward of KEFs. That's not how phase alignment works. The DSP can create a small delay to align, but the low pass filter itself is already doing that, so may be moot.
I'm not clear on your system architecture (preamp???) so where does the Minidsp slot? If you run LP, you ok with digitizing? Nothing wrong if DAC is transparent, but some folks balk at that.
If you have a dual out preamp, that opens a lot of possibilities. You could keep all as is, use 2nd output for DSP/bass only. Avoid any further DSP for the KEFs.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2018, 09:18:05 PM »
Hi Doug,
The dual subs placement slightly forward of the kefs gives me a little wiggle room in case I go vinyl again and may need a bit of extra room for the TT. Otherwise, I’d be able to time align them with the kefs. I like the kefs as is and don’t see a need to make corrections for room anomalies, but heck, I don’t know enough right now. My thoughts would be just to subject the subs to dsp.
This does add up to some extra 💰 re the dsp thing and I find it quite annoying that this audio hobby costs me more than I want to spend 😳
I’m looking at a fair amount of YouTube videos on subs and some guys like Paul McGowan are easy to understand. I wouldn’t look forward to learning all about dsp software and having to take multiple measurements etc
Nick
nick, i know you don't want to take a loss on stands you just bought, but if you sell them, so you can place the kef's directly on the subs, you won't need any time alignment and you won't need any dsp for that.  it might end up being cheaper.

for me, the best bang-for-buck if you're going for a pair of subs would be to remove all frequencies below ~80hz from the kef's and the amp driving them.  ask aj about his speakers w/built-in powered subs, and how they relieve the rest of the speaker and the amp driving it, from seeing the lower frequencies...  and ask charles about the rethm's, w/their active subwoofer built-in, and how it relieves the horn and horn's amp from seeing the lower frequencies.  ;)

when i first went to subs, w/an active outboard x-over, my main speakers were thiel 3.5's, which are -2db at 20hz.  well, besides getting better bass, the upper bass and lower midrange were also improved, w/the thiels and their amp being crossed over at 70hz.

doug s.

Doug,
I do expect very good things from adding a sub(s). I’m still liking the kefs even though I haven’t dialed them in completely and the new laminate floor doesn’t have an area rug yet. I’d like to keep things simple for sure. The stands are sitting in Vegas at the dealer’s place, so it’s doable.
Nick
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #162 on: July 18, 2018, 09:34:18 PM »
AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
Ok, for the same price I'd go with the Rythmik, but the SVS is no slouch. Your call. Rythmik goes deeper with more wallop, but you said you don't listen to classical/pipe organs stuff, so may be moot. Your back might prefer the SVS over the 2x weight Rythmik (bigger motor and linear PS vs switch mode). Don't worry about subs forward of KEFs. That's not how phase alignment works. The DSP can create a small delay to align, but the low pass filter itself is already doing that, so may be moot.
I'm not clear on your system architecture (preamp???) so where does the Minidsp slot? If you run LP, you ok with digitizing? Nothing wrong if DAC is transparent, but some folks balk at that.
If you have a dual out preamp, that opens a lot of possibilities. You could keep all as is, use 2nd output for DSP/bass only. Avoid any further DSP for the KEFs.

AJ,
I just recently got rid of my heavy SP Tech speakers and the heavy McCormack amp, so adding those rythmiks isn’t super appealing. The preamp is through Charles.  It’s the Audio Hungary APR 204 tube preamp and it only has one set of outs.
http://audiohungary.com/product/apr-204/16
Charles says it’s an excellent preamp, especially for the money. I looked at pres from Cary, K & K, Herron, Allnic and others and just decided to take a chance on this one. My system performs quite well as is and I got a nice discount from Charles.
The minidsp is an inexpensive option and maybe just getting one or two subs to start and see how I can integrate them is the easy way to start. As to playing LPs, it’s a long shot that I will get back into analog.
Nick
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2018, 06:56:53 AM »
Ok, sorry, I was going by your equipment list in signature. Well, if you don't mind a little smell of glue, you could get a pair of these:
https://www.parts-express.com/powered-dayton-audio-8-250-watt-compact-subwoofer-kit-with-built-in-dsp--300-7150
For $600 you would have a pair of very small, relatively light, but very potent little subs, including all DSP needed, high pass for your KEFs and plenty EQ.
You can always get a Umik https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-umik-1-omni-directional-usb-measurement-calibrated-microphone--230-332 and REW for measurements. Plenty of online tutorials, easy setup, < $100.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #164 on: July 19, 2018, 05:33:59 PM »
I called Rythmik again today and was lucky enough to talk to the owner, Brian Deng. Very nice guy. I asked about stacking the kefs on the Rythmiks using the isoacoustic stands and mentioned that the couch would somewhat block the left sub. He was somewhat concerned and suggested moving the couch back or placing each sub between the rack and each kef. He also said to test initially without using the iso stands on the sub. I’d think that would be too low, but didn’t discuss it further. He also said a symmetrical setup was not necessary and might not be best.
When I mentioned that 58 lbs is a bit heavy for me, he said it’s a typo and the weight is 47. That’s better 👍 There is a bit of a discount to buy two subs and I might take the plunge. The connections are line only and I’d need a y splitter. Brian said he’d help with connections and adjustments. I’d post a pic, but can’t lower the resolution on my iPhone
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