AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: Werd on December 03, 2013, 07:59:13 PM

Title: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on December 03, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
I never thought I would say this but I think Class D is going to be the big force in solid state very shortly. I had a friend bring over a Chapter 250s integrated.

http://www.chapteraudio.co.uk/products/hardback/precis-250s/#/overview (http://www.chapteraudio.co.uk/products/hardback/precis-250s/#/overview)

He borrowed me the amp and i let him use a pair of Wharfedales opus I wasn't using. With out going into a winded review I will say this.

Like Valves amps being legendary for their midrange bloom. The class D amps I have heard all have a synthetic bloom to them that is all their own including Micromega and Devaliet . Its a very nice quality that I don't hear from regular A/B nonlinear power.  We did a full swap and I own it now. This is the nicest integrated I have heard and it literally cleans house with separates in the same price.

Anyways I thought I would share it.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: sleepyguy24 on December 04, 2013, 07:07:18 AM
Thanks for sharing. I dabbled in Class D type amps a couple of years ago but they were lower wattage per channel amps or DIY class D amps. I just felt in my systems they were too polite. The soundstage wasn't as wide and bass wasn't tight. I strongly preferred Class A type amps or Class AB type amps like the older McCormack DNA amps. After reading more postings here I may try Class D type amps in my systems when the money allows.

I saw this write up about Crown XLS Class D amps and these are the ones I may want to try as they won't crush my wallet.

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/review-crown-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier/ (http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/review-crown-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier/)
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on December 04, 2013, 08:45:03 AM
Werd could not agree more. I never thought my beloved SET amps or AR classic 60 would be replaced by class "D".
    On a whim  with a preconceived opinion of "no way" can it be better with my system. Tried one now selling the line as you all know.
    There are several contenders out there these days. Try em and be as surprised as me.
   Werd enjoy your new component.  Who knew ?  :lol:


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on December 04, 2013, 11:46:29 AM
Thanks for sharing. I dabbled in Class D type amps a couple of years ago but they were lower wattage per channel amps or DIY class D amps. I just felt in my systems they were too polite. The soundstage wasn't as wide and bass wasn't tight. I strongly preferred Class A type amps or Class AB type amps like the older McCormack DNA amps. After reading more postings here I may try Class D type amps in my systems when the money allows.

I saw this write up about Crown XLS Class D amps and these are the ones I may want to try as they won't crush my wallet.

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/review-crown-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier/ (http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/review-crown-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier/)

I know what you mean. Make sure you use Xlr in. I love both presentations on this but rca does shrink the stage in the lower gain setting. I bump up the gain and it mostly comes back but not like the Xlr.  I still prefer the rca but Its probably cabling brand that I like atm.

When you find one you like its gonzo.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on December 04, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
Werd could not agree more. I never thought my beloved SET amps or AR classic 60 would be replaced by class "D".
    On a whim  with a preconceived opinion of "no way" can it be better with my system. Tried one now selling the line as you all know.
    There are several contenders out there these days. Try em and be as surprised as me.
   Werd enjoy your new component.  Who knew ?  :lol:


charles

We think alike as usual ..  :thumb:. What are you selling?
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: JBryan on December 05, 2013, 08:02:35 AM
I've tried several D-amps and while they never really contended with SET amps on my top horns (too 'solid-state' for my taste), they are a great match with my bass horns. I used various D-amps up to 200 watts on the bins but settled on a pr of Gainclone monos pushing @50w. They sound relaxed yet detailed and allow the bins to run fairly flat down to 32Hz with a 6dB drop below 35Hz and 10dB below 30. What I really liked about the GC more so than 100-200w tubed and SS amps was their fast, tight and visceral bass - obvious even at the lower wattage. Another BIG bonus is that I can leave the amps on 24/7 and they use the same power as a flashlight bulb at idle and so they are always ready. The other tube/SS amps I tried would take up to 2-3 hours to warm up and I just don't have that much time to wait for the bass to tighten up.

I'm still open to trying Class D amps on the top horns but I just don't see the technology surpassing the sound offered by SETs anytime soon. I'm also interested in putting more power into the bass bins and finding another D-amp that is more powerful, relaxed, tight and visceral than the GC's seems more viable.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on December 05, 2013, 08:18:28 AM
  Horns mostly sound better with SET, however there are exceptions. Hybrid class "D" has a chance but not a cure all nothing is.
   On Klipsh the class "D" hybrid was really good. But as we all know personal taste rules over any component.
    Werd we sell Arion class "D" mono blocks the HS500 hybrid version and the non hybrid version. prices range from $3400 to $7200 a pair. Top of the line features Duelund CAST output caps and JPS internal wire.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: bhobba on December 05, 2013, 03:38:54 PM
IMHO Class D is already the big thing.

I own 2 - The Arion HS-500 with Cast Rollo mentioned and the little S-250 Rollo didn't mention:
http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Amplifier-SS/Arion-Audio/S-250/250-watts-per-channel-stereo-amplifier/70729 (http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Amplifier-SS/Arion-Audio/S-250/250-watts-per-channel-stereo-amplifier/70729)

At our recent amp GTG the Arion went neck to neck with a $35K Gryphon, with the Gryphon just pipping it.

Overall, for all types of music and 2 channel home theatre, the best value IMHO was the S-250 for me.  And it will drive anything.

The interesting dark horse though was a very heavily upgraded Leak.  Wild sound - just had to get one myself for upgrade.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Triode Pete on December 05, 2013, 04:03:42 PM

The interesting dark horse though was a very heavily upgraded Leak.  Wild sound - just had to get one myself for upgrade.

Thanks
Bill


The Leak gear from England was always well "laid-out" and well made with point to point wiring. It was always great gear & great sounding"... similar to the old tubed McIntosh & Marantz gear...

My $0.02,
Pete
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Response Audio on December 07, 2013, 09:42:37 AM
I agree with all the comments here about Class D being the future but still find that a hybrid design is very much needed. I have been using our hybrid design for a couple years now. I still very much enjoy tubes, especially SET but for everyday listening, I use the Class D hybrid.

There are some new Class D ODM manufacturers that seem to really have their act together. Stay tuned aa

Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: DaveC on December 07, 2013, 09:49:50 AM
Yeah, D is improving and will offer high quality amplification at lower prices eventually. For now, I don't think it can keep up with the best class A amps, tube or SS, but it's close and getting closer everyday.

One thing about D amps is it seems they require more tweaking to get the sound right and they react more strongly to changes in wiring, caps, etc...

Re that Leak amp above, Solen caps combined with Duelund...  :lol: Might try the Clarity TC caps there instead.

Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Bob in St. Louis on December 07, 2013, 03:03:16 PM
The nice thing about class D is that it's cheap. Those of us less fortunate that see this as the most "plentiful and financially attractive forms of amplification" might be worried that the audiophiles of the world find out what we've known all along and jack the price up.

So....In closing....I'd like to say that class D sucks, and y'all shouldn't buy into this theory that you will like it.

Don't even audition it, it really sucks. Keep your toobs.

Bob
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: topround on December 08, 2013, 03:52:03 AM
Bob,
you don't find the tonality of class D to be a bit off?

Of all the class D I heard I was always impressed by what so little parts could do, but in the end it was the tonality that had me scratching my head why I ultimately did not like it.

I think a tube pre in front would have to be a neccessity with a class D amp.

and I agree in the future it will be all class D
I am a vinyl guy but I know in the future it will all be digital downloads, especially as the bit depth increases you get closer to the resolution of vinyl
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Bob in St. Louis on December 08, 2013, 06:16:31 AM
Honestly, the only class D I've ever heard used above 100-120 Hz was in some four thousand dollar "audio chair" that Scott F had in his house. The nearfield mounted speakers sounded amazing, even Scott and his trained ear thought it was fantastic.

Other than that, I've only heard it used for subwoofer duty.

My earlier post wasn't entirely .....shall we say......"accurate".
I had a few cocktails and was feeling feisty.

Bob
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on December 08, 2013, 07:04:40 AM
Bob,
you don't find the tonality of class D to be a bit off?

Of all the class D I heard I was always impressed by what so little parts could do, but in the end it was the tonality that had me scratching my head why I ultimately did not like it.

I think a tube pre in front would have to be a neccessity with a class D amp.

and I agree in the future it will be all class D
I am a vinyl guy but I know in the future it will all be digital downloads, especially as the bit depth increases you get closer to the resolution of vinyl

From what I've noticed Class D is all about noise. If its too noisy then your back in time. if you can keep the noise down there is synthetic bloom thats really engaging. This integrated specs at 125db and that's amazing for an integrated and it explains all the air I get.

You have to cable into it too.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: BobM on December 09, 2013, 06:30:03 AM
It is certainly getting better and, like most new things in audio land, it will need time to mature and become truly good. This is probably one of those rare times though when the affordability of the hardware is a key factor, so the mass market consumer will likely drive the development. Bottom up instead of top down.

Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on December 09, 2013, 09:26:26 AM
Yeah, D is improving and will offer high quality amplification at lower prices eventually. For now, I don't think it can keep up with the best class A amps, tube or SS, but it's close and getting closer everyday.

One thing about D amps is it seems they require more tweaking to get the sound right and they react more strongly to changes in wiring, caps, etc...

Re that Leak amp above, Solen caps combined with Duelund...  :lol: Might try the Clarity TC caps there instead.




  Yes Sir try those Clarity TC with Duelund. Very good combo. Put the Duelund first.
   Not all class "D" amps are equal. Meaning the modules themselves. Off the shelf class "D" switching power supplies and power modules are not the good ones out there.
   The power supply is key. Arions power supplies are not off the shelf supplies. They are custom designed and manufactured by a Military manf. who specializes in Submarine power supplies. No B&O or Ncore modules here.
     The analog board as well is custom designed and choke regulated utilizing a 6H30 super tube for the input. With both low and high gain outputs available one can optimize the preamp synergy.
    In my experience class "D" needs some meat on the bone. I agree with Bill baker hybrid offers more in class "D". Great as designed with the ability to swap tubes.
    To date we love the Reflector DR 6H30 but the cryo Sovtek or EH are different and depends on what output cap one has installed. The stock version with a Cardas cap likes the cryo Sovtek and the Duelund likes the Reflector. You have options.
      Accuracy and presence with emotion are the hybrid class "D".


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: bhobba on December 09, 2013, 07:32:45 PM
Yes Sir try those Clarity TC with Duelund. Very good combo. Put the Duelund first.

Got myself a Leak and it arrived a couple of days ago.

Contacted the local valve guru out our way - he posts as Stevenvalve on our forums here in Aus - who knows the valves for it backwards and got some Mullard EL34 and other stuff he thinks is the bees knees.

Next stop - upgrading resistors and caps and will keep that combo with Clarity Cap in mind - but am thinking of the Duelund Cast instead of VSF Copper.

Also, have been hearing good things about the latest Prima Luna valve amps.  Evidently it stood up to the Arions pretty well - the Arions were better, especially in the bass, but it was supposedly surprisingly good.  

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on March 20, 2014, 09:08:56 AM
I've tried several D-amps and while they never really contended with SET amps on my top horns (too 'solid-state' for my taste), they are a great match with my bass horns. I used various D-amps up to 200 watts on the bins but settled on a pr of Gainclone monos pushing @50w. They sound relaxed yet detailed and allow the bins to run fairly flat down to 32Hz with a 6dB drop below 35Hz and 10dB below 30. What I really liked about the GC more so than 100-200w tubed and SS amps was their fast, tight and visceral bass - obvious even at the lower wattage. Another BIG bonus is that I can leave the amps on 24/7 and they use the same power as a flashlight bulb at idle and so they are always ready. The other tube/SS amps I tried would take up to 2-3 hours to warm up and I just don't have that much time to wait for the bass to tighten up.

I'm still open to trying Class D amps on the top horns but I just don't see the technology surpassing the sound offered by SETs anytime soon. I'm also interested in putting more power into the bass bins and finding another D-amp that is more powerful, relaxed, tight and visceral than the GC's seems more viable.

One word......  MARASCHINO.  If you haven't heard it, you don't know how good Class-D can do it ALL, like response down to DC and past 100kHz, near zero distortion, super low output impedance, and incredible speed.  It's pretty new, so there are only a few reviews so far.......

-Tommy O
 
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on March 23, 2014, 07:35:58 AM
Werd why not consider a class "D" for the bass and an SET for the mids and top ?
   SET sound and class "D" are just two different animals. SET sound in general offers an airey lush character and low power. Great but limited.  Class "D" on the other hand is not colored has awesome bass and a linear sound.
   With the option of a hybrid class "D" you can have some tube color and accuracy and slam to boot. Class "D" amps are accused of being thin and emotionless but accurate as hell. . No meat on the bone per say.
    There are exceptions you just need to try the different offerings out there. One size never fits all.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Response Audio on March 23, 2014, 07:56:12 AM
There will always be controversy on new technologies for several years after being introduced.

I for one like the idea of Hybrid Class D and have personally been using this design for several years now. One of our Musica Bella products that is quickly becoming very popular is our Hybrid Class D Ibrido amplifier. It started out as many customers started using our stand alone Segue buffer in front of various Class D amps and we then combined the two into a single power amp configuration. I feel the hybrid design provides just the right balance.

As everyone knows I design for Purity as well, we will soon be releasing a new Class D Hybird amplifier that will grab passionate music lovers by the horns.

As Charles mentioned, "One size never fits all". This is true with anything and everything audio.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: sleepyguy24 on July 11, 2014, 10:40:32 AM
I gotta agree with mating Class D type amps with a tube front end. With a pair of Red Dragon M1000 monoblocks and a EE MiniMax Tube DAC being the source I found a sound in my system that I really enjoy. When I tried budget Class D amps in the past I didn't have any tubes in the system chain and I found the sound to be dull, cold and rather un-involving.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 25, 2014, 01:31:16 PM
I've  got the mother lode of Class D in house atm. chapter 400s couplet


(http://imageshack.us/a/img590/3536/8aa24e.jpg)

400 per side and 800 into 4ohms. Its so synthetic and not at all thin with my Acoutic zens. Got it on borrow.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 25, 2014, 01:35:39 PM
Werd why not consider a class "D" for the bass and an SET for the mids and top ?
   SET sound and class "D" are just two different animals. SET sound in general offers an airey lush character and low power. Great but limited.  Class "D" on the other hand is not colored has awesome bass and a linear sound.
   With the option of a hybrid class "D" you can have some tube color and accuracy and slam to boot. Class "D" amps are accused of being thin and emotionless but accurate as hell. . No meat on the bone per say.
    There are exceptions you just need to try the different offerings out there. One size never fits all.


charles

Would have to reinvent my whole system and it seems like to much work.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Nick B on July 25, 2014, 02:43:06 PM
Werd...yep...too much work and then there's the $$$ as well. But if time and money were no object for me........  :beer:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 25, 2014, 07:18:00 PM
Werd...yep...too much work and then there's the $$$ as well. But if time and money were no object for me........  :beer:

 :beer:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Bob in St. Louis on July 25, 2014, 08:17:11 PM
Holy Mother of boat anchors! That thing is massive.  :shock:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: DaveC on July 26, 2014, 10:11:06 AM
Those are some big amps, Werd!  :)

I do agree with rollo's advise, class D and woofers go well together while using a class D amp full range is a lot more hit or miss. Class D amps are tweaky, meaning they respond too much to changes in minor things like vibration isolation, and cables can be a major factor in defining the sound of the system where with other amps the cables contribution is more like a smaller adjustment rather than a huge, major change.

But I also agree with "too much work" as an active biamp system is not everyone's cup of tea.

I am working on a modular speaker system that will be available either with a simple, 1st order passive crossover and I also plan on offering an active solution where the best amp for the job will be used, and it will have a combination of class D on the woofers (<800 Hz) and a SET amp for the high frequency drivers. The SET amp will use the interstage coupling RC filter as the crossover, so there will be nothing extra added to the signal path to achieve a 1st order line-level high pass filter.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 26, 2014, 05:50:16 PM
Holy Mother of boat anchors! That thing is massive.  :shock:

No kidding, its heavy as it is big at over 100lbs. Me being a librarian (check my profile pic on left) took a big lift that hurt all day.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 27, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
This Amp thingy is a seriousily good amp. You are not going to say its studio neutral. Its not anywhere near that. We can leave those claims for class A or even more A/B. Its in a class of its own description. This is  Hi Fi driven pure signal class D driven output. Its what an over designed Home theatre receiver can only dream of. Its so alluring and synthetic. Pure Hifi at its best. Imagine no distortion resolution with noiseless air and background.

I've heard 240 watt Devaliet and it sounds solid state. This is different in the weight of every delivered instrument of sound. Whether its filler or upfront guitar its gives you a strong synthethetic rendition of its sound.
Fuck its beautiful and fuck that neutral studio bulllshit. I want this.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: tmazz on July 28, 2014, 06:41:17 PM
Fuck its beautiful and fuck that neutral studio bulllshit. I want this.

Hey, if it makes YOU happy, that's all that counts.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on July 28, 2014, 07:01:41 PM
Fuck its beautiful and fuck that neutral studio bulllshit. I want this.

Hey, if it makes YOU happy, that's all that counts.  :thumb:

What can I say. I was hammered when I wrote that.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: jimbones on July 28, 2014, 07:04:49 PM
I've tried several D-amps and while they never really contended with SET amps on my top horns (too 'solid-state' for my taste), they are a great match with my bass horns. I used various D-amps up to 200 watts on the bins but settled on a pr of Gainclone monos pushing @50w. They sound relaxed yet detailed and allow the bins to run fairly flat down to 32Hz with a 6dB drop below 35Hz and 10dB below 30. What I really liked about the GC more so than 100-200w tubed and SS amps was their fast, tight and visceral bass - obvious even at the lower wattage. Another BIG bonus is that I can leave the amps on 24/7 and they use the same power as a flashlight bulb at idle and so they are always ready. The other tube/SS amps I tried would take up to 2-3 hours to warm up and I just don't have that much time to wait for the bass to tighten up.

I'm still open to trying Class D amps on the top horns but I just don't see the technology surpassing the sound offered by SETs anytime soon. I'm also interested in putting more power into the bass bins and finding another D-amp that is more powerful, relaxed, tight and visceral than the GC's seems more viable.

One word......  MARASCHINO.  If you haven't heard it, you don't know how good Class-D can do it ALL, like response down to DC and past 100kHz, near zero distortion, super low output impedance, and incredible speed.  It's pretty new, so there are only a few reviews so far.......

-Tommy O
 

How do they compare to say a Pass Labs amp or McCormack?
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on February 05, 2015, 11:48:35 AM
I've tried several D-amps and while they never really contended with SET amps on my top horns (too 'solid-state' for my taste), they are a great match with my bass horns. I used various D-amps up to 200 watts on the bins but settled on a pr of Gainclone monos pushing @50w. They sound relaxed yet detailed and allow the bins to run fairly flat down to 32Hz with a 6dB drop below 35Hz and 10dB below 30. What I really liked about the GC more so than 100-200w tubed and SS amps was their fast, tight and visceral bass - obvious even at the lower wattage. Another BIG bonus is that I can leave the amps on 24/7 and they use the same power as a flashlight bulb at idle and so they are always ready. The other tube/SS amps I tried would take up to 2-3 hours to warm up and I just don't have that much time to wait for the bass to tighten up.

I'm still open to trying Class D amps on the top horns but I just don't see the technology surpassing the sound offered by SETs anytime soon. I'm also interested in putting more power into the bass bins and finding another D-amp that is more powerful, relaxed, tight and visceral than the GC's seems more viable.

One word......  MARASCHINO.  If you haven't heard it, you don't know how good Class-D can do it ALL, like response down to DC and past 100kHz, near zero distortion, super low output impedance, and incredible speed.  It's pretty new, so there are only a few reviews so far.......

-Tommy O
 

How do they compare to say a Pass Labs amp or McCormack?


See CherryAmp.com for full specifications.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 07, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
If you own 48V Maraschinos, check out the DUAL 60V upgrade deal here:
http://kck.st/1EKKHSt

Check out the "rewards" section.

A little more than 3 days left on the project, so get in before it's too late.  Orders from the Kickstarter will be shipped before orders outside the program.

By the way, there's a sweet deal on a pair of demo desktop Maraschinos in there.  Only one pair available!

Thanks to Seth for adding the cable deal (see http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133137.msg1418883#msg1418883)!

-Tommy O
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on October 27, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
   Jim compared to the latest Pass amps the Arion hybrid class"D" amp still wins overall. Speakers used were BG Radia FS880 with custom crossover filled with Jupiter caps. Source was an Esoteric K1x the latest from Esoteric.
    Producing over 40W of current they are from our experience an amp to check out if one owns planars or Electrostatic speakers. Actually try any Amp with lots of current.



charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: KLH007 on October 27, 2015, 10:17:49 PM
   Jim compared to the latest Pass amps the Arion hybrid class"D" amp still wins overall. Speakers used were BG Radia FS880 with custom crossover filled with Jupiter caps. Source was an Esoteric K1x the latest from Esoteric.
    Producing over 40W of current they are from our experience an amp to check out if one owns planars or Electrostatic speakers. Actually try any Amp with lots of current.



charles

Maybe "40 amps" of current?

 
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: topround on October 28, 2015, 04:42:47 AM
nah  40 watts is good :thumb:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on October 28, 2015, 08:08:14 AM
  Made a typo thanks Kemper. 40A and 500W @8ohm and 1000w @4 Ohm. My bad  :duh :duh


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: tmazz on October 28, 2015, 09:18:23 AM
Something does not compute. 40 amps into an 8 ohm load is not 500w it is 12,800w. And to get 12.8Kw out of an amp you would need to put no less that 12.8 Kw into it. At 120 VAC that would equate to 105 amps into each monoblock, or 210 amps to run a stereo pair. I don't know too many residential homes that have that much service coming into the house period.

This is what happens when you let the marketing people write the spec sheets instead of the engineers. That amp might be able to put out a millisecond length burst that approached 40 amps if it could pull from large bank of power supply caps, but that is very different from saying the amp can produce 40 amps. Sorry, but from the point of view of an engineer that is that is just disingenuous. And I am not talking about so for repeating it, but rather the sales people who put BS numbers like that out in the market.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on October 28, 2015, 10:14:43 AM
  Tom there are marketing people involved at all. The amps output stage can produce 40A of maximum  current  output as I was told by the designer and owner of the Arion brand.
  It is on the manf. spec sheet as well. Her are the specs gotten from www.ArionAudio.com

Rated power @8 Ohm  500W and 1000W @4 Ohm
 Sens  1.8V
Input Impedance  200KOhm
Damping factor  900@8Ohm/100HZ
Max. current output   40Amp
Freq.  20 -20KHz

    

charles
  
  
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on October 28, 2015, 11:26:51 AM
Something does not compute. 40 amps into an 8 ohm load is not 500w it is 12,800w. And to get 12.8Kw out of an amp you would need to put no less that 12.8 Kw into it. At 120 VAC that would equate to 105 amps into each monoblock, or 210 amps to run a stereo pair. I don't know too many residential homes that have that much service coming into the house period.

This is what happens when you let the marketing people write the spec sheets instead of the engineers. That amp might be able to put out a millisecond length burst that approached 40 amps if it could pull from large bank of power supply caps, but that is very different from saying the amp can produce 40 amps. Sorry, but from the point of view of an engineer that is that is just disingenuous. And I am not talking about so for repeating it, but rather the sales people who put BS numbers like that out in the market.

It is 40 amps instantaneous. 40 amps is too dangerous. Any slight malfunction would destroy everything.. Lol.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on October 28, 2015, 11:40:23 AM
 Tom there are marketing people involved at all. The amps output stage can produce 40A of maximum  current  output as I was told by the designer and owner of the Arion brand.
  It is on the manf. spec sheet as well. Her are the specs gotten from www.ArionAudio.com

Rated power @8 Ohm  500W and 1000W @4 Ohm
 Sens  1.8V
Input Impedance  200KOhm
Damping factor  900@8Ohm/100HZ
Max. current output   40Amp
Freq.  20 -20KHz

    

charles
  
  

Looks good, I would like to hear it compared to my 100 lb Chapter Hybrid class D amp.  :clap: :yay2:
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: tmazz on October 28, 2015, 11:53:59 AM
 Tom there are marketing people involved at all. The amps output stage can produce 40A of maximum  current  output as I was told by the designer and owner of the Arion brand.
  It is on the manf. spec sheet as well. Her are the specs gotten from www.ArionAudio.com

Rated power @8 Ohm  500W and 1000W @4 Ohm
 Sens  1.8V
Input Impedance  200KOhm
Damping factor  900@8Ohm/100HZ
Max. current output   40Amp
Freq.  20 -20KHz

    

charles
  
  

Here is where I think the specs are misleading. All of the other specs they quote are continuous duty specs and the the throw in the 40 amps in the same way without identifying it as instantaneous peak current. the ability to hit peaks of 40 amps gives you great headroom and would make a good story if you just told it that way.

So this leads me to believe that the marketing people who put together the promotional material were at best do not understand the difference between instantaneous peak and continuous duty output or at worst deliberately deceitful. technologically clueless.

And for the record, I have nothing against Arion, but as most engineers, I don't have a lot of use for the marketing department.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on October 28, 2015, 12:01:06 PM
  Tom I will say it again NO marketing people involved what so ever.  Mike is a one Man show. No one stated instantaneous power. It is stated as maximum power output.
  I will ask Mike of Arion to post and explain as I cannot. Hopefully he will oblige.



charles
 
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: topround on October 28, 2015, 12:13:34 PM
Do these amps go to  11?
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on October 28, 2015, 01:09:39 PM
Do these amps go to  11?

   11K no $6300 the pair list price.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on October 28, 2015, 02:50:19 PM
 Tom there are marketing people involved at all. The amps output stage can produce 40A of maximum  current  output as I was told by the designer and owner of the Arion brand.
  It is on the manf. spec sheet as well. Her are the specs gotten from www.ArionAudio.com

Rated power @8 Ohm  500W and 1000W @4 Ohm
 Sens  1.8V
Input Impedance  200KOhm
Damping factor  900@8Ohm/100HZ
Max. current output   40Amp
Freq.  20 -20KHz

    

charles
  
  

Here is where I think the specs are misleading. All of the other specs they quote are continuous duty specs and the the throw in the 40 amps in the same way without identifying it as instantaneous peak current. the ability to hit peaks of 40 amps gives you great headroom and would make a good story if you just told it that way.

So this leads me to believe that the marketing people who put together the promotional material were at best do not understand the difference between instantaneous peak and continuous duty output or at worst deliberately deceitful. technologically clueless.

And for the record, I have nothing against Arion, but as most engineers, I don't have a lot of use for the marketing department.

All good high powered amps will do that. My Bryston was in that area no problem. I am sure this Chapter 400S will do it too. The power supply has to be of good quality because power out the outlet from the wall won't. It's the best argument for transformer based conditioning like the Torus because it helps relieve the amp's burden to recover and deliver high instant current.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: mfsoa on October 28, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
I had an old Harmon Kardon amp that boasted 60 amps capability. Their small integrated IIRC could do 30 or 40 amps. Of course we all know that this is instantaneous current at some very low impedance, per tmazz.

One thing I dig re class D is the set and forget nature of the beast. I don't turn my amps on or off or ever wonder if they'll rock when I ask them to. Oh the days of losing an expensive KT88 which took out my expensive fuse... :duh. What? I'm $100 away from listening to music again?  :shock:

And I like knowing that I draw close to 0 watts at idle and convert 90+% of the energy they use into music. (please don't ask about the 10 tubes glowing my pre, fed by its huge outboard power supply  :-)
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on December 01, 2015, 09:06:29 AM
 OK spoke to Mike Kalesis of Arion. He stated that the 40A is not continuous as we all know. It is MAXIMUM available. Meaning lots of headroom when needed. He felt not misleading at all because that is what it measures.
    Great for diploes of all brands and electrostatic as well. Thei are many fine amps out there however IMO [ why I took on the line] are special with MAggies, Apogee, Sound Lab and Martin Logan.
   The amps were designed using the Analysis speakers. Come hear them with all Duelund caps in the Analysis crossover and you might be as smitten as I was.
    The amps were choosen for how much we can make. They were chosen because of their sound with dipoles. Not for everyone or every speaker but if you own dipoles a demo will enlighten you as to what is possible.
    Ya NEVER know until you try. That is all ,try it costs nothing. Unless you lie them :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Response Audio on April 03, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
Still doing the Class D thing. Although I use a hybrid, I dont think I will be getting away from Class D for some time.
with the right combination, you get all the sonic benifits of both tube and solid state. Especially dynamics.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on April 04, 2016, 12:19:47 PM
Still doing the Class D thing. Although I use a hybrid, I dont think I will be getting away from Class D for some time.
with the right combination, you get all the sonic benifits of both tube and solid state. Especially dynamics.

  Yes sir. Exactly. I have been trying to show others how hybrid class "D" is better but you know you can lead them to the water but "they' must drink.
   

charles
   
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 04, 2016, 03:20:48 PM
Still doing the Class D thing. Although I use a hybrid, I dont think I will be getting away from Class D for some time.
with the right combination, you get all the sonic benifits of both tube and solid state. Especially dynamics.

  Yes sir. Exactly. I have been trying to show others how hybrid class "D" is better but you know you can lead them to the water but "they' must drink.
   

charles
   

Charles,
"Better" is an opinion here.  With Cherry amps, there is no need for such "fixing" of the amplifier by coloring the signal that feeds it.  Just ask any of our customers.  Actually, you should listen to the Maraschino (or Golden Cherry) before you conclude on what Class-D can sound like.  Thanks.

-Tommy O
Digital Amp Co
CherryAmp.com

p.s. Maraschino compared to other Class-D amps:
    - much higher bandwidth
    - several TIMES the switching frequency for higher resolution
    - patented and proprietary modulator design is proven through decades of research
    - we make our own circuits, no pre-fab modules
    - tweaked for sound quality although bench measurements are outstanding
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Response Audio on April 05, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
Quote
there is no need for such "fixing" of the amplifier by coloring the signal that feeds it.

We don't add the buffer stage to "fix" anything. It was a sonic decission based on what our customers have been asking for for several years.  Our amplifier has a 100% approval by everyone who has heard it in their systems including all current owners.

Im not making any claims that our Ibrido amplifier is "better" than anyone elses. The Ibrido is a Musica Bella product and it has lived up to all expectations. Same goes for our preamplifiers. They have certainly stood the test of time.

The Segue input stage is also available as a separate component and even available as a tube buffer preamp. Both have found their way into very expensive systems. The straight buffer between some of the best preamps and amplifiers available. Including many Class D designs and the Segue pre in front of amplifiers of all types. Tubes, solid state, hybrids and Class D.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Werd on April 05, 2016, 11:14:01 PM
Amps are not that easily dismissed as -just so long as it is neutral it is a go.- My wording but basically the intended premise here. It has to be able to power a layered 3D sound stage. This is not easy with ANY class output.
Tubes are easier since the power supplies are huge compared to the working output. Get the picture. All great power power amps are current driven and not some high gain output like used in home theatre or P.A amps.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 14, 2016, 10:05:05 AM
One technique we've used to improve audio quality and measurable performance is to shorten the audio path. For example, going direct from the DAC to the amp. However, the same can be done internally in components. This is something we do in our DAC DAC and Maraschino amplifiers.  We use as few stages as possible.  For example, we rearranged some circuitry to eliminate a buffer stage in the Maraschino.  Adding "steps" to the path can only lower performance by adding noise and distortion. In some cases, such as in a few tube preamps, the added distortion has a pleasant sound. This is VERY subjective stuff.  Well, there's my 2 cents for today (:

-Tommy O
www.CherryAmp.com
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: uncola on April 21, 2016, 06:07:40 PM
That's how I prefer to do things too.  I connect my dac directly to my speaker amp and use the dacs volume control.  I haven't heard any resolution loss although I know theoretically it's there.  I tried putting a passive preamp with super short low capacitance rcas in between the dac and amp but heard no improvement so I went back to dac as volume control.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on April 22, 2016, 05:00:50 PM
Still doing the Class D thing. Although I use a hybrid, I dont think I will be getting away from Class D for some time.
with the right combination, you get all the sonic benifits of both tube and solid state. Especially dynamics.

  Yes sir. Exactly. I have been trying to show others how hybrid class "D" is better but you know you can lead them to the water but "they' must drink.
   

charles
   

Charles,
"Better" is an opinion here.  With Cherry amps, there is no need for such "fixing" of the amplifier by coloring the signal that feeds it.  Just ask any of our customers.  Actually, you should listen to the Maraschino (or Golden Cherry) before you conclude on what Class-D can sound like.  Thanks.

-Tommy O
Digital Amp Co
CherryAmp.com

p.s. Maraschino compared to other Class-D amps:
    - much higher bandwidth
    - several TIMES the switching frequency for higher resolution
    - patented and proprietary modulator design is proven through decades of research
    - we make our own circuits, no pre-fab modules
    - tweaked for sound quality although bench measurements are outstanding


   Tom I have heard your amps. Not your latest however. Bring them to one of our AudioSyndrome meetings and we will directly compare to a hybrid design.
  For my taste all non hybrid class "D" amps I have heard are lean or bright or just Hi Fi. Sorry my experience. Change our minds.
   You make a fine product from what I have heard however nothing like a direct comparison in one system.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: KLH007 on April 23, 2016, 02:11:33 PM
Gauntlet thrown!
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 24, 2016, 11:47:41 AM


   Tom I have heard your amps. Not your latest however. Bring them to one of our AudioSyndrome meetings and we will directly compare to a hybrid design.
  For my taste all non hybrid class "D" amps I have heard are lean or bright or just Hi Fi. Sorry my experience. Change our minds.
   You make a fine product from what I have heard however nothing like a direct comparison in one system.


charles
Charles,

Yes, the proof is in the pudding.  Things are super busy for us currently, so please send me a regular email (tobrien@....) and we'll talk about getting you a pair of demo Maraschinos.  Also, please send info about your AudioSyndrome meetings.  Thanks.

-Tommy
Digital Amp Co
www.CherryAmp.com
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on April 26, 2016, 03:49:30 PM
  Will do were on. You could always send one. The club will pay the shipping back.
   We have meetings in, May & June left only. June would be good, usually a dual club meeting with lots of attendees. tentative date 3rd Friday in June.

charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on May 05, 2016, 10:03:27 AM
  Will do were on. You could always send one. The club will pay the shipping back.
   We have meetings in, May & June left only. June would be good, usually a dual club meeting with lots of attendees. tentative date 3rd Friday in June.

charles
Charles,
I haven't seen the regular email from you. Did you send one yet?  Thanks.
-Tommy O
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on May 14, 2016, 10:37:01 AM
  Will do were on. You could always send one. The club will pay the shipping back.
   We have meetings in, May & June left only. June would be good, usually a dual club meeting with lots of attendees. tentative date 3rd Friday in June.

charles
Charles,
I haven't seen the regular email from you. Did you send one yet?  Thanks.
-Tommy O
Time is running out.  Please contact me, Charles. Thanks.
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on May 17, 2016, 06:21:17 PM
   Sorry tom have been a bit busy taking care of my wife and getting our new products out there.
    Our June meeting is open for you if you like. The host uses Bryston 28B mono blocks.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on May 19, 2016, 06:59:42 AM
   Sorry tom have been a bit busy taking care of my wife and getting our new products out there.
    Our June meeting is open for you if you like. The host uses Bryston 28B mono blocks.


charles
Please send me info about when/where.  Thanks.
Title: Golden Cherry review / An Interview with Tommy O'Brien of Digital Amp Co
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 03, 2017, 11:32:48 AM
New review (and interview)....
Part 1 of Golden Cherry review in POF: An Interview with Tommy O'Brien of Digital Amplifier Company:
http://positive-feedback.com/interviews/tommy-obrien-digital-amplifier-co/

"....these GOLDEN CHERRY Digital Amp Co. gems may be the single most transparent, uncolored, and precise amplification experience...."

"So what exactly are you doing in your amplifiers (and DACs) that is different from everyone else?"

"I made a cattle-prod circuit from a Radio Shack Electronics Kit"
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: ampdesigner333 on April 19, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
   Sorry tom have been a bit busy taking care of my wife and getting our new products out there.
    Our June meeting is open for you if you like. The host uses Bryston 28B mono blocks.


charles
Charles,

Take a look at this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/378044010/maraschino-video-series

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Tommy
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: Response Audio on May 02, 2017, 08:33:15 AM
Hey Charles. Out of curiosity,  what preamp will you be using in your.June gathering?
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: rollo on May 09, 2017, 08:07:12 AM
Hey Charles. Out of curiosity,  what preamp will you be using in your.June gathering?


   Bryston preamp as well.


charles
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: dflee on June 29, 2017, 06:07:48 AM
So, did the Golden Cherrry make it to the gathering?
What's the verdict?

Don
Title: Re: Doin the Class D thing
Post by: mfsoa on June 29, 2017, 03:12:02 PM
Don,

If you are near NJ I'd be happy to show you my Cherries, although they are red and not yet fully golden.
Oh my what have I said.

-Mike