Author Topic: Subwoofer integration question  (Read 11911 times)

Offline Werd

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Subwoofer integration question
« on: December 26, 2014, 03:00:13 PM »
What is the best method for picking a sub, do you look at the size of the woofer vs the main speakers drivers? Or is it the room and placement that dictates the type of sub woofer size and choice?
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2014, 04:40:47 PM »
What is the best method for picking a sub, do you look at the size of the woofer vs the main speakers drivers? Or is it the room and placement that dictates the type of sub woofer size and choice?

Budget is the primary driver of sub choice.

Generally:
Sealed is lower distortion than ported.
Bigger woofer is lower distortion than smaller.
Bigger sounds better and more relaxed than smaller woofers.
Stereo subs are better than single.
Ported is good for HT, but expensive ported can be good enough for music.

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2014, 04:46:11 PM »
Infinite Baffle, if you'e got the space. Obviously, the determining factors there are space and a desire to feel your pant legs, kidneys, and the hair on your head resonate.

Open baffle for the clarity and non "muddy, boomy" sometimes heard with other designs.

Both can create the tactile, visceral punch in the chest if the content requires it.

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Offline tmazz

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2014, 07:19:42 PM »
I just got a sub for my Nola Boxers. I spoke with Carl Marchisotto from Nola and his only advise was to get a sub with as small a driver as possible because the boxer has a 6.5" woofer and if I got something with a 12' driver it would have a hard time keeping up with the speed of the Nolas.

Well I ended up getting a Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Jr, which has a 7.5" driver and it integrates very well with the Nolas. As a matter of fact last night we were listening to the system and my son said "I know the bass is better because I know what this recording sounded like before, but I'll be damned if I can hear the woofer. It just blends right in and doesn't call any attention to itself."

So like anything else in this hobby synergy plays a huge role in what works well in a particular system and in picking a sub I think one of the first thing one must do is evaluate the bass characteristics of your present speakers and figure out what type of sub will mate well with them so as to enhance the sound of the system as a whole.
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Werd

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2014, 07:54:12 PM »
That's interesting. you got a woofer smaller than your mains.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2014, 08:43:52 PM »
Hi, all.

This is timely for me as I am seriously considering buying the new Rythmik Double  8" sealed sub. I actually want two but financial constraints prevent my buying the second for now.  :(   Eventually I'll have two - one per monitor in my system.

If I had the room for them I'd consider OB,  but room limitations and WAF don't allow this.

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Offline Response Audio

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 08:56:57 AM »
For myself, the biggest factor is if it has the capability to keep up with my mains. I think sonically matching a sub to the mains is critical (if primarily for 2-channel listening). A sub for me has to be very fast. I prefer using high effeciency woofers for a sub. I would give up a few low end Hz before sound quality.
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Offline Werd

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 11:49:16 AM »
I wonder if Tmazz's strategy is correct on the size of the sub woofer for maximum integration? Or is it just the quality of that sub? hmm

This could be a possible leveling plateau here. I never once considered using a smaller woofer sub. I see the logic in it. Bigger subs tend to draw attention to them selves. (Well with the speakers i use anyways). While a smaller sub allows the mains to still play boss. I don't see any speaker type not benefiting from this. Maybe panels might not react the same or matter.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 12:17:21 PM »
Depends on the content you're feeding it too. Smaller isn't necessarily better because it's faster. The old adage, "there's no replacement for displacement", still holds true.  Especially if you're listening habits dictate it to be the case.

Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2014, 04:26:19 PM »
I wonder if Tmazz's strategy is correct on the size of the sub woofer for maximum integration? Or is it just the quality of that sub? hmm

This could be a possible leveling plateau here. I never once considered using a smaller woofer sub. I see the logic in it. Bigger subs tend to draw attention to them selves. (Well with the speakers i use anyways). While a smaller sub allows the mains to still play boss. I don't see any speaker type not benefiting from this. Maybe panels might not react the same or matter.

Bigger is better because bigger means higher acoustic impedance which means playing lower, louder and less distortion with less power. There are lots of tricks engineers can apply to make small drivers play low, loud and clean, but never as clean as a large driver. And never as satisfying at low volumes, because a small cone can never have as high acoustic impedance as large cone.

The sense of speed in bass is a misnomer. All bass is slow. The illusion of fast bass comes from the midrange detail that is added to the bass frequencies. When midrange and bass bands are not in sync it  sounds like slow bass. The misaligned phase  of different frequencies is also called group delay. Good phase integration causes the illusion of fast bass.

Reflex ports have very high phase distortion, very high group delay.
The reflex ports on the main speakers have to be sealed to eliminate their phase distortion, to allow good phase integration with a separate subwoofer. Only the lowest playing speaker should be ported, if necessary. A sealed speaker has much less phase distortion that a port.

Offline Werd

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2014, 04:56:40 PM »
Depends on the content you're feeding it too. Smaller isn't necessarily better because it's faster. The old adage, "there's no replacement for displacement", still holds true.  Especially if you're listening habits dictate it to be the case.

Bob

But what if the main objective is sweet spot imaging? More bass weight due to powered extension.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Werd

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 05:00:15 PM »
I wonder if Tmazz's strategy is correct on the size of the sub woofer for maximum integration? Or is it just the quality of that sub? hmm

This could be a possible leveling plateau here. I never once considered using a smaller woofer sub. I see the logic in it. Bigger subs tend to draw attention to them selves. (Well with the speakers i use anyways). While a smaller sub allows the mains to still play boss. I don't see any speaker type not benefiting from this. Maybe panels might not react the same or matter.

Bigger is better because bigger means higher acoustic impedance which means playing lower, louder and less distortion with less power. There are lots of tricks engineers can apply to make small drivers play low, loud and clean, but never as clean as a large driver. And never as satisfying at low volumes, because a small cone can never have as high acoustic impedance as large cone.

The sense of speed in bass is a misnomer. All bass is slow. The illusion of fast bass comes from the midrange detail that is added to the bass frequencies. When midrange and bass bands are not in sync it  sounds like slow bass. The misaligned phase  of different frequencies is also called group delay. Good phase integration causes the illusion of fast bass.

Reflex ports have very high phase distortion, very high group delay.
The reflex ports on the main speakers have to be sealed to eliminate their phase distortion, to allow good phase integration with a separate subwoofer. Only the lowest playing speaker should be ported, if necessary. A sealed speaker has much less phase distortion that a port.

You know what i mean though? A single sub tends to draw focus to the sub. It just with a generic set up. Never tried with a nice xover with good phase like a Bryston pro xover.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Précis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2014, 05:02:31 PM »
Imaging on a subwoofer?
Maybe I'm missing something. That's a new one to me.
Mine start in the fiftyish range. Somewhere around there, there isn't any imagining.

Clarify?

Offline tmazz

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2014, 06:30:28 PM »
That's interesting. you got a woofer smaller than your mains.

No, it's bigger, but not by much. The Nola Woofers are 6.5" and the sub is 7.5 x2 (one active driver and one passive radiator.)
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Subwoofer integration question
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2014, 06:36:49 PM »
I wonder if Tmazz's strategy is correct on the size of the sub woofer for maximum integration? Or is it just the quality of that sub? hmm

This could be a possible leveling plateau here. I never once considered using a smaller woofer sub. I see the logic in it. Bigger subs tend to draw attention to them selves. (Well with the speakers i use anyways). While a smaller sub allows the mains to still play boss. I don't see any speaker type not benefiting from this. Maybe panels might not react the same or matter.

IMO it has to be  both. I don't think smaller is neccesarily better, but in my case it was a better match for my mains. I don't think that a bigger woofer, properly matched and set up will draw more attention to itself tan a smaller one. I think the key to a woofer not calling attention to itself is to pick one that has similar sonic characteristics to your mains so you are not starting out with a disconnect before you even try to set them up.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables