AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 07:55:38 AM

Title: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 07:55:38 AM
I've been living happily with my 2 way SP Techs for 8-9 years. My wife has enjoyed the sound, but always hated the looks... including the stands. Visually, my wife would like smaller speakers including smaller stands. I've never used a sub, but if I go smaller, it's a must. It would likely be a powered sub at that....maybe downfiring.
So assuming I don't get killed with selling my SP Techs, what are some bang for the buck 2 ways that might work for me? i listen to rock, folk, vocals, especially female, orchestral but not much classical. I enjoy a detailed, but not analytical sound. The Uber has been a huge help in providing more detail and taking the edge off.
Ive heard good things about Danny Ritchie's speakers, but I'm not into building kits. I don't have the skill set to cut wood and build cabinets. Due to $$ constraints, I'd probably purchase used. I'd also appreciate comments about subs. I would be using only one in keeping with the idea of maintaining a small footprint
Nick

PS   forgot to mention SP Techs are 12x21x16
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 15, 2017, 08:00:19 AM
Come to RC and listen to our Trinity.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 08:43:19 AM
Come to RC and listen to our Trinity.

Thanks, Hugh. Can you provide measurements?
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 15, 2017, 08:45:23 AM
Your ears are your best assets.   :-P

It's on our website.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 10:17:21 AM
That appears similar to the footprint of the SP Techs. If I switch, I would have to go smaller or the wife would not be happy  [-( [-(
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 15, 2017, 11:34:36 AM
I do have smaller ones from Onix.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on August 15, 2017, 11:45:40 AM
Tell her "no."

 :pop
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 15, 2017, 11:55:57 AM
Tell her "no."

 :pop

I like that. ;)
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 12:13:09 PM
Tell her "no."

 :pop

I like that. ;)

Tell her what???  [-o< [-o<
Actually, I'm lucky to have her and I'd like to have a smaller setup as well. She's been great with my hobby.... I mean obssession. I will check out the Onix
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 15, 2017, 12:22:15 PM
Tell her "no."

 :pop

I like that. ;)

Tell her what???  [-o< [-o<
Actually, I'm lucky to have her and I'd like to have a smaller setup as well. She's been great with my hobby.... I mean obssession. I will check out the Onix
Nick

Tell her YOU love HER. ;)
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 01:16:24 PM
Tell her "no."

 :pop

I like that. ;)

Tell her what???  [-o< [-o<
Actually, I'm lucky to have her and I'd like to have a smaller setup as well. She's been great with my hobby.... I mean obssession. I will check out the Onix
Nick

Tell her YOU love HER. ;)


Ok, I love audio...I mean YOU. Got it  :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on August 15, 2017, 01:25:56 PM
Tell her YOU love HER. ;)

Yes, definitely do that!

Then order these...
(http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/pics/200912_revel_front.jpg)

Console her by promising to leave the grills on when her friends visit.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on August 15, 2017, 01:48:37 PM
What about these?
(http://legacyaudio.com/images/made/images/uploads/products/Fronts-Mains/Calibre_Sapelle_web_250_254.png)

http://legacyaudio.com/products/view/calibre/
3 way + 2 passive radiators, standmount. Don't need a sub. Probably not much smaller than Timepieces, but slightly prettier.

If you have to go small, "The One" and "The 1+1" by Audience are worth checking out.

You can hide a subwoofer anywhere in the room as long as it crosses at or below 80Hz, and it's closer to your ears than the main speakers, so you can adjust the delay on the subs to match the mains arrival time. For music, it's gotta be a sealed sub. Ideally you'd have 4 subs hidden around the room so they would even out the bass response and minimize the bass modes. "Swarm" style. There are some nice in-wall subs available now that are virtually invisible with paintable metal grill.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: shadowlight on August 15, 2017, 02:10:44 PM
Would Kef LS50 work?  I have not heard them but they seem to get high praise on the net :)
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 08:29:05 PM
Tell her YOU love HER. ;)

Yes, definitely do that!

Then order these...
(http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/pics/200912_revel_front.jpg)

Console her by promising to leave the grills on when her friends visit.


Mucho cojones, Don Ricardo......
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 15, 2017, 11:26:25 PM
Would Kef LS50 work?  I have not heard them but they seem to get high praise on the net :)

D, yes there's lots of praise indeed. They are sold on Amazon and are $1,500. I read at least 50 reviews and a fair number of those were by seasoned audiophiles. It's lighter and smaller than my SP Techs and the bass response isn't comparable either, so there's a definite commitment to using a sub.  The Kefs are 85 dB sensitivity and 8 ohms.

One final thing....they look very similar to the SPs as well......
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 16, 2017, 12:05:12 AM
What about these?
(http://legacyaudio.com/images/made/images/uploads/products/Fronts-Mains/Calibre_Sapelle_web_250_254.png)

http://legacyaudio.com/products/view/calibre/
3 way + 2 passive radiators, standmount. Don't need a sub. Probably not much smaller than Timepieces, but slightly prettier.

If you have to go small, "The One" and "The 1+1" by Audience are worth checking out.

You can hide a subwoofer anywhere in the room as long as it crosses at or below 80Hz, and it's closer to your ears than the main speakers, so you can adjust the delay on the subs to match the mains arrival time. For music, it's gotta be a sealed sub. Ideally you'd have 4 subs hidden around the room so they would even out the bass response and minimize the bass modes. "Swarm" style. There are some nice in-wall subs available now that are virtually invisible with paintable metal grill.

Those are beautiful speakers from a great designer. But they are $5,500 and way out of my league  I will look at the audience speakers tomorrow..getting late here. There is no way I can do 4 subs and 2 would be max. Also, they would very likely have to be behind the main speakers. it would be the best i could do
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Triode Pete on August 16, 2017, 06:44:40 AM
I have heard these at many shows and they're pretty amazing...

http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/brio_b.php (http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/brio_b.php)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ty6zbbOZL._SL1500_.jpg)


I ended picking up a brand-new Brio Trio set from Carl Marchisotto at his factory here on Long Island. If anyone is interested, they're still sealed in their original boxes... I have too much gear & too little time...

PM me if interested in a killer deal on superb, brand-new speakers...

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: spm3 on August 16, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
I went to this audio store yesterday - Park Avenue Audio - in NYC: http://www.parkavenueaudio.com/
It is a great store and the owner is super nice.
I was ready to spend like 3k on a new streamer and DAC, but he saved me 2.5k by saying I dont need any of that stuff because what I have now is the same or better! What a nice dude :D

Anyway, he showed us these small speakers he carries and I was blown away at how good it sounded for the size. And NO external sub was necessary!!! Had pretty good base.
The company is called: Boenicke Audio. And the model we listened to was their smallest one: W5 - http://boenicke-audio.ch/w5_c/
Highly recommend it, and you can listen to it at that store. I recommend both the speaker and the audio store haha :)

Shawn
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 16, 2017, 07:07:41 AM
I went to this audio store yesterday - Park Avenue Audio - in NYC: http://www.parkavenueaudio.com/
It is a great store and the owner is super nice.
I was ready to spend like 3k on a new streamer and DAC, but he saved me 2.5k by saying I dont need any of that stuff because what I have now is the same or better! What a nice dude :D

Anyway, he showed us these small speakers he carries and I was blown away at how good it sounded for the size. And NO external sub was necessary!!! Had pretty good base.
The company is called: Boenicke Audio. And the model we listened to was their smallest one: W5 - http://boenicke-audio.ch/w5_c/
Highly recommend it, and you can listen to it at that store. I recommend both the speaker and the audio store haha :)

Shawn

Those speakers are very good BUT they are not cheap either.

A long while back, we were considering them for The US market.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: topround on August 16, 2017, 08:22:00 AM
I would love to hear those speakers
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 16, 2017, 09:34:34 AM
I have heard these at many shows and they're pretty amazing...

http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/brio_b.php (http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/brio_b.php)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ty6zbbOZL._SL1500_.jpg)


I ended picking up a brand-new Brio Trio set from Carl Marchisotto at his factory here on Long Island. If anyone is interested, they're still sealed in their original boxes... I have too much gear & too little time...

PM me if interested in a killer deal on superb, brand-new speakers...

Cheers,
Pete

Pete, Pls shoot me a pm re the price
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 16, 2017, 09:46:52 AM
I went to this audio store yesterday - Park Avenue Audio - in NYC: http://www.parkavenueaudio.com/
It is a great store and the owner is super nice.
I was ready to spend like 3k on a new streamer and DAC, but he saved me 2.5k by saying I dont need any of that stuff because what I have now is the same or better! What a nice dude :D

Anyway, he showed us these small speakers he carries and I was blown away at how good it sounded for the size. And NO external sub was necessary!!! Had pretty good base.
The company is called: Boenicke Audio. And the model we listened to was their smallest one: W5 - http://boenicke-audio.ch/w5_c/
Highly recommend it, and you can listen to it at that store. I recommend both the speaker and the audio store haha :)

Shawn


Thanks for the link, Shawn. It's probably more than I want to spend, but I sent Boeicke an email about the W5 and pricing. I'm on the opposite side of the country...in So Utah within a couple of hours of Las Vegas
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 17, 2017, 03:30:48 PM
I went to this audio store yesterday - Park Avenue Audio - in NYC: http://www.parkavenueaudio.com/
It is a great store and the owner is super nice.
I was ready to spend like 3k on a new streamer and DAC, but he saved me 2.5k by saying I dont need any of that stuff because what I have now is the same or better! What a nice dude :D

Anyway, he showed us these small speakers he carries and I was blown away at how good it sounded for the size. And NO external sub was necessary!!! Had pretty good base.
The company is called: Boenicke Audio. And the model we listened to was their smallest one: W5 - http://boenicke-audio.ch/w5_c/
Highly recommend it, and you can listen to it at that store. I recommend both the speaker and the audio store haha :)

Shawn


Thanks for the link, Shawn. It's probably more than I want to spend, but I sent Boeicke an email about the W5 and pricing. I'm on the opposite side of the country...in So Utah within a couple of hours of Las Vegas
Nick

Hi Shawn,
I did get a hold of Boenicke and the price is in the $3 to $5 k range. Beautiful looking and wonderful sounding, I'm sure. But about that little thing called 💰💰...
You could start the "Nick B wants these speakers" fund 😀
On another note, I'm in touch with Pete about the Nola's...very good price
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on August 17, 2017, 06:25:04 PM
Nick I have been living with a pair of Nola Boxers for just about three years now and I am very happy with them. The pair he is selling is supped to be even better and I would have jumped all over them except for the fact that he told ne about them about a month after I bought two Carver subwoofers and at that point changing out the entire speaker system would have not done much to promote domestic harmony.  :roll:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on August 17, 2017, 06:34:25 PM
Tell her "no."

 :pop

I like that. ;)

Tell her what???  [-o< [-o<
Actually, I'm lucky to have her and I'd like to have a smaller setup as well. She's been great with my hobby.... I mean obssession. I will check out the Onix
Nick

Tell her YOU love HER. ;)

Tell her you love her and you think she lost weight.  ;)
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 17, 2017, 08:35:11 PM
Nick I have been living with a pair of Nola Boxers for just about three years now and I am very happy with them. The pair he is selling is supped to be even better and I would have jumped all over them except for the fact that he told ne about them about a month after I bought two Carver subwoofers and at that point changing out the entire speaker system would have not done much to promote domestic harmony.  :roll:

Tom,
Gotta pay attention to promote the domestic harmony thing! I read up on the Trios and some here praise them as well. My SPs have 8" mid woofers and the response is to the low 30s. The Trio has one powered sub , 8" driver. As I've mentioned, I've never used a sub, so the concern is am I going to lose a bit of bass, especially in having just one 8 inches.
I don't want to go "sideways" in performance. Has to be an increase. I am also thinking about computer audio. Can likely do one or the other, but not both 😢
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on August 17, 2017, 08:48:24 PM
When I got the Boxers Nola was had stopped producing subs., so I asked Carl Marchisotto what kind of sub he would recommend for use with them. His response was to use the a sub with the smallest cone I could find because the woofer in the Boxers was so fast that a sub with a 10" or larger cone would not be able  to keep up with the Boxers and that the lower quanitity of bass would be more than offset the the higher level of integration you would get from a small cone sub. So I took his advise and ended up finding to Carver True Subwoofer Super Jrs. That gave me the speed to match the Boxers, a bit more output becuase of the stereo subs and a much more balanced bass presentation across the soundstage.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 18, 2017, 01:00:02 AM
When I got the Boxers Nola was had stopped producing subs., so I asked Carl Marchisotto what kind of sub he would recommend for use with them. His response was to use the a sub with the smallest cone I could find because the woofer in the Boxers was so fast that a sub with a 10" or larger cone would not be able  to keep up with the Boxers and that the lower quanitity of bass would be more than offset the the higher level of integration you would get from a small cone sub. So I took his advise and ended up finding to Carver True Subwoofer Super Jrs. That gave me the speed to match the Boxers, a bit more output becuase of the stereo subs and a much more balanced bass presentation across the soundstage.

Tom,
Thanks much for your input. I read more about the Trios and listened to Peter Breunigars interview with Carl. What an interesting and impressive guy. He worked for Dahlquist in the 70s. As you mention, the use of a smaller 8" driver for speed and the use of paper cones for consistency of sound. Spot on imaging and huge soundstage. Non fatiguing top end and a small footprint. Excellent harmonics, analog like sound. Lots to like. This would be a step up from my SP Techs. So I will very likely pull the trigger on these.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 18, 2017, 12:30:35 PM
I just sent Pete a PM. I'm getting the Nola's. This should be a perfect fit for my situation.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dflee on August 18, 2017, 02:42:28 PM
Congrats on the new Nolas.
Keep us posted on what you think.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on August 18, 2017, 08:13:44 PM
I just sent Pete a PM. I'm getting the Nola's. This should be a perfect fit for my situation.

Enjoy   :beer:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 18, 2017, 08:50:05 PM
Thanks, really looking forward to them. Now the adventure of selling a few things...
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on August 19, 2017, 02:02:17 PM
Thanks, really looking forward to them. Now the adventure of selling a few things...

..... my least favorite part of the hobby.  :roll:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 19, 2017, 11:05:57 PM
Thanks, really looking forward to them. Now the adventure of selling a few things...

..... my least favorite part of the hobby.  :roll:

Yes, least favorite indeed. I haven't found a site yet that gives me an idea what to sell the SP Techs for. Anyone have suggestions? I don't  want to pay a subscription just for one item
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: topround on August 20, 2017, 04:04:41 AM
go to audio asylum trader its free or audio circle where Jim Smith started before his demise, there might still be people on that site that remember those speakers....
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 20, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
go to audio asylum trader its free or audio circle where Jim Smith started before his demise, there might still be people on that site that remember those speakers....

Mike,
Do you mean Bob Smith? He had quite a following at AC. Which reminds me of Double Ugly, who was one of his biggest supporters.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on August 20, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
I seem to remember them selling used for 1500 a wayz back.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: S Clark on August 20, 2017, 06:29:13 PM
Would Kef LS50 work?  I have not heard them but they seem to get high praise on the net :)
A friend brought his up for a weekend and compared to my GR-Research N-2X kit speaker.  I liked the GR product better, better instrument placement detail. 
Now, AJ in Fl over on another audio site makes a damn fine speaker using a cheaper version of the LS50 driver.  KEF put him out of business, but you might contact him anyway. 
Other than that, I've heard a little Revel bookshelf that were really impressive.  Detail, space, soundstage... but they weren't cheap.  I'll  find the model and get back. 
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 20, 2017, 08:06:40 PM
I just sent Pete the $$. It was a very good price, but I'll admit I'm a bit apprehensive as the SP Techs sound very good.  I'll also say I was apprehensive about getting the Uber and it turned out great!!!
Within the last 1 1/2 years, I've made a lot of changes and every one has been positive
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dBe on August 20, 2017, 10:33:26 PM
I just sent Pete a PM. I'm getting the Nola's. This should be a perfect fit for my situation.
:thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on August 21, 2017, 09:08:46 AM
Now, AJ in Fl over on another audio site makes a damn fine speaker using a cheaper version of the LS50 driver.  KEF put him out of business, but you might contact him anyway.   
Hi Scott, I'm here too :-).
KEF indeed put the kibosh on that model, but I'm still in business. I'll have a replacement eventually (ironically, was testing a new coax driver last night). I don't do Soundfield for a living, so I move at a rather leisurely pace. :D

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: S Clark on August 21, 2017, 10:37:57 AM
Hi there AJ.  I haven't really hung around over here enough to know who's here and who's not, but I'm changing that.  So many of the knowledgeable guys don't show up over at AC anymore, so it's time for a move.   :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Hugh on August 21, 2017, 10:44:08 AM
Hi there AJ.  I haven't really hung around over here enough to know who's here and who's not, but I'm changing that.  So many of the knowledgeable guys don't show up over at AC anymore, so it's time for a move.   :thumb:

 :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on August 21, 2017, 11:44:04 AM
Hi there AJ.  I haven't really hung around over here enough to know who's here and who's not, but I'm changing that.  So many of the knowledgeable guys don't show up over at AC anymore, so it's time for a move.   :thumb:

Thanks for giving AN a try!!
Nick B
Administrator
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dBe on August 21, 2017, 09:59:31 PM
Now, AJ in Fl over on another audio site makes a damn fine speaker using a cheaper version of the LS50 driver.  KEF put him out of business, but you might contact him anyway.   
Hi Scott, I'm here too :-).
KEF indeed put the kibosh on that model, but I'm still in business. I'll have a replacement eventually (ironically, was testing a new coax driver last night). I don't do Soundfield for a living, so I move at a rather leisurely pace. :D

cheers,

AJ
Glad you are here, AJ.  Any additional info on that speaker?
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dBe on August 21, 2017, 10:01:42 PM
Would Kef LS50 work?  I have not heard them but they seem to get high praise on the net :)
A friend brought his up for a weekend and compared to my GR-Research N-2X kit speaker.  I liked the GR product better, better instrument placement detail. 
Now, AJ in Fl over on another audio site makes a damn fine speaker using a cheaper version of the LS50 driver.  KEF put him out of business, but you might contact him anyway. 
Other than that, I've heard a little Revel bookshelf that were really impressive.  Detail, space, soundstage... but they weren't cheap.  I'll  find the model and get back.
Kick Danny's butt (easy on his shoulder) and get him over here!  I've tried...
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on August 22, 2017, 05:08:55 AM
Glad you are here, AJ.  Any additional info on that speaker?
Just continued evolution of M1, i.e. a coax + sub in one box. The KEF driver design was SOTA, so tough act to follow. Throwing in a replacement for the sake of sales is a non option for anything carrying my name. That's why I have a real job. :D
PE dropping their square boxes for curved sides only didn't help either, when it comes to placing a plate amp on the back...and keeping a lid on costs.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on August 22, 2017, 12:17:34 PM
I had AJ's design for awhile. Great speaker. Talented Man that AJ.




charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on August 31, 2017, 08:00:35 AM
hi aj!

yes, i heard your m1 and the 1812 at the capital audio fest a while back; both fantastic.  glad to hear you're still doing your thing!   
Hi Doug, good to see you here (and there), thanks, glad you enjoyed them. Capfest was one of my most enjoyable shows, many friends up that way too.
I understand KEFs reasoning, the "spare" driver supply were intended for replacement parts, not DIYers! I also understand not wanting to sell competitors hard earned research technology. I respect their decision. Yep, too bad for manufacturer's like me, but DIYers can still yank the drivers from finished speakers if so desired.

but, if you're using the seas prestige coax, (looks like it in your website pic), i trust that you will still have something special for your typical "loss leader" price for that product!  :)  and, your new 1812 looks fabulous - i can only imagine how good it must be if it's better than the 1st iteration i heard.  ;)  is it coming to the dc show in the  fall?
The Seas remains in contention. It's a pretty nice driver. Biggest problem was PE losing cabinet maker, then following up by dropping straight side box for only curved narrow rear cabinet. No one made a 4.5" wide plate amp to drive the sub. We'll see later this year if one does.
Yes the final version of the 1812 sounds a bit better than the one you heard. Never say never, but no plans for DC..or any show in near future. It was fun, but a major PITA, given it is not my mainstay, but just a "side" business. I've gotten a lot busier and older/grumpy. Almost like Charles  :rofl:
The plan is to shift from shows, to producing "touring" models of each speaker. Shows are great, but they still don't tell how a speaker sounds in your room/system.

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on October 13, 2017, 12:34:04 PM
I have been laying very low for some time as I had a complication from knee surgery the beginning of August. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. But the rehab....getting my range of motion back...is getting better. So yesterday a friend Gary drove up from Las Vegas to hook up the Nola’s for me. The instructions are sparse. Both Gary and I commented on that. The placement is not ideal as I have a big cabinet right now and the sub is supposed to be placed about 38” behind the front of the Nola satellites. Initially, we weren’t as precise with placement and it appeared the sound was coming from a tunnel. We then tried to get max distance of maybe 18” and it sounded better. Playing them this morning, the top end is a bit hot, so I’ll keep putting lots of hours on them. I must say they present a large soundstage and sound pretty good. It also makes me appreciate how good my SP Techs are. Also, I now have one 8” woofer vs the two 8” drivers I had with the SP Techs. Lots to think about
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on October 17, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
Putting more hours on the Nola’s. That upper midrange glare is still present. Harshness on violins, female vocals....it’s just too much. After I installed the Uber, that tendency was gone with my SP Techs. The Nola’s are placed similar in the room. I haven’t really fiddled with the sub gain and crossover controls. I would think that would not have any effect on this problem.
Does anyone know the particulars on the 3.5 inch drivers in the Nola satellites? ....who makes them, what are the break in characteristics.....
I’ve reread this thread a few times...some speakers are too big like the SP Techs, too heavy 65 lbs etc
I am intrigued with the Boenicke W5s and the Legacy Calibre. Only way to swing that is buying used.
The Danny Ritchie NX 2 is intriguing...great price, better than my SPs per Danny and he was buds with Bob Smith, the SP Timepiece designer.
I should mention that I like to crank ‘em up....high 70s to mid 80s at about 10 feet.
Any comments appreciated
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Scottdazzle on October 17, 2017, 04:30:36 PM
The Fritz Carrera 7BE is the finest 2-way bookshelf speaker I have ever heard. I have a pair if anyone near DC wants to give them a listen. Berylium tweeter that is detailed but not bright with no hint of sibilance. Revelator 7-inch mid woofer that goes low with authority. Clean, open midrange without of boxiness. Huge soundstage. Very nice cabinetry. And they present any easy load to the amp. Fritzspeakers deserve a lot more fame than they get. If any of the mainstream companies made them they'd get full-page ads and cost $8000 a pair. 
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on October 17, 2017, 07:06:38 PM
Putting more hours on the Nola’s. That upper midrange glare is still present. Harshness on violins, female vocals....it’s just too much. After I installed the Uber, that tendency was gone with my SP Techs. The Nola’s are placed similar in the room. I haven’t really fiddled with the sub gain and crossover controls. I would think that would not have any effect on this problem.
Does anyone know the particulars on the 3.5 inch drivers in the Nola satellites? ....who makes them, what are the break in characteristics....."

They look to me like the same Tymphany TC9FD18 coated paper cone drivers that I'm using in my line arrays. Mine are 8 ohms with foam gasket on the frame. The Nola drivers are, according to this thread, (https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/a-novelty-project.109195/) the 16 ohm version without foam gasket.

As for break in, the treble shouldn't change much and will settle down quickly. The bass is what takes some time (50hours) to sound loose and open, as well as getting the deepest bass. These drivers are known to sound pretty good top to bottom as single drivers or multiple drivers per speaker. They don't have a reputation for rough treble. You can do a quick experiment by putting a couple small pieces of blue tape on the center dust caps. I think the blue tape will peel off easily without damaging the driver paint. That will damp any high frequency misbehavior of the dust cap if it's bending, but I doubt it, Tymphany (formerly Peerless, Vifa) is solid engineering.

Quote
I’ve reread this thread a few times...some speakers are too big like the SP Techs, too heavy 65 lbs etc
I am intrigued with the Boenicke W5s and the Legacy Calibre. Only way to swing that is buying used.

Calibre is just as big as Timepieces. Calibre will bring upgraditis. It's not available used yet as it is too new, and there are few Legacys are available used now anyway, they're keepers.

Quote
The Danny Ritchie NX 2 is intriguing...great price, better than my SPs per Danny and he was buds with Bob Smith, the SP Timepiece designer.
...not

Quote
I should mention that I like to crank ‘em up....high 70s to mid 80s at about 10 feet.
Any comments appreciated
Nick

Keep the SPs!
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on October 17, 2017, 08:07:12 PM
Thanks for the replies.  Much appreciated. Thanks for finding the driver info, Rich. Not sure why it all didn’t work out, but with much effort, I got my SPs back on the pedestals and we are happily coexisting. In addition to the harshness, I wasn’t a fan of having a sub...more wires, power cord etc. Fiddling with adjustments I can’t easily see. But I’m glad I tried the Nola’s.
It was interesting looking up the various recommended speakers. I read up on each one. I’ve heard of Fritz stuff for years and the write ups on the Carrera 7BE are great and the description regarding tonality and vocals is enticing. Maybe down the road when the used price is reasonable..... Really hadn’t heard of the Philharmonic Audio stuff. Will read a little more about them.
Anyway, that’s the scoop.
Now to evaluate my amp and dac.....
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on October 18, 2017, 06:45:10 PM
They look to me like the same Tymphany TC9FD18
If that is the case and they didn't use a notch and/or shelving filter, the peak between 8-9k would add an edginess and sibilance on some material.
(https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/TC9FD18-08-curve.jpg)

Keep the SPs!
Agree
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 19, 2018, 05:22:57 PM
Well, I bought used KEF LS 50s for a great price of $750 including shipping. Seems the guy is moving overseas and didn’t want to incur the shipping costs. I also saw a used ATC SCM 19 for $2,500, but that’s way more of a risk. Both are Stereophile Class A LF (limited frequency) fwiw.

My thought regarding the KEFs were that they will likely be similar in performance to my old SP Techs, but probably not have quite the bass response. They are also inefficient at 85 db and I may be stuck needing the power of my McCormack DNA 1 Gold. But that is not a bad amp to be stuck with.....

After all the searching, emails and phone calls that I made, I did make the decision that I wanted exemplary treble. My hunch is that the LS 50s won’t quite hit the mark in that regard. If they do, I may add a compact sub. REL does have a chart what sub to mate with the LS 50s and that’s at least a starting point. Buying these also allows me to sell my turntable and maybe my phono preamp to free up some cash. If I do audition new stuff, it would likely be the Aurum Cantus and/or the Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones. I sure like the idea of a trial period. I learned a lot about subs and tweeters during the search time. I’ll likely make separate posts about those under a different category later.

To all those who chimed in with thoughts and suggestions, I really appreciate the help
Nick.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on March 19, 2018, 08:00:27 PM
Congrats on the LS50s Nick. I've been curious about those, but never heard them. You will like the coherency or coax driver, and the clean bass of the very optimized reflex port. It is a VERY high technology design. With enough power they always seem to impress. Your amp will be perfect for those.

Did jbtrio have the MicroOnes? I think we talked about those here in AN a couple 3 years ago, do a search.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 19, 2018, 08:56:37 PM
Congrats on the LS50s Nick. I've been curious about those, but never heard them. You will like the coherency or coax driver, and the clean bass of the very optimized reflex port. It is a VERY high technology design. With enough power they always seem to impress. Your amp will be perfect for those.

Did jbtrio have the MicroOnes? I think we talked about those here in AN a couple 3 years ago, do a search.

Thanks, Rich. I read a couple of threads that mentioned the Micro Ones back in 2011 and 2013 iirc. I think that jbtrio did have them as it appears he made a recommendation to another member. I’m looking forward to the LS 50s and just having some decent sound....sorry YouTube.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 19, 2018, 10:17:45 PM
Well, I bought used KEF LS 50s for a great price of $750 including shipping. Seems the guy is moving overseas and didn’t want to incur the shipping costs. I also saw a used ATC SCM 19 for $2,500, but that’s way more of a risk. Both are Stereophile Class A LF (limited frequency) fwiw.

My thought regarding the KEFs were that they will likely be similar in performance to my old SP Techs, but probably not have quite the bass response. They are also inefficient at 85 db and I may be stuck needing the power of my McCormack DNA 1. But that is not a bad amp to be stuck with.....

After all the searching, emails and phone calls that I made, I did make the decision that I wanted exemplary treble. My hunch is that the LS 50s won’t quite hit the mark in that regard. If they do, I may add a compact sub. REL does have a chart what sub to mate with the LS 50s and that’s at least a starting point. Buying these also allows me to sell my turntable and maybe my phono preamp to free up some cash. If I do audition new stuff, it would likely be the Aurum Cantus and/or the Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones. I sure like the idea of a trial period. I learned a lot about subs and tweeters during the search time. I’ll likely make separate posts about those under a different category later.

To all those who chimed in with thoughts and suggestions, I really appreciate the help
Nick.
congrats on the purchase!  i think that, in general, especially if you're not exactly sure what you want, that buying used is always the best bet, because you won't ever take a big financial bath.  re: subs, give serious consideration to the rythmik L12's, at your  size/price point.  here's one case where it may not be so bad to buy new, just because of the price/performance ratio, and you may have a long wait to find a used L12.  spend twice as much on a rel - even used - and i doubt you will get performance as good.  and, you can buy from ascend acoustics and and get free in-home trial.  you'd be out return shipping, if you decided to send 'em back.  the oak finish is the same price as on rythmik's site; but the matte finish is a little cheaper on the rythmik site.  not sure if buying direct from rythmik will give you the in-home trial.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/l12.html (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/l12.html)

also, for used, i would look into the newer definitive technology subercube line of subs.  again, good performance for the price.  and relatively common enough that you could find a nice one used for not a lot of $$$.

and, coincidentally, i think you might enjoy checking out this pic - just last night, i finally got my system set up in the main room.  no, the oris horns and custom modded klipsch lascala bass-bins are still in the basement.  no, the piega's are in the bedroom.  no, the gemme tanto's are still in boxes, in the basement, as well.  no, i haven't set up the deqx; i am using my marchand outboard active x-over.  but the recently refurb'd and porzilli-modded ma333r is up, the vmps larger's are in place being driven by my electrocompaniet aw75dmb's, the Cinepro PowerPro 20 (never before used!) is sending balanced power to the amps and x-over, which frees up the furman balanced power conditioner for the preamp and front end gear, (along with other misc lab grade isolation transformers and a custom felix). and the mesa baron is running, set at 80wpc - 1/3 pentode - 2/3 triode setting, with 0db negative feedback.  check out the main monitors being used, that the baron is driving...   8)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9SRyOs_ziKI03e7aQyv-vm565-epwvN8FXilUz8s9Etc6KkWe8Z2Esh1wfy6kBoHJ3W4QB8CtAWU8KHHe6MhV-9AH77iwk2-irCQmtNtzY84hO-Nua7ptOpMXCYmsOK75NTO52H93IEQYm1gLxctfP3l2M0gtoENFxpEYaIsvhJj9G6J709Y16sgZLH0KmgbNviA53ubukJlXw5quQFtI0iebrQVgqw5ZcmG3t-_6xR3aircrHVGS2M0KEz5uL5gIBl_2-MRdHmSlQMe4hWtWMfBAKA4ANxJjjXfq4MLqoQHUvj4rWw445LMOVW-UHSmQIntPabIu485kVpnIpJCbUJkyo9MWl457Yqm-tWB9htZWTJv3mJ1As6JN7LfJiAd1znYoTzjYEKUm7fU2_QKarYUUAeJf-Cgl509r--NraKo9RWiulLgOcEMHxzMzfFPQ2mH0wlN5heT6ajkkIZzjfsLGniFjRY-14CA3id0EPRqgq9Pg_3AQMD5JmUfSeEfH-QCFpJqtvqKDVHDcwDLlWRmIyit817lnF0vrKQ1lZiL3VangiNiHHDF30RlzZeAinZppBDp9vD0mOdA06sowRCHvu5XZORznR6xsjs=w1266-h700-no)

enjoy the new speakers; i really think you will.  i'll be surprised if you don't find need for a sub.  but i will also be surprised if you think they're deficient in any other area - including the treble.  all the hype about 'em is not just hype, imo.  not sure why this allows you to sell your turntable and maybe your phono preamp, tho - i'd think that it would make you want to buy more vinyl!   :D

doug s.

Thanks, Doug. You really contributed a lot with your suggestions. Very much appreciated! If the treble is as good as you imply, I’ll definitely add a sub. Now as to subs, I still want a smaller one than the Rythmik. I am still trying to downsize. I was on the Definitive Technology site and the Supercube 2000 is just the right size and price. Only problem is the LFE connection for a receiver. I’m not a REL enthusiast...I simply like that they have a small footprint and the speakon connector and single wire and ever so simple connection to the amp is great. No extra 6’ ic’s needed. I’ll do some more searching and maybe some other companies connect the same way that the RELs do.
https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/rel-t-5i-subwoofer
As to selling my analog gear, some audio purchases have left me a bit short of funds and the sale(s) would help out. My wife would be thrilled...and actually me as well....to get rid of 500 CDs and maybe 600 albums. And the Basis TT is one heavy beast. It’s all part if the downsizing thing. The more we do it, the better we feel. Cant say I miss one thing we’ve given away, BUT the analog rig I’d miss even though I haven’t played an album in years.
Nick
PS I kept looking for a used Boenicke W5, but never came across one. That one I certainly would have bought immediately. Oh, your monitor sure looks real familiar 😃😃
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: P.I. on March 20, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
The Fritz Carrera 7BE is the finest 2-way bookshelf speaker I have ever heard. I have a pair if anyone near DC wants to give them a listen. Berylium tweeter that is detailed but not bright with no hint of sibilance. Revelator 7-inch mid woofer that goes low with authority. Clean, open midrange without of boxiness. Huge soundstage. Very nice cabinetry. And they present any easy load to the amp. Fritzspeakers deserve a lot more fame than they get. If any of the mainstream companies made them they'd get full-page ads and cost $8000 a pair.
Howdy, Scott!
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on March 20, 2018, 06:50:07 PM
The LS-50s are great speakers. I've heard them do some amazing things for something that small in size.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 20, 2018, 08:54:24 PM
The LS-50s are great speakers. I've heard them do some amazing things for something that small in size.

At a show or someone’s home? My experience is YouTube videos
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on March 21, 2018, 03:58:38 AM
The LS-50s are great speakers. I've heard them do some amazing things for something that small in size.

At a show or someone’s home? My experience is YouTube videos

In a showroom at an old fashioned brick and mortar high end audio store.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 21, 2018, 03:14:35 PM
The Fritz Carrera 7BE is the finest 2-way bookshelf speaker I have ever heard. I have a pair if anyone near DC wants to give them a listen. Berylium tweeter that is detailed but not bright with no hint of sibilance. Revelator 7-inch mid woofer that goes low with authority. Clean, open midrange without of boxiness. Huge soundstage. Very nice cabinetry. And they present any easy load to the amp. Fritzspeakers deserve a lot more fame than they get. If any of the mainstream companies made them they'd get full-page ads and cost $8000 a pair.
Howdy, Scott!

Sigh....don’t doubt it’s superb, but $3,500 was the max I was willing to go and I wasn’t ready to pull the trigger. Fritz had a beautiful walnut BE for me and promised a follow up phone call to discuss particulars, but he didn’t call and so the momentum of the deal was lost.....
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 21, 2018, 06:54:28 PM
Thanks, Doug. You really contributed a lot with your suggestions. Very much appreciated! If the treble is as good as you imply, I’ll definitely add a sub. Now as to subs, I still want a smaller one than the Rythmik. I am still trying to downsize. I was on the Definitive Technology site and the Supercube 2000 is just the right size and price. Only problem is the LFE connection for a receiver. I’m not a REL enthusiast...I simply like that they have a small footprint and the speakon connector and single wire and ever so simple connection to the amp is great. No extra 6’ ic’s needed. I’ll do some more searching and maybe some other companies connect the same way that the RELs do.
https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/rel-t-5i-subwoofer
As to selling my analog gear, some audio purchases have left me a bit short of funds and the sale(s) would help out. My wife would be thrilled...and actually me as well....to get rid of 500 CDs and maybe 600 albums. And the Basis TT is one heavy beast. It’s all part if the downsizing thing. The more we do it, the better we feel. Cant say I miss one thing we’ve given away, BUT the analog rig I’d miss even though I haven’t played an album in years.
Nick
PS I kept looking for a used Boenicke W5, but never came across one. That one I certainly would have bought immediately. Oh, your monitor sure looks real familiar 😃😃
re: subs, i think the def tech supercube 2000 is way too primitive in its amplification/electronics.  if you're wanting smaller than the rythmik L2, look at the def tech supercube 4000.  maybe a bit bigger than the rel's you were looking at. but still on the small side, at ~13" x 12" x 13".  rel is selling them new on their website at $600 (25%) off.

or, buy today, for $500:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183137069274?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/183137069274?rmvSB=true)
or, used, but includes wireless kit:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/162948280334?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/162948280334?rmvSB=true)

or, get one of these sellers to accept less, based on the above, and that the mfr is asking $600 shipped:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173208794419?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173208794419?rmvSB=true)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183059879748?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/183059879748?rmvSB=true)

and, regarding subwoofer connections, an inexpensive ic to a sub's power amp is better than an inexpensive speaker wire to a sub's hi-level input.  in most cases, it will sound better using the sub's line input.  less internal electronics work needed by the sub's amp/crossover..

another non-rel/non-rythmik option:
https://www.svsound.com/collections/outlet-specials/products/sb-1000-black-ash-outlet-1 (https://www.svsound.com/collections/outlet-specials/products/sb-1000-black-ash-outlet-1)
https://www.svsound.com/collections/outlet-specials/products/sb-1000-piano-gloss-outlet-1152 (https://www.svsound.com/collections/outlet-specials/products/sb-1000-piano-gloss-outlet-1152)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/152908215128?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/152908215128?rmvSB=true)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352172736901?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/352172736901?rmvSB=true)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173158485967?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173158485967?rmvSB=true)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/162902688865?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/162902688865?rmvSB=true) (this is the cheapest, not used)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112871365176?rmvSB=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/112871365176?rmvSB=true) (this is the cheapest, at least so far..)

or:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=Sunfire+subwoofer&_sop=15 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=Sunfire+subwoofer&_sop=15)
(too many for me to search thru...)

re: speakers in general, at  some point try to listen to dennis murphy's philharmonic audio speakers.  just unreal performance for the price, as i have said before.  i heard his philharmonic audio 3's, which were truly mind blowing; as well as the phenomenal "slims tower" (no longer listed on his site).  it's my understanding that the philharmonitor has taken its place, offering pretty-much the same performance, in a smaller package w/a lower price.  retailing between $1350 & $1600 depending on cabinet, i am certain it's amazingly good.  check out the reviews, both from the pros, and from customers.
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/reviews.html (http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/reviews.html)

i especially loved this one from michael barnes, former owner (and founder/chief designer) of norh audio, who reviewed the $210/pair (?!?) Affordable Accuracy Monitor (it's a long read, but worth it):
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1348949-philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy-186.html#post46747241 (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1348949-philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy-186.html#post46747241)

now, 'scuse me, radio fip from france is playing on the grace internet tuner on the main rig in the next room, and i need to get to the sweet spot...   8)

doug s.


Well, I looked at lots of subs last night and will again tonight. Spoke with SVS and the rep said to go with the larger SB 2000. I may just buy a very cheap sub for now to see the effect it’ll have on the LS 50s performance. Also, I lost money on the sale of the Nolas and will lose on the sale of the Mark Audio single drivers. So maybe conservative for just a little while is the way to go. Maybe Blue Jeans cable or Monoprice etc will have some decent, cheap ic’s to hook up the sub. I was told I need another pre out on my dac/linestage pass thru, which I don’t have. So maybe an RCA y splitter? is what I’ll need as well.
As to the Philharmonitors, I had sent Dennis an email and was seriously considering it, but he didn’t get back to me.
I read up a lot on the Philharmonitors and iirc the tweeter and woofer were excellent and the mid driver an off the shelf inexpensive unit but was implemented very well. I may give them a listen at some point, but would you expect the performance to be a definite step up from the LS 50s with a good sub?
The Michael Barnes article was very good indeed, especially from an experienced designer like him.
It’s quite interesting to learn that very inexpensive drivers can produce good sound. I’m just not exposed to that very much, so it’s great getting that information via the forum.
I’m off to California for a few days, so maybe audio will just have to wait
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on March 21, 2018, 10:49:26 PM
Based on my recent experience, I would strongly recommend that you put off buying a sub intil you have lived with the LS50s for a while. I ended up adding two carver subs to my Nola Boxers and after I had set them up using all of the manufacturer's recommended procedures for level setting I was absolutely shocked at how low of a volume I need to play them at to get the balance levels between the subs and the speakers that Carver recommends. (The setup was done with test CDs and an SPL meter)I don't know how much of it may be room reinforcement and how much of it is the speakers themselves, but the Boxers put out an amazing quantity and quality of bass for the size drivers that they use, and I suspect you may be in a similar situation with the LS 50s. I ran out and bought subs because I though I had to with a pair of small speakers like that, when in reality they really don't add a whole lot and I probably could have been perfectly happy without them.

Now your room and your speakers may present a totally different situation and you might get a big improvement from adding a sub. My only point is that conventional thinking for many years has been small speaker equals need for a sub (or two) and with today's speaker technologies this is not always the case, so live with the speakers a while and see if you find a hole that needs filling with a sub. Not saying you shouldn't buy a sub, just that you shouldn't automatically assume you'll need one. You might just end up saving yourself some time, trouble and $s.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on March 21, 2018, 10:58:49 PM
Well, I looked at lots of subs last night and will again tonight. Spoke with SVS and the rep said to go with the larger SB 2000. I may just buy a very cheap sub for now to see the effect it’ll have on the LS 50s performance. Also, I lost money on the sale of the Nolas and will lose on the sale of the Mark Audio single drivers. So maybe conservative for just a little while is the way to go. Maybe Blue Jeans cable or Monoprice etc will have some decent, cheap ic’s to hook up the sub. I was told I need another pre out on my dac/linestage pass thru, which I don’t have. So maybe an RCA y splitter? is what I’ll need as well.
As to the Philharmonitors, I had sent Dennis an email and was seriously considering it, but he didn’t get back to me.
I read up a lot on the Philharmonitors and iirc the tweeter and woofer were excellent and the mid driver an off the shelf inexpensive unit but was implemented very well. I may give them a listen at some point, but would you expect the performance to be a definite step up from the LS 50s with a good sub?
The Michael Barnes article was very good indeed, especially from an experienced designer like him.
It’s quite interesting to learn that very inexpensive drivers can produce good sound. I’m just not exposed to that very much, so it’s great getting that information via the forum.
I’m off to California for a few days, so maybe audio will just have to wait
of course svs would say get the bigger one!   :rofl:  i would, too, but you say you want small, so get the smaller one!   :D

and, re: your experience w/nola and mark audio, that's why i recommend buying used; so you won't lose any money if/when you sell.  if you recall, the 1st philharmonitor i recommended to you was used, for something like asking price of $800.  would it be better than the ls50 w/sub?  i dunno, i think you really need to hear both in your own system and in your own room, and decide for yourself.  but regardless, either one would be excellent, and buying used allows you the luxury of buying both, comparing, then selling what you don't want w/o having to lose a lot of cash.

re: rca y-splitters, i am using something like these right now, they work well.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qC2YCB5gL._SX355_.jpg)
i don't know what brand mine are, but if i were buying now, i would try to find all copper w/gold plating, instead of brass - i know more now than i did then, ha!

enjoy the trip to cali.

doug s.

I got similar Audioquest branded splitters from AudioAdvisor for $12.95 a piece

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQM22FHRD
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 21, 2018, 11:15:10 PM
Yes, I’ll live with the LS 50s for a while before thinking about a sub. It’ll be great to play my favorite tunes and go Tidal surfing again.
As to the SVS sales guy, he said the 2000 would resolve slightly better and fill the room a bit more.
So I really don’t know if he’s feeding me bs or...., but I’ll probably find out one of these days 😳
Thanks for the splitters info. That’s what I’ll need. Off to California in a few hours. A great place to visit, but an even better place to leave
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on March 22, 2018, 08:05:38 AM
   Nick enjoy ! SVS are quite good however I would recommend Rythmic instead. Servo controlled is the key word. Calif. lived in San Diego for a year. Beautiful place then [ 1970]. Now ruined by lunatic progressive BS.

charles

Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: P.I. on March 22, 2018, 01:52:26 PM
   Nick enjoy ! SVS are quite good however I would recommend Rythmic instead. Servo controlled is the key word. Calif. lived in San Diego for a year. Beautiful place then [ 1970]. Now ruined by lunatic progressive BS.

charles
  +1 on what Charles said.  The most amazing, low reaching, impactful and tuneful bass are the sensing coil servo controlled speakers there are are from Brian Ding and Danny Richie.  Accelleromaeter based servo control is always wrong sounding in the PRAT context.  They just sound slow in comparison the the Rythmik and GR subs. Open baffle is stunning in they way it doesn't load the room and sound boomy.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Danny Richie on March 23, 2018, 09:03:05 AM
Thanks for mentioning us guys.

Nick, if you go servo control then you'l never go back. Give me a call if you want to talk subs and I'll give you some real options to consider.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 23, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
Well, more good information to consider. If I got a sub for the LS 50s, it would likely cross over at 80, so we’re talking 60-80 hz and then the sub bass region. As I listen to very little material below 40hz....like 1% if that...I really wonder how much of a difference it would be. BUT, other than my very limited experience with the Nola sub, I know very little about subs. SO, I’m happy to explore servo subs as well. As usual, I do have concerns about size and weight.

Danny, I’ll give you a call when I come back from California next week.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Danny Richie on March 23, 2018, 10:09:14 AM
As much as I hate to send you to the Audio Circle from here, the information in this thread might be helpful: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155412.0
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 23, 2018, 11:03:58 AM
As much as I hate to send you to the Audio Circle from here, the information in this thread might be helpful: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155412.0


Nah, that’s not a problem at all. AN exists now simply as a friendly place to exchange information and ideas. Whether it will morph later at some point, I don’t know.

Now, I did go over to AC and read that thread and there are lots of glowing comments for sure. It seems that it’s a dual 12” driver OB design and I’m not sure where I’d put it or whether I’d want to lift or move it. I believe Danny commented that it could be placed close to a side wall, but not close to the adjoining wall. So that’s potentially a big problem. Whatever my stereo system is composed of, it needs to work within the confines of my living room and not dominate it.

I was on Danny’s site and saw the one 12” driver kit, but I’m staying a mile away from any cabinet plans. I went through that whole routine with the failed single driver Mark Audio adventure.
However, maybe Parts Express has a premade cabinet that would work. Putting that together would be quite easy I’m sure.

When I get back from my trip, I’ll post a photo of my room so guys will see what I’m talking about
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 25, 2018, 11:39:40 AM
hi nick,

not wanting to beat a dead horse, but for what you say your needs and wants are, i still say the best choice is the rythmik L12.  ;)

doug s.


Hi Doug,
NP. The horse is alive and kicking. As you’re aware by my posts, I had no knowledge of subs before these threads began. I had heard of the term servo-controlled, but that’s about it. So I’m open to suggestions even though I’m a bit hesitant/stubborn at times. I will be speaking with Danny when I get home from vacation in a couple of days. As I don’t have space for any open baffle speakers, I’d be looking for a closed enclosure. As I recall, the L12 weight is 58 lbs and I’m assuming that’s the shipping weight, so my main concern is the non-shipping weight. My primary concern with the KEFs will be how extended and non-fatiguing the treble is. As you are using the same L50s, I have a pretty good idea how that will turn out.
I’m certainly enjoying the few days in so. California and the occasional rain we’ve had.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: djdube525 on March 25, 2018, 02:42:40 PM
FWIW... if you've been following Rich's (aka HAL) endeavors, he's using Danny's subs in a couple configurations. I suspect if you PM he'll give you his feedback.

If memory serves me correctly, he has two dual H-Frames (12" subs) and two towers with 6, 12" subs... if that gives you any indication which way he may lean.  :)

Edit: Check out HAL's Monolith thread: http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6519.msg84659;topicseen#msg84659
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: HAL on March 25, 2018, 07:17:04 PM
After having Genesis 12M servo subs which has similar tech to the Rythmik sealed subs and the 2x12 OB H-Frame from GR/Rythmik, I like the H-frame better in my room.  I am not going back to boxes.

If you want small, the Rythmik sealed box is great choice.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 25, 2018, 08:34:09 PM
FWIW... if you've been following Rich's (aka HAL) endeavors, he's using Danny's subs in a couple configurations. I suspect if you PM he'll give you his feedback.

If memory serves me correctly, he has two dual H-Frames (12" subs) and two towers with 6, 12" subs... if that gives you any indication which way he may lean.  :)

Edit: Check out HAL's Monolith thread: http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6519.msg84659;topicseen#msg84659

Yes, I’ve closely been following Rich’s endeavors and I don’t know how he has the energy to do it 😳
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 25, 2018, 08:48:25 PM
   Nick enjoy ! SVS are quite good however I would recommend Rythmic instead. Servo controlled is the key word. Calif. lived in San Diego for a year. Beautiful place then [ 1970]. Now ruined by lunatic progressive BS.

charles
sorry, charlie, i couldn't help but respond to your off-topic comment.  personally, i think the entire country would be a lot better off if it were "ruined" by what you call "lunatic progressive bs".   8)  and don't let johnr find out about this post - he will petition the site to have me banned because i responded to someone else's off-topic comments.   :lol:

ymmv,

doug s.


Now as Robert Blake used to say.... “and that’s the name of that tune”.
Doug, you have a safe haven here 👮
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 26, 2018, 10:52:58 AM
Here’s a hypothetical question....
If I don’t want or need a 12” servo sub, can a 10” driver be substituted for the 12” assuming that the appropriate cabinet is big enough to handle the amp and control board? Would the electronics be able to control the smaller driver or are the driver,  amp and control board matched to each other? Please no comments on why I need a 12” or even a 15” driver.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: HAL on March 26, 2018, 11:08:52 AM
They do not make a 10" servo driver or the correct servo amp to work with it.  They are a special design driver with both a servo coil and drive coil to be sensed and controlled by the servo amp.   

There was an 8" servo open baffle driver from GR-Research, but no more were made after the first run. 
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on March 26, 2018, 12:38:58 PM
   Nick enjoy ! SVS are quite good however I would recommend Rythmic instead. Servo controlled is the key word. Calif. lived in San Diego for a year. Beautiful place then [ 1970]. Now ruined by lunatic progressive BS.

charles
sorry, charlie, i couldn't help but respond to your off-topic comment.  personally, i think the entire country would be a lot better off if it were "ruined" by what you call "lunatic progressive bs".   8)  and don't let johnr find out about this post - he will petition the site to have me banned because i responded to someone else's off-topic comments.   :lol:

ymmv,

doug s.


Now as Robert Blake used to say.... “and that’s the name of that tune”.
Doug, you have a safe haven here 👮

  Thanks Nick, just could not help myself. Doug another time and place for that conversation.


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on March 26, 2018, 12:41:32 PM
Thanks for mentioning us guys.

Nick, if you go servo control then you'l never go back. Give me a call if you want to talk subs and I'll give you some real options to consider.


 Danny we  [ I] mention your products all the time thanks for taking notice. Good is good period.

charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 26, 2018, 07:24:40 PM
They do not make a 10" servo driver or the correct servo amp to work with it.  They are a special design driver with both a servo coil and drive coil to be sensed and controlled by the servo amp.   

There was an 8" servo open baffle driver from GR-Research, but no more were made after the first run.

Thanks, Rich. An 8 or a 10” would have been great
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on March 29, 2018, 12:38:36 PM
Well, the LS 50s have arrived. Look to be in good shape and they are smaller than I thought...which is good. I’ll likely get them going tonight. Also spoke with Danny today re servo subs and an AC member Jay does flat packs, so it may all work out.
There’s also an AC member Maty who posted a pic of the LS 50 crossover and I post the link fyi.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156605.msg1676150#msg1676150
I know very little about parts quality, but I’m surprised to see this. So a crossover upgrade sure looks interesting.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 07, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
hi nick,

well, whaddya think about the ls50's? 

i wanted you to check out this review, of the tekton impact monitors.  i realize that they're likely a bit larger than what you're looking for, but, having heard the larger double impact floorstanders at the caf last fall, and being very impressed, even if they cost double their $3k retail price, i was interested in reading about the $2k impact monitors.  in this review, terry london directly compares them to the kef ls50's and things look pretty grim for the kef's in comparison:
"...when it comes to soundstaging, bass extension, the ability to reveal micro-details, and the density of tonality and timbres, the Impact Monitors significantly outclass these English monitors...."

so, out of curiosity, i responded in the email section; here's the q/a:

dougie_s  RN2013 • 4 days ago
+1 - my thoughts/questions exactly.
(my add to a prior commenter, wanting to know how terry thought they'd sound in a big room)

my present listening room is ~8400sf, (26x38x8.5). and, i presently have a pair of kef ls50's set up, which sound superb driven by a mesa baron at the 80w setting (1/3 pentode - 2/3 triode), crossed over at 70hz/24db per octave, to a pair of vmps larger subs.

so, especially considering your comment about the ls50's, i am wondering about the tekton monitors vs the double-impact's. i've always liked the idea of monitors crossed over to subs; i've had tiny proac ref sig 8's sounding mitey-fine in this room...

i heard the double-impacts at the caf last fall in a far-from-ideal room, and thought they sounded pretty amazing, especially considering the price...

thanks,

doug s.

•Edit•Reply•Share ›

Avatar
Terry London  dougie_s • 4 days ago
Hey Doug,

First, I believe that using the Impact Monitors in your current setup would be a significant upgrade compared to your LS-50's. If you like pairing monitors with subs, stick with that arrangement, however the Double Impact's would also work and sound superlative with or without subs in your room.
[/i]

anyway, here's the review:
https://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-impact-monitor-bookshelf-speaker-reviewed/ (https://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-impact-monitor-bookshelf-speaker-reviewed/)
(https://hometheaterreview.com/assets_c/2018/03/Tekton-Impact-Monitor-thumb-800xauto-18649.jpg)

doug s.
Well, the LS 50s have arrived. Look to be in good shape and they are smaller than I thought...which is good. I’ll likely get them going tonight. Also spoke with Danny today re servo subs and an AC member Jay does flat packs, so it may all work out.
There’s also an AC member Maty who posted a pic of the LS 50 crossover and I post the link fyi.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156605.msg1676150#msg1676150
I know very little about parts quality, but I’m surprised to see this. So a crossover upgrade sure looks interesting.


Doug,
Sad to say, I’ve yet to hook them up. I needed to tape and paint the baseboards behind the audio rack and I did put on a first, not quite perfect yet, coat. There’s a reason I put it off as the kneeling, squatting etc is a pita. And it’s hard to paint a very clean edge. Now that I also got my two week yard project done, I should be able to finish it tomorrow.
It’s very interesting you should mention these same Tektons. I was seriously looking at them, but Eric the owner of Tekton, talked me out of it. He recommended a bigger floorstander after I discussed my specific desires as to a standmount speaker. Also, the first time I spoke with him, he seemed distracted or disinterested and I then sent emails to his secretary...maybe wife...and she responded to my questions. My experience is similar to a few comments I read on the web. It didn’t sit well with me and I lost interest. It would, however, solve the problems of me trying to find a smaller sub.
Doug, after having read your many posts, I have a good hunch that you have a good ear and your comments about the LS 50s are quite encouraging.
There’s also the issue of upgrading the 50s crossover as Danny brought that up in our discussion about subs. So hopefully tomorrow it’ll be done. The upgraded Uber will need to break in and things settle in and then I’ll report
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 07, 2018, 07:45:13 PM
Doug,
Sad to say, I’ve yet to hook them up. I needed to tape and paint the baseboards behind the audio rack and I did put on a first, not quite perfect yet, coat. There’s a reason I put it off as the kneeling, squatting etc is a pita. And it’s hard to paint a very clean edge. Now that I also got my two week yard project done, I should be able to finish it tomorrow.
It’s very interesting you should mention these same Tektons. I was seriously looking at them, but Eric the owner of Tekton, talked me out of it. He recommended a bigger floorstander after I discussed my specific desires as to a standmount speaker. Also, the first time I spoke with him, he seemed distracted or disinterested and I then sent emails to his secretary...maybe wife...and she responded to my questions. My experience is similar to a few comments I read on the web. It didn’t sit well with me and I lost interest. It would, however, solve the problems of me trying to find a smaller sub.
Doug, after having read your many posts, I have a good hunch that you have a good ear and your comments about the LS 50s are quite encouraging.
There’s also the issue of upgrading the 50s crossover as Danny brought that up in our discussion about subs. So hopefully tomorrow it’ll be done. The upgraded Uber will need to break in and things settle in and then I’ll report
Nick
yes, i understand the home project thing.  due to my work situation, and a move gone haywire, thanks to my movers totally screwing up the job, one thing led to another, and it took me a year to finally get my main rig set up in the main room - i also needed to do paint/drywall/wood trim work prior to final set-up.  and, i now am left w/a torn left shoulder rotator cuff, which isn't getting any better, so there will be a surgery in my future...   :roll:

anyway, ya, i think i have a pretty good ear, and i do think you will like the ls50's even if the tekton's are better - ha! 

and, while i understand your desire for monitor-sized speakers, i still think that, since they really don't take up any more room than comparable floor standers, all you really need is a decent hand-truck for the few times you might have to move them.  and i can say w/o doubt that the tekton double impacts really do not need subs in any normally sized room.  my present room is a bit larger than normal.  of course, w/the double impacts, you could get a pair of subs to run in th rear of the room, out-of-phase, letting the tektons run full-range, to really even out bass nodes, and lower distortion even further...   :rofl:

doug s.

Sorry to hear about the shoulder. I have quite a few gripes about contractors/vendors and the difficulty in finding someone good and reliable.

After your post, I did a quick search and found some comments about the Impact monitors and LS 50s on Agon
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tekton-impact-monitors

It seems as of last summer, only a few of the Impact Monitors were out there. I kept doing searches and looking in YouTube, but hardly anything. So it’s something to definitely consider if the little 50s don’t pan out.

As to heavy things....like speakers.... I disconnected the huge watern fountain urn in the backyard and replaced it with a lighter, more compact unit. That beast was heavy and no way to even get it on a hand truck.

My living room/listening area is small, so anything on a larger scale. would be out of place
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 07, 2018, 08:14:56 PM

My living room/listening area is small, so anything on a larger scale. would be out of place


I know the feeling. That is exactly why since we moved to the new house my Thiels are boxed up in the garage and the Boxers are running in the main system.

(Although, if all goes according to plan, the Thiels will be getting set up (although temporarily) in the Family Room for the Orchard Audio demo at the AudioSyndrome meeting at the end of this month.  :yay2: )
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 08, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
To paraphrase the good Dr Frankenstein....they’re alive!! they’re alive!! He was, of course, talking about the KEF LS 50s. After finishing my painting touch ups, I awoke them from their slumber and hooked these tiny tots up and they are singing!

It was a bit of a rough start as I couldn’t use my very stiff, solid copper power cords, the Uber had different receptacles, the McCormack wasn’t warmed up and there was a slight hum in the left speaker. But all that be damned, I fired it up and after 45 minutes, things started sounding pretty good. The initial placement of the KEFs is 18” from the side and front walls and a slight toe in. They’re 7’ apart and I’m 11’ feet back. I haven't fiddled with the KEF foam port inserts. I just set them up this way and sat down and listened...after a 5 month, sad hiatus....

These tiny tots are tuneful. The tonality, timbre, resolution and soundstaging are very good, especially for a uni driver like this. As I had thought, it has a similar presentation to the SP Techs. I can crank the 50s and they handle it just fine. The soundstage is large and similar to the SPs.

The only hiccup so far is Tidal is either slow sending data or my router is having connectivity issues.
I’ll put a lot of hours on these and hopefully will continue to be very pleasantly surprised. And yes, they could benefit from a sub, but it’s not an absolute necessity.

Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dBe on April 08, 2018, 09:10:55 PM
To paraphrase the good Dr Frankenstein....they’re alive!! they’re alive!! He was, of course, talking about the KEF LS 50s. After finishing my painting touch ups, I awoke them from their slumber and hooked these tiny tots up and they are singing!

It was a bit of a rough start as I couldn’t use my very stiff, solid copper power cords, the Uber had different receptacles, the McCormack wasn’t warmed up and there was a slight hum in the left speaker. But all that be damned, I fired it up and after 45 minutes, things started sounding pretty good. The initial placement of the KEFs is 18” from the side and front walls and a slight toe in. They’re 7’ apart and I’m 11’ feet back. I haven't fiddled with the KEF foam port inserts. I just set them up this way and sat down and listened...after a 5 month, sad hiatus....

These tiny tots are tuneful. The tonality, timbre, resolution and soundstaging are very good, especially for a uni driver like this. As I had thought, it has a similar presentation to the SP Techs. I can crank the 50s and they handle it just fine. The soundstage is large and similar to the SPs.

The only hiccup so far is Tidal is either slow sending data or my router is having connectivity issues.
I’ll put a lot of hours on these and hopefully will continue to be very pleasantly surprised. And yes, they could benefit from a sub, but it’s not an absolute necessity.

Nick
Andrew Jones is The Man when it comes to concentric drivers.  His designs make music.  Enjoy my friend.  The subs can come later.  Let the speakers break back ins can endear themselves to your ears, heart and soul... Then add the ear candy in a while.

Rock and listen on... :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 09, 2018, 04:52:02 PM
Nick, I was having trouble with Tidal over the weekend as well. Twice I started to get buffering breaks in the music, after 3 or 4 breaks I decided to to shutr down the streamer and reboot it. This seemed to solve the problem as both time the new connection to Tidal was solid.

Not sure if the connection problems were at my end or their end, but either way the reboot seemed to fix things.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on April 09, 2018, 05:46:12 PM
I had a dropout last night playing Tidal. I asked my son if he was downloading something enormous, he said (sheepishly) yes. Enough to hog all 50Mbps   :rofl:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 09, 2018, 07:28:10 PM
I have had a fair amount of trouble with Tidal and with my internet provider as well. From 10:15 to 11:30, there can be significant drops down to even 1mb. They are supposedly adding another trunk line, but then again, they told me that two years ago. The only other option is dsl, which I’ve never tried.

I am curious about Qobuz, which may be available in the US this summer. Haven’t read much about it and then there’s the issue of availability with either Roon or Auralic.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 09, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
I have had a fair amount of trouble with Tidal and with my internet provider as well. From 10:15 to 11:30, there can be significant drops down to even 1mb. They are supposedly adding another trunk line, but then again, they told me that two years ago. The only other option is dsl, which I’ve never tried.

I am curious about Qobuz, which may be available in the US this summer. Haven’t read much about it and then there’s the issue of availability with either Roon or Auralic.

What kind of internet connection do you have now?
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 09, 2018, 09:25:17 PM
I had a dropout last night playing Tidal. I asked my son if he was downloading something enormous, he said (sheepishly) yes. Enough to hog all 50Mbps   :rofl:

Rich, I have gigabit Fios and I was getting dropouts, so I think that pretty much points to congestion problems somewhere other than in the connection to my house.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 09, 2018, 09:29:38 PM
I have had a fair amount of trouble with Tidal and with my internet provider as well. From 10:15 to 11:30, there can be significant drops down to even 1mb. They are supposedly adding another trunk line, but then again, they told me that two years ago. The only other option is dsl, which I’ve never tried.

I am curious about Qobuz, which may be available in the US this summer. Haven’t read much about it and then there’s the issue of availability with either Roon or Auralic.

What kind of internet connection do you have now?

It’s cable. I think the other providers would be even worse. On the other side of town they have fiber optic and it’s perfect. I have the same issues tonight and right now can’t play anything. I will be starting a new thread on streamers and i know you have the Bluesound, so I’d appreciate your comments there.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 10, 2018, 04:31:57 AM
If you have cable modem service now don't even think about trying DSL. Most cable companies are now offering minimum line speeds of 25-50 Mbps for their internet service. DSL for the most part starts out with a max speed of 3 Mbps, if you are about 3 feet away from the phone companies local switching center and the actual speed you get in your home decreases as you get further away. If you think cable speeds are too slow you will lose your mind using a DSL line.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on April 10, 2018, 06:04:32 AM
DSL is old technology. They aren't making new parts for it anymore.

If they are installing fiber in your town, then it should come to you soon unless you're way out of the way. I got fiber installed on my street last year. Big improvement over DSL.

Meantime, upgrade your LAN so that your cable modem has no other job to do beside gateway. Don't make it route or switch or wireless or DHCP or anything that will cause it to mess itself up. If rebooting your router fixes problems then the router is suspect.

You can test your network connection speed with http://www.speedtest.net/ but your internal network can slow that way down.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 10, 2018, 09:44:29 AM
Good to know about dsl. I won’t bother trying it. Fiber will never be available to me due to the exclusive rights to various areas provided to certain companies by the city.

I have tried the speedtest app and actually registered a 0.. yes, zero. As to upgrading my LAN, I’m not sure what that means. I switched to an ASUS RT 87U router a couple of years ago, but its really not much better than my old Linksys.

Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on April 10, 2018, 11:14:24 AM
Never say never as far as the fiber goes. Municipal franchise agreements are usually written for a certain term and are up for renegotiation every certain number of years. Get in touch with your local govt officials and let them know that next time the franchise agreement comes up for renewal you oppose the granting of an exclusive franchise because you feel that local competition would be of great benefit to the residents (and more importantly to them, the voters.).
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 15, 2018, 09:36:10 PM
A further update on the LS 50s. Gary...aka gander on this forum.... drove up from Las Vegas today and brought along new stranded wire power cords and a digital cable and interconnects that are made of flexible carbon fiber with graphene with 100% cotton sheathing. I wasn’t expecting much improvement as his cables are pretty darn good already.

Due to my initial rack placement and other factors, I had thrown together various power cords including his
solid copper cords. The digital and ic that I was using were unshielded and made from very fine gauge
copper wire. The wires are resolving and musical as well.

The first thing we switched was just the digital and it was an obvious improvement in clarity and soundstaging. I was very, very surprised and recalled that ....iirc....Tom had recently mentioned he hadnt noticed much difference in digital cables. Well, this one might change his mind. We then added the carbon fiber ic’s and it was more of the same... just a very nice improvement in clarity and presentation. I asked Gary to help me move the rack a bit more away from the wall so I could put that 8 gauge solid copper power cord back on the McCormack amp and it produced great results. There is a wonderful synergy with the McCormack and this cord. The bass is much more pronounced, taut and full. Gary’s new stranded cord wasn’t a match  for the solid copper in this application.

We also tried an amp he lent me, the Pass Aleph 30. This was a final pre-production unit. It was my first time with a solid state class A amp and just reminded me that I’d had a VAC 90 class A tube amp back around 1990. Anyway, we both enjoyed the sound a lot. It resolved slightly better than the McCormack and had a “darker” sound which I wasn’t used to.  But I do believe it was a more natural sound. Leonard Cohen’s voice had an even more gutteral quality and the sound had a wonderfully organic quality. Now a 30 watt stereo amp with 84 db efficient speakers isn’t a great match  as to spl’s
and it wouldn’t do justice to trying to crank it up playing the Stones or some ZZ Top. So Gary took it home, but did mention he has Pass 60 watt monos. It’s tempting for sure and I won’t take a loss on selling the McCormack.

And finally, that pesky Roon/Tidal streaming problem was back today. I was getting at least 30mb, so that wasn’t the issue. I will try and assign a static ip though with the help of a fellow AN member who volunteered his services a few days ago



Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on April 16, 2018, 07:30:50 AM
  Sounds like a fun and educating day. I like carbon/graphine as well for digital. That is what we used exclusively until the dedicated transport and DAC can use Ethernet [ I2S ] connection.
  30W of class "A" is enough to drive those speakers. Lots of headroom in Pass Amps.
Gary how do you terminate the ICs ? Pictures unless your going to sell them.


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 16, 2018, 09:32:42 AM
  Sounds like a fun and educating day. I like carbon/graphine as well for digital. That is what we used exclusively until the dedicated transport and DAC can use Ethernet [ I2S ] connection.
  30W of class "A" is enough to drive those speakers. Lots of headroom in Pass Amps.
Gary how do you terminate the ICs ? Pictures unless your going to sell them.


charles

Charles, 30 watts of class A isn’t enough for playing rock 😪
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 12:22:03 AM
nick, sorry, i wasn't ignoring this thread; for some reason i never got notifications of new posts - this thread or any other, either.   :shock:  i just decided to check in to see wazzup.  i hope you're enjoying the ls50's. 

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Was wondering where you’ve been. Enjoy reading your posts. Hope all is well for you. Is the notification issue resolved? I was going to give an update on the LS 50s, so I’ll do that now.
I like these speakers and like them more than the Nolas and my single, full range drivers. They are fun to listen to. But there  are two things that I’ve noticed: the resolution doesn’t appear to be quite as good as my old SP Techs and the midrange appears to be slightly veiled. Now the resolution issue I’m pretty sure of, but as to the slightly veiled midrange, I’m not as sure. It’s just more of an impression. Now these are slight issues and I may be all wet, so to speak, but heck, this isn’t an exact science.
So part of me wants to get a small sub and maybe talk to Danny about upgrading the crossover as was mentioned on a thread at AC. But....the other part of me wants to try a Philharmonitor BMR or a ?? not sure haha. But I will say the longer this goes on, the less likely I’ll want to spend the money on the new Fritz BE or the Aurum Cantus Vola 3 (I believe that’s the model).
Anyways...that’s my situation right now
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on April 19, 2018, 08:35:53 AM
  Nick do not forget PSB or Elac. We demonstrated the 20W integrated with 86db speakers playing Joey Bonnamassa and blew the house down at one of the Audiosyndrome meetings. No break up whatsoever.


charles
 
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 09:25:50 AM
  Nick do not forget PSB or Elac. We demonstrated the 20W integrated with 86db speakers playing Joey Bonnamassa and blew the house down at one of the Audiosyndrome meetings. No break up whatsoever.


charles
 

Charles,
I looked at Elac before, so will do so again. As to the PSB, am not familiar with any of their models. Right now, I’m using my trusty McCormack with very good results. It’s just a different presentation from Gary’s class A Pass. Over the years, I’ve probably had more inefficient speakers than not, so going to a small watt amp is more of a risk than I’m willing to take right now.
Are you talking about an Audio Hungary integrated??
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on April 19, 2018, 09:44:37 AM
  Nick do not forget PSB or Elac. We demonstrated the 20W integrated with 86db speakers playing Joey Bonnamassa and blew the house down at one of the Audiosyndrome meetings. No break up whatsoever.


charles
 

Charles,
I looked at Elac before, so will do so again. As to the PSB, am not familiar with any of their models. Right now, I’m using my trusty McCormack with very good results. It’s just a different presentation from Gary’s class A Pass. Over the years, I’ve probably had more inefficient speakers than not, so going to a small watt amp is more of a risk than I’m willing to take right now.
Are you talking about an Audio Hungary integrated??

  Yes the Audio Hungary was used. The A50i is the 50W version. Not trying to sell you an amp just saying that the 20W class"A" shook the dam house. We used Fritz BE that day.
   You know what your doing no schooling from me just conversation.

charles
 


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 12:36:49 PM
Hi Doug,
Was wondering where you’ve been. Enjoy reading your posts. Hope all is well for you. Is the notification issue resolved? I was going to give an update on the LS 50s, so I’ll do that now.
I like these speakers and like them more than the Nolas and my single, full range drivers. They are fun to listen to. But there  are two things that I’ve noticed: the resolution doesn't appear to be quite as good as my old SP Techs and the midrange appears to be slightly veiled. Now the resolution issue I’m pretty sure of, but as to the slightly veiled midrange, I’m not as sure. It’s just more of an impression. Now these are slight issues and I may be all wet, so to speak, but heck, this isn’t an exact science.
So part of me wants to get a small sub and maybe talk to Danny about upgrading the crossover as was mentioned on a thread at AC. But....the other part of me wants to try a Philharmonitor BMR or a ?? not sure haha. But I will say the longer this goes on, the less likely I’ll want to spend the money on the new Fritz BE or the Aurum Cantus Vola 3 (I believe that’s the model).
Anyways...that’s my situation right now
Nick
hi nick,

well, i got notification for this last post, so ya, i guess the problem self-sorted itself out!   :D

i don't think the ls50's are lacking in resolution or veiled anywhere, (sort of the same issue, imo), but they may not be the last word in these areas; ie: while not having done a direct head-to-head comparison, i suspect my piega's might have the edge here.  but, at retail price ~6 time more, i'd hope so, ha!

also, regarding running a sub (or two); w/them, if you were to actively cross over the ls50's so they don't see the lowest octave or two, it's likely that, whatever the resolution is now, it will get better.  and, you may also find they will do better w/less power if actively crossed over to subs.  i am also interested in the ls50 internal x-over mod thing; it seems there may be something to gain there.

regarding something different; i am likely a retailer's worst nightmare!  unless it's something that's a freaking bargain brand-new, i'd never recommend buying anything except used.  the only exception (besides bargain, and maybe even if it's a bargain) is if it's rare on the used market.  example:  the philharmonitors are rare on the sued market, because they're not that well-known, and i think folks have a tendency to hold on to them.  tektons, on the other hand, seem to be a bargain, but patience may actually reward you w/being able to find a used pair.  so, unless you've extensively auditioned something in your own system, and you know it's a long term keeper, i'd be reluctant to be shelling out serious coin for new gear.  but that's me, ever the cheapskate.

doug

Doug,
Being a cheapskate has it’s rewards! I did send Danny an email today about the LS 50 crossovers. To me, it might be worth, say, a $300 experiment. I’d be fine with that. For fun, I’ll keep an eye out on the used speaker market. At least I’m at a point where I can really enjoy these KEFs
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 12:45:38 PM
  Nick do not forget PSB or Elac. We demonstrated the 20W integrated with 86db speakers playing Joey Bonnamassa and blew the house down at one of the Audiosyndrome meetings. No break up whatsoever.


charles
 

Charles,
I looked at Elac before, so will do so again. As to the PSB, am not familiar with any of their models. Right now, I’m using my trusty McCormack with very good results. It’s just a different presentation from Gary’s class A Pass. Over the years, I’ve probably had more inefficient speakers than not, so going to a small watt amp is more of a risk than I’m willing to take right now.
Are you talking about an Audio Hungary integrated??

  Yes the Audio Hungary was used. The A50i is the 50W version. Not trying to sell you an amp just saying that the 20W class"A" shook the dam house. We used Fritz BE that day.
   You know what your doing no schooling from me just conversation.

charles
 

charles

That must have been wonderful sound!! I have a hunch the Audio Hungary integrated would be a wonderful piece. I never did find prices on the 20i and 50i today, but I vaguely recall they were at least in the 3k and 6k range. An integrated would certainly give me a lot of flexibility. As to affordability, I’d need to skip a lot of lunches and collect lots of aluminum cans :)
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: gander on April 19, 2018, 08:42:38 PM
nick, sorry, i wasn't ignoring this thread; for some reason i never got notifications of new posts - this thread or any other, either.   :shock:  i just decided to check in to see wazzup.  i hope you're enjoying the ls50's. 

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Was wondering where you’ve been. Enjoy reading your posts. Hope all is well for you. Is the notification issue resolved? I was going to give an update on the LS 50s, so I’ll do that now.
I like these speakers and like them more than the Nolas and my single, full range drivers. They are fun to listen to. But there  are two things that I’ve noticed: the resolution doesn’t appear to be quite as good as my old SP Techs and the midrange appears to be slightly veiled. Now the resolution issue I’m pretty sure of, but as to the slightly veiled midrange, I’m not as sure. It’s just more of an impression. Now these are slight issues and I may be all wet, so to speak, but heck, this isn’t an exact science.
So part of me wants to get a small sub and maybe talk to Danny about upgrading the crossover as was mentioned on a thread at AC. But....the other part of me wants to try a Philharmonitor BMR or a ?? not sure haha. But I will say the longer this goes on, the less likely I’ll want to spend the money on the new Fritz BE or the Aurum Cantus Vola 3 (I believe that’s the model).
Anyways...that’s my situation right now
Nick

 Nick, I seriously think if you put tiny self stick silicon bumpers on the underside of the speakers and on the platforms like I talked about with you, so that the speakers can’t roll off of the plattforms, and put my rollers under the speakers, your bass and mid range should tighten up and sound more detailed and at least some of that veil will go away. Try it and let me know what happens.  Also instead of using the rollers I gave you, try 1 inch diameter rollers. Those are a little bigger and they may sound better.

Gary
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 19, 2018, 11:09:21 PM
nick, sorry, i wasn't ignoring this thread; for some reason i never got notifications of new posts - this thread or any other, either.   :shock:  i just decided to check in to see wazzup.  i hope you're enjoying the ls50's. 

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Was wondering where you’ve been. Enjoy reading your posts. Hope all is well for you. Is the notification issue resolved? I was going to give an update on the LS 50s, so I’ll do that now.
I like these speakers and like them more than the Nolas and my single, full range drivers. They are fun to listen to. But there  are two things that I’ve noticed: the resolution doesn’t appear to be quite as good as my old SP Techs and the midrange appears to be slightly veiled. Now the resolution issue I’m pretty sure of, but as to the slightly veiled midrange, I’m not as sure. It’s just more of an impression. Now these are slight issues and I may be all wet, so to speak, but heck, this isn’t an exact science.
So part of me wants to get a small sub and maybe talk to Danny about upgrading the crossover as was mentioned on a thread at AC. But....the other part of me wants to try a Philharmonitor BMR or a ?? not sure haha. But I will say the longer this goes on, the less likely I’ll want to spend the money on the new Fritz BE or the Aurum Cantus Vola 3 (I believe that’s the model).
Anyways...that’s my situation right now
Nick

 Nick, I seriously think if you put tiny self stick silicon bumpers on the underside of the speakers and on the platforms like I talked about with you, so that the speakers can’t roll off of the plattforms, and put my rollers under the speakers, your bass and mid range should tighten up and sound more detailed and at least some of that veil will go away. Try it and let me know what happens.  Also instead of using the rollers I gave you, try 1 inch diameter rollers. Those are a little bigger and they may sound better.

Gary

Ok, Gary, you prodded me to do it without the little bumper stops. I did not do an A/B, just put them in and enjoyed a few hours of great listening. AC grunge was minimal and yes, I turned off the fridge.
I heard a slightly cleaner, tighter presentation and it was very enjoyable. I don’t know that I got extra detail, but I’ll mess with the rollers on/rollers off scenario tomorrow night.
Roon was behaving, so it was a great night!
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on April 20, 2018, 07:25:36 AM
  Another consideration is Mark Audio SOTA designs. Not a dealer.


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 20, 2018, 08:04:18 AM
  Another consideration is Mark Audio SOTA designs. Not a dealer.


charles

Charles,
I tried full range drivers and actually ordered the Mark Audio. Single drivers just didn’t work out for me. Now as to the Rethem you like, that may be in another league
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 20, 2018, 10:31:50 AM
Charles,
I tried full range drivers and actually ordered the Mark Audio. Single drivers just didn’t work out for me. Now as to the Rethem you like, that may be in another league
Nick
nick, the rethm's are a completely different vegetable.  i mean animal.   :D  first of all, they have built-in subwoofers.  secondly, they use horn-type drivers with whizzer cones.

i heard these exact speakers (the bhaava's) in this exact room, (and ran into charlie there, as well as meeting jacob george, rethm's owner); this pic was taken at the 2017 caf:
(https://www.audiostream.com/images/11717rethm.jpg)
totally excellent sound; i preferred it to the $1m von schweikert/vac set-up. (note the hungarian amp there, in the background... ;))

re: the roller thing; that's actually quite interesting - i have a pair of meret re's, which are fine (imo) stand-mounts w/excellent sonics.  (mine are now cosmetically challenged, thanks to the ex throwing them down the stairs onto the basement concrete-floor.  along w/a mesa baron amp, jvc surround processor, electrocompaniet amp & preamp - ah memories!   :roll:)

anyway, the re's have solid steel bottom plates, and came w/dedicated sound anchor stands that had three small circular cutouts on top to receive three ball bearings, which the re's sat on.  they were heavy enough - ~50lbs each; constrained-layer cabinets that included lead - that they didn't need any "bumpers" to keep them from rolling off the stands.  i never actually tried them w/o the rollers to see if there was a sonic difference...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=319)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=318)


also, re: inexpensive (and used, to boot) speakers, i saw these - i've never heard 'em, but, based on the old reviews of the sierra-1 editions, and w/the upgrade drivers they use, i bet they're not half-bad...  ;)  they've been f/s for 7 weeks, so the seller may be ripe for offers. 

ad:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649419656-ascend-acoustics-sierra-2-pair/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649419656-ascend-acoustics-sierra-2-pair/)

mfr:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2/srm2.html (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2/srm2.html)

(also, the mfr sells sierra-2 drivers for $408, to replace the sierra-1 drivers, and the sierra-1 iterations are f/s used for asking prices ~$500...)

doug s.

Oh Doug,
Throwing audio equipment around, especially such stellar gear, made my heart sick 😪
Thanks for posting that pic. I’d like to be closer to some of the audio venues to hear some of this great equipment, but circumstances don’t allow it, especially at this time. I sent Danny at GR Research an email about upgrading the LS 50 xovers and I’m waiting to hear back. Using those little rollers Gary gave me does make a difference. 
I’m nitpicking with my impressions of the LS 50s. I am able to hear much of what I did with my beloved SP Techs, but those background singers and the instruments in the rear of the stage aren't quite as clearly defined. Everyone should have such serious problems 🙄
I’m keeping my options open and thank goodness there is no hurry on any of this and that I’m able to enjoy such quality speakers.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: gander on April 20, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
 I heard Nick’s new speakers this weekend and they sounded pretty damn good. Especially after I put in the new carbon fiber digital interconnect and carbon fiber analog interconnects.  Overall I think you should be very happy with them. But then there is always more… 😀

Gary
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 20, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
I heard Nick’s new speakers this weekend and they sounded pretty damn good. Especially after I put in the new carbon fiber digital interconnect and carbon fiber analog interconnects.  Overall I think you should be very happy with them. But then there is always more… 😀

Gary

True, Gary, but you have speaker wanderlust, too :) More comments to follow soon after I plugged the rear ports and repositioned the LS 50s today
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 21, 2018, 10:17:44 AM
I heard Nick’s new speakers this weekend and they sounded pretty damn good. Especially after I put in the new carbon fiber digital interconnect and carbon fiber analog interconnects.  Overall I think you should be very happy with them. But then there is always more… 😀

Gary

True, Gary, but you have speaker wanderlust, too :) More comments to follow soon after I plugged the rear ports and repositioned the LS 50s today
Nick
nick,

yes, i meant to ask you about the port plugs, as kef recommends them being plugged, either partially or completely, depending on how close you have them to the wall; i think you first mentioned you did have them close.  w/mine, i have them plugged, even tho they're way out into my room, as they're crossed to subs at 70hz.  and, i measured the total response w/a 12 band pink noise generator, and it was just a hair more even at 100hz, when i had the ports plugged.

doug s.

Doug,

I found the KEF instructions in the box. Just a few drawings in many languages, but very precise as to
placement. I have very limited room on the left side, so I’m within 18” of that side wall. That dictates the placement parameters regarding the front wall. So, I am within 18” of the front wall and that mandates using the foam plugs. If I had a lot more room on the left side and room on the front wall, then I wouldn’t need to use the plugs (if you want, I can give you the Kef measurements)

That being said, the sound last night was very crisp, precise, musical and fun to listen to. The soundstage depth was reduced, but that’s not much of an issue. There was more detail, which I appreciated and enjoyed.

I am getting quite the wide soundstage, which I presume in the design of that Uni Q driver and the left side wall relections which include wallboard and glass. I really don’t know much as to such technical things. It’s an interesting phenomenon.

That’s it for now

Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 21, 2018, 01:24:30 PM
Doug,

I found the KEF instructions in the box. Just a few drawings in many languages, but very precise as to
placement. I have very limited room on the left side, so I’m within 18” of that side wall. That dictates the placement parameters regarding the front wall. So, I am within 18” of the front wall and that mandates using the foam plugs. If I had a lot more room on the left side and room on the front wall, then I wouldn’t need to use the plugs (if you want, I can give you the Kef measurements)

That being said, the sound last night was very crisp, precise, musical and fun to listen to. The soundstage depth was reduced, but that’s not much of an issue. There was more detail, which I appreciated and enjoyed.

I am getting quite the wide soundstage, which I presume in the design of that Uni Q driver and the left side wall reflections which include wallboard and glass. I really don’t know much as to such technical things. It’s an interesting phenomenon.

That’s it for now

Nick
hi nick,

thanks, i have all the factory kef stuff, including the locating dimensions regarding the plugs.  while i was the 2nd owner of mine, i was the 1st to open the boxes, as the original owner never even got that far w/them.  ;)

it sounds like sound absorption panels behind the speakers, and at the 1st reflection points on the side walls, would yield beneficial results regarding imaging depth and width, in your situation.  the reflections from the left sidewall are not making things better.  and, even if panels are not aesthetically room-friendly, perhaps you can move them into place only when having listening sessions, and then store them when not doing critical listening.

doug s.

My wife might agree to a permanent decorative panel behind the speakers. I saw a link in AC or somewhere about companies that do that. As to the side walls, it would be very tedious and expensive to cover the 2’x6’ glass panels on the left side and it’s something I don’t want to do anyway. I wish I could post a pic and I’ve tried, but I can never get it to upload. My speedtest app tells me that my upload speeds are very slow, so maybe that’s the issue.
The interesting thing about the acoustics is that the soundstage is very wide and I’m getting sound way to the right of the right speaker. The boundary wall of the right speaker is at least 6’ away.
I have traded a couple of emails with Danny Ritchie about the xover upgrade, but it would take time  for him to look at the pics on AC shown by AC member maty.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: DRN on April 21, 2018, 03:05:41 PM
I have all GIK panels here done about 6 months ago. Changed the whole sound of my system so work very well.
Pretty nice choices for art panels too. Mine are just burgundy in color. But the single best thing I have done for the room/system in 10 years! Beyond wires etc. etc . Unfortunately probably the last thing we think of.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 21, 2018, 10:10:10 PM
Thanks, guys, for the information about gik. I took a look at the site and the prices are quite reasonable. Gik mentions the use of fiberglass panels, which I don’t understand as fiberglass is a hard material. We were planning to hang a 4’ x 3’ painting with a glass front between the speakers and behind the audio rack. Maybe I shouldn’t do that....

As to the reflections I’m getting off the glass panels on the left wall, I’m not sure how to proceed. I could have gik make panels, but do i want to place those panels each time I want to play music, I doubt it as I’d have to crawl over the couch to do it. When time allows, I’ll give gik a call and/or send them some pics.

Danny Ritchie did get back to me regarding the xover project. Parts would be no more than $200 plus his labor plus shipping cost. It seems very reasonable.

Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on April 22, 2018, 01:38:33 PM
Surprising FR of stock LS50! Ouch!

A slight dip at 4k is a common voicing on speakers intended to be enjoyed more than to win the measurement contests.  But the "before" FR is a very audible dip. I'm suspicious of that being legit measurement of stock LS50. I don't believe KEF would allow that out the door.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 23, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
Thanks, guys, for the information about gik. I took a look at the site and the prices are quite reasonable. Gik mentions the use of fiberglass panels, which I don’t understand as fiberglass is a hard material. We were planning to hang a 4’ x 3’ painting with a glass front between the speakers and behind the audio rack. Maybe I shouldn’t do that....

As to the reflections I’m getting off the glass panels on the left wall, I’m not sure how to proceed. I could have gik make panels, but do i want to place those panels each time I want to play music, I doubt it as I’d have to crawl over the couch to do it. When time allows, I’ll give gik a call and/or send them some pics.

Danny Ritchie did get back to me regarding the xover project. Parts would be no more than $200 plus his labor plus shipping cost. It seems very reasonable.

Nick
nick,

from what you're saying, i surmise that the couch is to the left of the listening position, against the glass?  if so, then it might not be as bad as you think.  you may be able to get away with having only one 2' wide panel there - all you really need is to locate it where you would see the speaker's driver from the listening position if it were a mirror.  altho having two wouldn't add too much difficulty for what i'm thinking - which is: just keep the panel(s) laying on its/their side(s) behind the couch when not in use - perfect place to store it/them.  then just stand it/them up as desired.

just a thought, it really would make a big difference sonically.

re: the kef ls50 x-over project, i'm curious, (obviously, since i also have a pair of these!  :D ), did danny discuss a redesign of the x-over, or just replacing the parts w/higher quality, but not changing the original design values?  if the latter, i'd be tempted to simply have danny tell me what i need to upgrade, and buy the parts; or if he can't w/o seeing them, then just remove the x-overs and send those to him, and then have him build me new ones, or sell me the parts so i can build 'em, if the cost savings is worth it.  it seems they measure pretty well in stock form:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153 (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153)

but, according to a german guy, there's still room for improvement:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-104-26095.html (http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-104-26095.html)
(translation; note that he did only the low-pass x-over; he didn't even upgrade the parts in the hi-pass side.)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifi-forum.de%2Fviewthread-104-26095.html&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifi-forum.de%2Fviewthread-104-26095.html&edit-text=)

before (and pretty close to the nrc measurements, actually):
(https://i.imgur.com/ju58trT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1ndHRZm.jpg)

after:
(https://i.imgur.com/VfneDHA.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PumI434.jpg)

more info:

(start at the top of the thread):
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/98114-kef-ls50-crossover-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-1558581 (https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/98114-kef-ls50-crossover-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-1558581)

(more foto's):
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-anyone-have-experience-with-the-kef-ls50.646016/page-18 (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-anyone-have-experience-with-the-kef-ls50.646016/page-18)

(another mod):
https://imgur.com/a/7Lfvs (https://imgur.com/a/7Lfvs)

doug s.


Doug,
Yes, the couch is right up against the glass panels and I like your idea. I may just try and install something temporarily to test it when I have time. I pretty much said a parts swap as I don’t want to run up the tab on this little experiment. I am open though to more expensive parts. Thanks for all those links. Interesting stuff....not that I understood much of the technical side of it.
Now I am curious what a dip in the 1-2k region translates to.
I will try and shoot Danny another email. There has been a family issue in California and we need to travel in a few days, so things are rushed.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 23, 2018, 04:19:40 PM
I have all GIK panels here done about 6 months ago. Changed the whole sound of my system so work very well.
Pretty nice choices for art panels too. Mine are just burgundy in color. But the single best thing I have done for the room/system in 10 years! Beyond wires etc. etc . Unfortunately probably the last thing we think of.

I sent gik pics of my room today. How many panels were necessary and where were they placed?
Nick

Hey Doug,
Thought I’d send a followup on my forum post. Here’s a photo to show you the layout as I can’t seem to post pics on the forum. I’ll let you know what I hear from Danny. Things are a bit rushed here as my wife’s mom passed away and we’re heading to So California in a few days.  I’m gonna ask Danny if I can ship the kefs. I think I can get to it before I leave
Nick

image1.jpeg
Sent from my iPad
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: P.I. on April 23, 2018, 09:09:01 PM
I have all GIK panels here done about 6 months ago. Changed the whole sound of my system so work very well.
Pretty nice choices for art panels too. Mine are just burgundy in color. But the single best thing I have done for the room/system in 10 years! Beyond wires etc. etc . Unfortunately probably the last thing we think of.

I sent gik picsof my room today. How many panels were necessary and where were they placed?
Nick
Send me some pics of your room and I'll have my guy Igor (Greg Rael) look at it, too.  :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 23, 2018, 09:40:44 PM
I have all GIK panels here done about 6 months ago. Changed the whole sound of my system so work very well.
Pretty nice choices for art panels too. Mine are just burgundy in color. But the single best thing I have done for the room/system in 10 years! Beyond wires etc. etc . Unfortunately probably the last thing we think of.

I sent gik picsof my room today. How many panels were necessary and where were they placed?
Nick
Send me some pics of your room and I'll have my guy Igor (Greg Rael) look at it, too.  :thumb:

I appreciate that, Dave. Email with pics sent.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on April 24, 2018, 08:12:06 AM
Recently as per Daves request I consulted with Greg. Quite happy I did. The guy knows his stuff. Bought four diffusor panels installed them and now have much better sound. Amazing difference.

I believe Dave designed them and Greg now sells them.


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 24, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
I received a couple of emails from members....thank you....regarding my acoustic issues and it’s a bit of a problem.
My listening environment is “scrunched” on the left side if my living room AND I have those four glass panels on the left side wall. So there aint no easy fix.... One consensus is to at least to put a panel behind the audio rack. My thought also is maybe to put a couple of hooks up on the left side wall and cover the glass with a cheap drape when I listen.
Or.....I could move everything to a completely symmetrical side wall, but that is a side where foot traffic is and it’s not doable if I add one or more subs.
So there you have it...the perils of not having unlimited space and money....
Nick
PS haven’t heard back from gik yet
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: dBe on April 24, 2018, 12:44:06 PM
I received a couple of emails from members....thank you....regarding my acoustic issues and it’s a bit of a problem.
My listening environment is “scrunched” on the left side if my living room AND I have those four glass panels on the left side wall. So there aint no easy fix.... One consensus is to at least to put a panel behind the audio rack. My thought also is maybe to put a couple of hooks up on the left side wall and cover the glass with a cheap drape when I listen.
Or.....I could move everything to a completely symmetrical side wall, but that is a side where foot traffic is and it’s not doable if I add one or more subs.
So there you have it...the perils of not having unlimited space and money....
Nick
PS haven’t heard back from gik yet
Remember that you don't have to have the subs next to the speakers.  You can go to a swarm approach... it works well and helps to even out LF room response.  Even with only two subs it is a decent alternative.  The side wall is your best alternative for great imaging and soundstage.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0812/distributed_bass.htm
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 25, 2018, 11:39:52 PM
I received a couple of emails from members....thank you....regarding my acoustic issues and it’s a bit of a problem.
My listening environment is “scrunched” on the left side if my living room AND I have those four glass panels on the left side wall. So there aint no easy fix.... One consensus is to at least to put a panel behind the audio rack. My thought also is maybe to put a couple of hooks up on the left side wall and cover the glass with a cheap drape when I listen.
Or.....I could move everything to a completely symmetrical side wall, but that is a side where foot traffic is and it’s not doable if I add one or more subs.
So there you have it...the perils of not having unlimited space and money....
Nick
PS haven’t heard back from gik yet
Remember that you don't have to have the subs next to the speakers.  You can go to a swarm approach... it works well and helps to even out LF room response.  Even with only two subs it is a decent alternative.  The side wall is your best alternative for great imaging and soundstage.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0812/distributed_bass.htm

I actually put a deposit on two small subs ..... starts with “r” and ends with “l” , but the seller backed out and wants to keep them. It’s just as well with so many things going on here. I am trying to educate myself with basic acoustics, sub placement etc. Those LS 50s are really starting to grow on me  :thumb:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 25, 2018, 11:48:39 PM
my li'l mock-up suggestion as to where the panels should go.  while curtains over the glass would be great, i don't think the glass is at the first reflection point from the main listening position, which i suspect is from the brown lounge chair.  if the first reflection point is in fact at the glass, i suggested that the panels simply be stored sideways behind the couch and tilted up for when listening.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a9JjmBWh7xiNItl6JBHTgfI22SLl0eaXdSbZhPKCBPQWnU4DHDABzWVCljtO8Km9q6MJPv0zwRtJvHZjIPMQNUSX2abwD5I0Nn2aoKq5zCs3zgrCL5Z6_A3ttIr3CbsQ2X2Gq8cT3pxoBzq5SR1T-c97FP-79xVw80qrupYH78AKsv_kbfEmX4aRba4QQkX1KenGt0NbpWaEYpUjAEeHCrUyLoPQyQaA7ywfdwThTnxwoTDy4Hv9aGDAxoxr_M1TN-YTK7zlLXhuyQFgPERSKUG3GeJ2c_2JBscmzoCxCP8YyAW5jM6CiTDG4rWa1znTHPLIyWhvwQBwBxjRoxMmkxAsVKtjho6xohoRvrwXAdmr1faX1_-ppKc3jf_C_REmqBl9qG2JDA9r4jjv1fpnb7F5bzGEeE-GDsyV1zWhbCmLvBI2MccvLglq4oNNgVuPHcfydRuQxqHRfDMqxSNSHl9EwYCxf_SHsKMiI_GGa332sMhHP7PkwDp3HTOa-4--EadxlXJfGLA7ocoy7nBo4NmBUmE0XJNRKUvXTS6tt5qIj6Q869kKe7g0bVCsYGzVmHVExc7ZfeVlFnNc4GqDhjr6lFKA17coD-c_GtU=w510-h679-no)

doug s.

We’re heading out of town and then I’ll test placement of panels, etc. Dave also had a friend of his contact me to help figure it out.
On another note, I looked at the kef manual again and with my current speaker placement, they suggested removing the small foam plug in the center of the larger foam plug. I did and had a very nice improvement. These are really sounding sweet and I can understand why you so enjoy them.
They now resolve beautifully and I’m enjoying the midrange more. Gary also made me a believer re turning the fridge off for listening.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 29, 2018, 08:46:36 AM
I received a couple of emails from members....thank you....regarding my acoustic issues and it’s a bit of a problem.
My listening environment is “scrunched” on the left side if my living room AND I have those four glass panels on the left side wall. So there aint no easy fix.... One consensus is to at least to put a panel behind the audio rack. My thought also is maybe to put a couple of hooks up on the left side wall and cover the glass with a cheap drape when I listen.
Or.....I could move everything to a completely symmetrical side wall, but that is a side where foot traffic is and it’s not doable if I add one or more subs.
So there you have it...the perils of not having unlimited space and money....
Nick
PS haven’t heard back from gik yet
Remember that you don't have to have the subs next to the speakers.  You can go to a swarm approach... it works well and helps to even out LF room response.  Even with only two subs it is a decent alternative.  The side wall is your best alternative for great imaging and soundstage.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0812/distributed_bass.htm

I actually put a deposit on two small subs ..... starts with “r” and ends with “l” , but the seller backed out and wants to keep them. It’s just as well with so many things going on here. I am trying to educate myself with basic acoustics, sub placement etc. Those LS 50s are really starting to grow on me  :thumb:

Well, the deal on the subs fell through due to sellers remorse and that’s ok. There’s always another product or deal that comes along at the appropriate time......
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on April 29, 2018, 09:12:41 AM
I actually put a deposit on two small subs ..... starts with “r” and ends with “l” , but the seller backed out and wants to keep them. It’s just as well with so many things going on here. I am trying to educate myself with basic acoustics, sub placement etc. Those LS 50s are really starting to grow on me  :thumb:
Well, the deal on the subs fell through due to sellers remorse and that’s ok. There’s always another product or deal that comes along at the appropriate time......

well, unless you were going to get them at 33% of retail or less, consider yourself lucky.  ;)

doug s.

No, sir. Wasn’t at 33% 😀 Doug, I know you’re an advocate of “abr”.....anything but REL. But there are a few things that make me like them. The small footprint, the speakon connectors and the ability to place them conveniently. I don’t know of another sub manufacturer who uses speakons.
Having read up a bit on sub placement and the “subwoofer crawl” , I don’t have the ability to put  them wherever the sound would be optimized. Making my wife happy is a big part of ghe equation too.

It’s interesting that the LS 50s continue to improve. Whether that’s tweaking as to placement or playing with the foam plugs or something else, I don’t know. But as I recall, these KEFs were used in a second system and I wonder if they were ever completely broken in. The seller is moving.....or has already moved.... overseas, so I’ll never know
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on May 11, 2018, 10:54:42 PM
Still looking into subs. Was looking at Dannys 12” kit and waiting for a guy to contact me and give a quote to build the cabinet. It appears best performance is between a 1.5 to 1.8 cu ft enclosure. Does anyone know if making it smaller will simply lessen the performance from maybe 18 hz to say 24 hz?
I presume it will screw up the performance, but just wanted to ask. The F12 Rythmik is too big. L12 not too bad as to size....and money.
Another question is what is the effect of having to use a splitter for the line connection?
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on May 11, 2018, 11:10:43 PM
I have all GIK panels here done about 6 months ago. Changed the whole sound of my system so work very well.
Pretty nice choices for art panels too. Mine are just burgundy in color. But the single best thing I have done for the room/system in 10 years! Beyond wires etc. etc . Unfortunately probably the last thing we think of.

Never heard back from the GIK guys..... guess they have enough sales.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on May 12, 2018, 02:54:11 PM
Still looking into subs. Was looking at Dannys 12” kit and waiting for a guy to contact me and give a quote to build the cabinet. It appears best performance is between a 1.5 to 1.8 cu ft enclosure. Does anyone know if making it smaller will simply lessen the performance from maybe 18 hz to say 24 hz?
I presume it will screw up the performance, but just wanted to ask. The F12 Rythmik is too big. L12 not too bad as to size....and money.
Another question is what is the effect of having to use a splitter for the line connection?
the cabinet plans for danny's subwoofer kit will give you a subwoofer with the exact dimensions as the rythmik f12.  yes, you could likely make it smaller, but it seems that specific size has been optimized.  perhaps it's worth querying danny and/or rythmik about it.  i'd also query rythmik about whether they could sell you a special L12 w/the a370 amp instead of the hx300, as this would basically give you the smaller cabinet w/the same amp & driver as the f12 or danny's kit w/his cabinet plans.  (they actually sell an f12 w/the hx300 amp for less $; maybe they'd do it in reverse, for an upcharge over the regular L12.)  might save time/money.

i wouldn't worry about any issues w/using a splitter, unless your output impedance of your preamp (or source) is more than 1.5k.  typically, you want to make sure that your output impedance is 1/10th the input impedance of the amps.  using a splitter will effectively be reducing the input impedance of the amps by about half.  but, your amp has input impedance of 100k, and the rythmik amps have input impedance of 30k; it's unlikely that you have a source that is more than 1.5k output impedance.  at 1.5k output impedance of your sources, the rythmik's effective 15k input impedance resulting from using a splitter will have no effect; w/the mccormack amp's effective 50k impedance, it's the same.

doug s.


I like your ideas,  Doug. I just sent an email to Rythmik detailing my situation. Would like to get the sub situation resolved.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on May 16, 2018, 11:01:07 AM
  I agree with Doug an excellent sub for your consideration.

charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: shadowlight on May 16, 2018, 11:17:11 AM
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on May 16, 2018, 12:15:35 PM
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.

D, they do? I will check it out right now. Thanks!
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: shadowlight on May 16, 2018, 01:34:25 PM
Rythmik Audio - http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 13, 2018, 10:08:54 AM
I read this entire thread again as it’s time to buy a sub. Current equipment is an ICE 1200as amp, Audio Hungary APR 204 tube preamp (coming soon from Charles), a Border Patrol SE dac and my KEF LS 50s.
I have narrowed down sub choices to SVS SB 1000, Definitive Technology Supercube 4000, Rythmik L12 and maybe a dsp custom unit from Rick Craig at Selah. The Selah would be a bit pricey at over $1,000.
My preferences are a smaller than larger footprint, less than 50 lbs and that’s one of the reasons I like the SVS SB 1000, the bass response is down to 24 Hz and it’s about $500 new.

I would like comments about the value of a dsp unit like what Rick would make for me vs just getting a non dsp sub. Is a dsp sub worth having ? Ideally, I’d like to place it in the left front corner. Not critical, but an ideal placement. If I get a regular sub or servo controlled unit and it’s not the ideal location, then I’d lose some performance. I’ve read up on the subwoofer crawl thing, so that should dial in the best location.
I’d appreciate any comments
Nick
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/supercube-4000
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000



Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on July 13, 2018, 12:58:19 PM
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly

For time alignment to the main speakers, position the sub at or within the radius of the main speakers to your listening position. Ideally the KEF woofer and center of sub cone should be the exact same distance to your earhole, within 2". If the sub is closer to you than the mains, use the sub delay knob to compensate. If the sub is farther from you than the mains (like you propose, and like most subs hidden in the front corner) then you MUST use DSP to delay the main speakers to allow the sub wave to catch up. miniDSP? HT Rx? Pre/pro? etc...
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 13, 2018, 02:22:37 PM
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly
Would you be surprised if I agreed with you?  ;)
Phase alignment is very important, misalignment with certainly show up in the frequency domain. I also recommend, regardless of budget, 2 subs, never one, unless you listen only to pop/HT. There is spatial content down to very low frequencies with acoustic music and mono bass has zero chance of reproducing that. My 2c

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 13, 2018, 08:11:36 PM
Ok, I get it re the time alignment thing. This kind of implies that a fair number of folks are getting mediocre/less than optimal sound,  by putting a sub in an out of the way spot and hoping for the best. I was going to place the sub in front of the left speaker and near the side wall, either firing toward the center...at a right angle to the front of the kef, or angled toward my listening chair. Kind of like the left side of an isosceles triangle.
If I pick a small enough sub, it could permanently be in the center in front of the equipment rack and the speakers.  It’s its too big, then it’s a no as to function and looks. Moving a sub into position each time I listen doesn’t sound like fun.
What’s the value of the old subwoofer crawl then if you don’t have a sub with dsp capability?
As to two subs, I’d prefer not to do it. It’s a small living room and it has to be functional. I don’t listen to classical and a lot of the music is fair to middling. I’d rather listen to songs that I like than songs where the recordings are outstanding, but I don’t care for the content. Maybe some day when I have a dedicated listening room.
As to a servo sub, wouldn’t the servo software act like dsp capability rendering the placement not as critical?
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: richidoo on July 14, 2018, 09:03:07 AM
Here's a sub for ya, Nick

(https://www.transcendentsound.com/images/bucket-sub/BS.jpg)

https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html. 

If you use a 7 gallon bucket (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I0BVINY) instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 14, 2018, 09:43:48 AM
Here's a sub for ya, Nick

(https://www.transcendentsound.com/images/bucket-sub/BS.jpg)

https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html. 

If you use a 7 gallon bucket (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I0BVINY) instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB

Rich,
Hmm, an Ed Schilling special 😀 Building one of these had not been on my “bucket list”. But I admire the ingenuity. At the rate I’m going in trying to understand the brave new world of subwoofers,
maybe I’ll do it. Or I could simply get the KEF R300 and sell the LS 50s.
https://www.kefdirect.com/r300-bookshelf-speaker-pair.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7aqKtoSf3AIVg8hkCh2NhQeuEAQYASABEgK0yfD_BwE
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: rollo on July 14, 2018, 11:13:44 AM
  Let me add a thingie or two. I would not use outboard subs. Would prefer a full range speaker instead. Or at a minimum 30Hz at bottom.  Either Fritz or AJ's speaker. Bass  is low enough for most music. I had both AJ's and Fritz in my home. Both excellent designs. Both do not require a sub. KEF makes a VG speaker as well however IMHO overwhelming on top.
AJ's design is excellent all around.
Getting a sub or subs can be a royal PITA to get right. With the stand mounted speaker being 2ft from front wall the bass will be naturally reinforced from that wall. Save your money on the sub, subs and considera different speaker.


charles
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 14, 2018, 04:52:10 PM
Lots of opinions and I appreciate that. Why can’t anything ever be easy  :duh  From what I’ve read so far, the time alignment thing applies whether or not the sub is firing down or to the front. Earlier, I certainly understood that there was some trial and error in dialing in the best performance, but wasn’t aware of this aspect.
I certainly can, for more money of course, get two reasonably sized subs and put them between the speakers and on each side of the equipment rack and parallel to the front of the kefs and apparently no time alignment issues....maybe. I wonder, though, the effect of having the couch on the left side of the room. It would be about 2’ back from the side of the couch and the couch would cover ...from 2’ back...about have of a 12” driver. Would that affect the performance of the apparent omni  directional low frequency waves, I have no idea. Now if I keep my analog rig, then another rack would be necessary and be right next to the current rack, so there’d be no room for two subs. I wouldn’t place that second sub out in the living room as apparently that would cause a time alignment problem and  another reason certainly being my wife’s desires not to do so. 
Then with two subs there are more wires to deal with. Sooo, I’ll keep reading and getting opinions for the time being.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 14, 2018, 08:11:52 PM
well... re: racks, i would consider getting a single rack that can hold two components side-by-side, instead of two separate racks.  it might leave room for two subs like the L12's to still fit in between the rack and the speakers.  (i'd recommend that style of rack anyway, even if subs were not part of the equation, simply to lower the equipment - less interference w/the monitors' soundstaging.)

if two subs still will not fit, then you can make custom stands that will straddle them, and the subs can reside directly below the speakers.  or, get short stands, and w/vibration control, place them directly atop the subs...

oh, and regarding the couch, i suspect that whatever negative effects it has, it's acting on the monitors, and won't be much of an issue w/subs.

doug s.

Re the rack, mine is new and I should have thought of that option before purchasing. Two sub or not two sub, that is the question......
Thanks for your thoughts on the couch. It has nowhere else to go in the living room
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 15, 2018, 07:13:53 AM
Are the LS50s on stands?
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Are the LS50s on stands?

Yes,
I just ordered B & W stands a few days ago as the ones designed for the LS 50s have such a small top plate
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 15, 2018, 11:55:16 AM
I was going to suggest DIY subwoofer stands....
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 15, 2018, 03:00:18 PM
I like the idea of the LS 50s on the subs. My stands haven’t arrived yet and I’ll talk to the dealer, who’s in Las Vegas, about this. This dealer is a long time a/v shop, but has added two channel recently and has nice gear like Naim, McIntosh, Dynadio etc.
I’m aware of the Isoacoustic stands, but don’t know anybody who’s tried them. As this is a decoupling mechanism, I bought some foam recently and will put it under the KEFs. This was after watching a Bobby Owsinski video on YouTube. But that’s another topic....
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 16, 2018, 05:27:22 AM
I like the idea of the LS 50s on the subs.
Yes, literally stands the footprint (8"w x 11" d ?) of the LS50s, whatever height desired (28-30" ?).
That would be plenty big enough enclosure for a sub. There are a number of shallow drivers that could be used dual opposed if you fret vibrations to the utmost (I don't).

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 16, 2018, 03:46:50 PM
Not worried much about vibrations, just the wife .... 😠
Still thinkin’ about all this
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: tmazz on July 16, 2018, 05:38:37 PM
Not worried much about vibrations, just the wife .... 😠
Still thinkin’ about all this

Oh, there will be plenty of vibrations if your wife is not happy with what you decide to do....   :rofl:
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2018, 12:09:51 PM
I’m not able to cancel the order on the kef speaker stands. I called SVS and Rythmik to discuss subs ....and even dual subs.  Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-opendrc-da8-floating-room-correction-dsp-8-out--230-336?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80. Of course, I’d buy used if available. That exceeds what Rick Craig would charge for one dsp sub.
Just wanted opinions about the use of an external dsp device and mic and the learning curve involved
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 18, 2018, 02:13:46 PM
Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80.
What does the $500 represent? If that is cost if you go with a pair of Rythmik L12, that's money well spent. Great subs, I've used Rythmik since '04, so 14yr old subs still going strong.
Where would the dsp slot into system? I do not recommend for anything other than bass, your KEFs are well designed on/off axis and need no "correction". Bass is a totally different story. Some EQ is almost always better. Not a fan of "auto" EQ either, but for some folks it may prove the best option.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2018, 02:24:21 PM
Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80.
What does the $500 represent? If that is cost if you go with a pair of Rythmik L12, that's money well spent. Great subs, I've used Rythmik since '04, so 14yr old subs still going strong.
Where would the dsp slot into system? I do not recommend for anything other than bass, your KEFs are well designed on/off axis and need no "correction". Bass is a totally different story. Some EQ is almost always better. Not a fan of "auto" EQ either, but for some folks it may prove the best option.

AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2018, 04:06:08 PM
I’m not able to cancel the order on the kef speaker stands. I called SVS and Rythmik to discuss subs ....and even dual subs.  Assuming for discussion sake that I really prefer a specific location for each sub being between the audio rack and each kef and slightly in front of the kefs, it appears I might need a mini dsp thing like the guy at Rythmik suggested.

https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-opendrc-da8-floating-room-correction-dsp-8-out--230-336?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

So the minisdp dra8 might do the trick plus another $60-80 for a mic. So I’m looking at $500 x 2 + $355 + $80. Of course, I’d buy used if available. That exceeds what Rick Craig would charge for one dsp sub.
Just wanted opinions about the use of an external dsp device and mic and the learning curve involved
Nick
hi nick,

assuming for discussion sake, that you would go w/a pair of subs placed as described - symmetrical, except the subs in a plane a bit forward of the kef's, i would recommend purchasing something like the mini-dsp only if you have a minimum 30 day trial period.  i say this because, in your situation, the improvements may not be worth it.  your placement sounds pretty decent, even if the subs would be a bit closer to the listening position than the kef's.

regarding learning curve, i am not familiar w/that particular product, but i can tell you that the deqx i own is not the most user friendly.  and, i did look at the minidsp a while back, thinking it might be more user-friendly, but my impressions were that it's not the case.  others who have direct experience w/it might want to chime in. 

and that particular unit looks to be digital input only?  how would you place it between your preamp and speakers/subs?  or would you only be running the subs thru it, and you'd be running the kef's full range?  while aj may be right about the kef's not really needing eq, if you're going to use an outboard box, you might want to consider something that allows you to actively cross over the amp that is driving the kef's  i think you'd find they (and their amp) to sound better if they don't have to see any frequencies below 60-80hz.  dbx makes some nice dsp crossovers, and you wouldn't have to eq the kef's if you didn't want to.  or, if you're really worried about phasing, just slide the subs back to the wall to be in line w/the kef's and minimize phase differences, and use something like a marchand x-over - high quality for the cost.  i'm using one now, because it sounds great, and i am too lazy to reprogram my deqx in my new space.  it's really not the most fun thing to do...

doug s.

Hi Doug,
The dual subs placement slightly forward of the kefs gives me a little wiggle room in case I go vinyl again and may need a bit of extra room for the TT. Otherwise, I’d be able to time align them with the kefs. I like the kefs as is and don’t see a need to make corrections for room anomalies, but heck, I don’t know enough right now. My thoughts would be just to subject the subs to dsp.
This does add up to some extra 💰 re the dsp thing and I find it quite annoying that this audio hobby costs me more than I want to spend 😳
I’m looking at a fair amount of YouTube videos on subs and some guys like Paul McGowan are easy to understand. I wouldn’t look forward to learning all about dsp software and having to take multiple measurements etc
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 18, 2018, 06:21:16 PM
AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
Ok, for the same price I'd go with the Rythmik, but the SVS is no slouch. Your call. Rythmik goes deeper with more wallop, but you said you don't listen to classical/pipe organs stuff, so may be moot. Your back might prefer the SVS over the 2x weight Rythmik (bigger motor and linear PS vs switch mode). Don't worry about subs forward of KEFs. That's not how phase alignment works. The DSP can create a small delay to align, but the low pass filter itself is already doing that, so may be moot.
I'm not clear on your system architecture (preamp???) so where does the Minidsp slot? If you run LP, you ok with digitizing? Nothing wrong if DAC is transparent, but some folks balk at that.
If you have a dual out preamp, that opens a lot of possibilities. You could keep all as is, use 2nd output for DSP/bass only. Avoid any further DSP for the KEFs.
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2018, 09:18:05 PM
Hi Doug,
The dual subs placement slightly forward of the kefs gives me a little wiggle room in case I go vinyl again and may need a bit of extra room for the TT. Otherwise, I’d be able to time align them with the kefs. I like the kefs as is and don’t see a need to make corrections for room anomalies, but heck, I don’t know enough right now. My thoughts would be just to subject the subs to dsp.
This does add up to some extra 💰 re the dsp thing and I find it quite annoying that this audio hobby costs me more than I want to spend 😳
I’m looking at a fair amount of YouTube videos on subs and some guys like Paul McGowan are easy to understand. I wouldn’t look forward to learning all about dsp software and having to take multiple measurements etc
Nick
nick, i know you don't want to take a loss on stands you just bought, but if you sell them, so you can place the kef's directly on the subs, you won't need any time alignment and you won't need any dsp for that.  it might end up being cheaper.

for me, the best bang-for-buck if you're going for a pair of subs would be to remove all frequencies below ~80hz from the kef's and the amp driving them.  ask aj about his speakers w/built-in powered subs, and how they relieve the rest of the speaker and the amp driving it, from seeing the lower frequencies...  and ask charles about the rethm's, w/their active subwoofer built-in, and how it relieves the horn and horn's amp from seeing the lower frequencies.  ;)

when i first went to subs, w/an active outboard x-over, my main speakers were thiel 3.5's, which are -2db at 20hz.  well, besides getting better bass, the upper bass and lower midrange were also improved, w/the thiels and their amp being crossed over at 70hz.

doug s.

Doug,
I do expect very good things from adding a sub(s). I’m still liking the kefs even though I haven’t dialed them in completely and the new laminate floor doesn’t have an area rug yet. I’d like to keep things simple for sure. The stands are sitting in Vegas at the dealer’s place, so it’s doable.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2018, 09:34:18 PM
AJ,
The SVS SB 1000 and Rythmik L12 are a little over $500 each. The only call I’ve made so far re the mini dsp is to Parts Express and the guy said to run both the subs and the LS 50s into the unit.
Nick
Ok, for the same price I'd go with the Rythmik, but the SVS is no slouch. Your call. Rythmik goes deeper with more wallop, but you said you don't listen to classical/pipe organs stuff, so may be moot. Your back might prefer the SVS over the 2x weight Rythmik (bigger motor and linear PS vs switch mode). Don't worry about subs forward of KEFs. That's not how phase alignment works. The DSP can create a small delay to align, but the low pass filter itself is already doing that, so may be moot.
I'm not clear on your system architecture (preamp???) so where does the Minidsp slot? If you run LP, you ok with digitizing? Nothing wrong if DAC is transparent, but some folks balk at that.
If you have a dual out preamp, that opens a lot of possibilities. You could keep all as is, use 2nd output for DSP/bass only. Avoid any further DSP for the KEFs.

AJ,
I just recently got rid of my heavy SP Tech speakers and the heavy McCormack amp, so adding those rythmiks isn’t super appealing. The preamp is through Charles.  It’s the Audio Hungary APR 204 tube preamp and it only has one set of outs.
http://audiohungary.com/product/apr-204/16
Charles says it’s an excellent preamp, especially for the money. I looked at pres from Cary, K & K, Herron, Allnic and others and just decided to take a chance on this one. My system performs quite well as is and I got a nice discount from Charles.
The minidsp is an inexpensive option and maybe just getting one or two subs to start and see how I can integrate them is the easy way to start. As to playing LPs, it’s a long shot that I will get back into analog.
Nick
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 19, 2018, 06:56:53 AM
Ok, sorry, I was going by your equipment list in signature. Well, if you don't mind a little smell of glue, you could get a pair of these:
https://www.parts-express.com/powered-dayton-audio-8-250-watt-compact-subwoofer-kit-with-built-in-dsp--300-7150 (https://www.parts-express.com/powered-dayton-audio-8-250-watt-compact-subwoofer-kit-with-built-in-dsp--300-7150)
For $600 you would have a pair of very small, relatively light, but very potent little subs, including all DSP needed, high pass for your KEFs and plenty EQ.
You can always get a Umik https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-umik-1-omni-directional-usb-measurement-calibrated-microphone--230-332 (https://www.parts-express.com/minidsp-umik-1-omni-directional-usb-measurement-calibrated-microphone--230-332) and REW for measurements. Plenty of online tutorials, easy setup, < $100.
My 2c
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 19, 2018, 05:33:59 PM
I called Rythmik again today and was lucky enough to talk to the owner, Brian Deng. Very nice guy. I asked about stacking the kefs on the Rythmiks using the isoacoustic stands and mentioned that the couch would somewhat block the left sub. He was somewhat concerned and suggested moving the couch back or placing each sub between the rack and each kef. He also said to test initially without using the iso stands on the sub. I’d think that would be too low, but didn’t discuss it further. He also said a symmetrical setup was not necessary and might not be best.
When I mentioned that 58 lbs is a bit heavy for me, he said it’s a typo and the weight is 47. That’s better 👍 There is a bit of a discount to buy two subs and I might take the plunge. The connections are line only and I’d need a y splitter. Brian said he’d help with connections and adjustments. I’d post a pic, but can’t lower the resolution on my iPhone
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 20, 2018, 03:54:08 AM
Nick you're all over the place man.  :D
Ok, so the KEF/B&W? stands are out and you would consider 47lbs ok?
Yes Brian Ding is cool and a very sharp guy (PhD EE, not some hack fiddling about with electronic circuits and imagining hearing stuff), he speaks my language..and knoweth what he speaks. Can't beat those L12s bang for buck and they are relatively small. So it you put short stands atop them to KEFs you'll be fine.
Wasn't aware you're not averse to y-cables (some audiophile believers freak out about simple stuff like that). That will work. The cables will act as a voltage divider, but your amp is way more power than KEFs need, so the slight drop in gain will be moot. Only potential issue is ground loops, but not inevitable. Both power supplies are well designed. If you go that route, you can avoid going through the dsp with your main amp/KEF, feed the "sub" Y out to dsp>sub. A plain ol Mindsp2x4 ($100) will be plenty there. You can high pass the KEF using an inline Fmod at say 100hz.

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 20, 2018, 04:37:17 AM
Nick you're all over the place man.  :D
Ok, so the KEF/B&W? stands are out and you would consider 47lbs ok?
Yes Brian Ding is cool and a very sharp guy (PhD EE, not some hack fiddling about with electronic circuits and imagining hearing stuff), he speaks my language..and knoweth what he speaks. Can't beat those L12s bang for buck and they are relatively small. So it you put short stands atop them to KEFs you'll be fine.
Wasn't aware you're not averse to y-cables (some audiophile believers freak out about simple stuff like that). That will work. The cables will act as a voltage divider, but your amp is way more power than KEFs need, so the slight drop in gain will be moot. Only potential issue is ground loops, but not inevitable. Both power supplies are well designed. If you go that route, you can avoid going through the dsp with your main amp/KEF, feed the "sub" Y out to dsp>sub. A plain ol Mindsp2x4 ($100) will be plenty there. You can high pass the KEF using an inline Fmod at say 100hz.

cheers,

AJ

AJ,
Yes, agree somewhat with you. Lots of opinions and information to assimilate  8-[ Heck, it took me quite a while to make a decision on speakers and those little LS 50s worked out great. 47 lbs is still more than I’d like, but better than 58 lbs.....
As to y splitters, I’m ok doing that, but would much prefer a connection like the speakons that REL and Sumiko use. SVS has speaker terminals and that’s still preferable to y splitters, but can’t have everything.....
As to a device like the minidsp, that would be ok with me.
When you combine wife + budget + space limitations, it’s never an easy process
Nick

Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: AJ Soundfield on July 22, 2018, 04:52:04 AM
47 lbs is still more than I’d like, but better than 58 lbs.....
Sure, but once you plop them in the one spot on either side of rack you want them, there is no need to move again. Placing them under KEFs will make integration easy, any resulting peaks at the LP can be easily addressed with the dsp. You can really tailor the bass sound from your seat that way. If you opt for the Minidsp2x4HD, there is a remote option, where you can use the 4 presets to have different levels/eq of bass. One for lower level listening, rocking out, etc.

As to y splitters, I’m ok doing that, but would much prefer a connection like the speakons that REL and Sumiko use. SVS has speaker terminals and that’s still preferable to y splitters, but can’t have everything.....
I'd respectfully disagree. I'd find a Y superior to using the built in speaker level high pass on any sub, because that is going to involve a large value electrolytic cap, regardless of bling brand name. It also keeps the DSP on a separate pass from your main amp. Your mains will all the flavors you have chosen with DAC, pre, etc. just like now. The dsp box will be inline only with subs. MMV.

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
Post by: Nick B on July 22, 2018, 07:07:10 AM
47 lbs is still more than I’d like, but better than 58 lbs.....
Sure, but once you plop them in the one spot on either side of rack you want them, there is no need to move again. Placing them under KEFs will make integration easy, any resulting peaks at the LP can be easily addressed with the dsp. You can really tailor the bass sound from your seat that way. If you opt for the Minidsp2x4HD, there is a remote option, where you can use the 4 presets to have different levels/eq of bass. One for lower level listening, rocking out, etc.

As to y splitters, I’m ok doing that, but would much prefer a connection like the speakons that REL and Sumiko use. SVS has speaker terminals and that’s still preferable to y splitters, but can’t have everything.....
I'd respectfully disagree. I'd find a Y superior to using the built in speaker level high pass on any sub, because that is going to involve a large value electrolytic cap, regardless of bling brand name. It also keeps the DSP on a separate pass from your main amp. Your mains will all the flavors you have chosen with DAC, pre, etc. just like now. The dsp box will be inline only with subs. MMV.

cheers,

AJ

I’m still deciding on which brand of subs. After some discussion, my wife would prefer to start by simply placing the subs either side of the rack. If that isn’t satisfactory, then kefs on top of the subs. Yesterday, I did some reading and looked on YouTube regarding the minidsp. Seems quite an excellent product and at excellent prices.
As to the y splitter, the speakon is simply my preference as to how to make the connection. I wouldn’t be qualified as to judge anything else.