AudioNervosa

Electro Stimulation Ward => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: rollo on March 13, 2018, 11:06:47 AM

Title: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on March 13, 2018, 11:06:47 AM
  Guys check out GigaWatt PC-4EVO conditioner www.gigawatt.eu/products/power-conditioners/ . The reviews are quite impressive.
I really like powercon connector for PC and circuit breaker for on/off. Read the reviews. Thinking of taking on line.


charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on March 13, 2018, 11:25:05 AM
Is this similar to products from PS Audio and others? If so, have heard those other products and why would this company be better?
Nick
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: tmazz on March 13, 2018, 11:43:20 AM
Everything I see on the web site says that these are 220v devices and the plugs shown in the photos are European types.

Do they have versions specifically built for use in the US Market?

Would this be something you use in addition to or instead of an Uberbuss?
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on March 13, 2018, 11:52:05 AM
The fanciest looking totally average power conditioner I've ever seen. It probably sounds ok. It's just an over-glorified regular rendition of a Felix (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gigawatt5/3.html).
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: dBe on March 13, 2018, 10:32:13 PM
Everything I see on the web site says that these are 220v devices and the plugs shown in the photos are European types.

Do they have versions specifically built for use in the US Market?

Would this be something you use in addition to or instead of an Uberbuss?
I'll build you better versions of those boards for $50.00 each.  Inductors are not so cool for current throughput.  The bus bars are smart and look impressive though.  All of their money is tied up in the casework.  That is why I build plain, ugly black boxes.  All of the my customer's money is spent inside the box.  I will say that the Gigawatt Schuko connectors are probably the best I have used for the European Market.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on March 14, 2018, 12:28:15 PM
Inductors can work just fine (you don't see it often), but I don't see any indication that they know how to use them well enough to support anywhere near the amount of current that they will be using.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on March 14, 2018, 06:16:06 PM
I have a friend that has a 5500VA Purity 240VAC>120VAC 12 outlet transformer for sale for $500.00.  It is in Hawaii, but will ship air freight to the buyer.

It is a behemouth.  If I can compress the pictures enough I'll try to post them here.

If anyone is interested PM or email me, please.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on March 14, 2018, 09:11:19 PM
Doug,

You're right in the sense that particular one is thus... That doesn't mean something special cannot be made. I have plans for a power conditioner that would be about as special as possible. But it's going to cost as much as a Porsche.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: dBe on March 14, 2018, 10:02:30 PM
Doug,

You're right in the sense that particular one is thus... That doesn't mean something special cannot be made. I have plans for a power conditioner that would be about as special as possible. But it's going to cost as much as a Porsche.
Jeremy, rock on.  So do I.  I love a worthy adversary.  That is what drives SOTA!  It might only cost what a Subaru cost, though.  :D

My original MajikBUSS power filters were designed for the local market, but that soon changed thanks to Danny Richie.  Since I built the originals I have made about 30 changes to get to where the Uber is now.  I've learned a lot since then, but the changes are too expensive to implement.  I priced the Uber at about a third of what I should have since it commonly replaces Adept Respone, Synergistic, Bybee, Audio Magic, Running Springs, etc, etc.  all of them are about $5K because they are pretty.  Up until now I have not build audio jewelry, just acceptably utilitarian cases to fit behind the rack.  That is soon to change.

I have learned that I have a tendancy to undervalue my talents and my products.  Don't do what I did.  Charge what it is worth.  Build it and they will buy it.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on March 15, 2018, 01:21:09 PM
You do. It's tricky though, that pricing stuff...

Part of me wants to price so everyone can buy (although the parts don't really allow it). But then again it makes little sense in some ways because it'll be seen as disposable, or not valuable - and I'll dig myself a hole where I'm in debt because I can't achieve WalMart numbers.

When it comes to it, I really don't have a solution to make everyone happy. So I figure I'll try to offer DIY so that who ever doesn't have deep pockets can make their own, and the rest whom want to whine about not wanting to DIY or try to get a good enough job to buy the stuff... Well they're on their own.

I have a power conditioner I've been wanting to release that is about $2400-2500, and would need 4 orders upfront.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: tmazz on March 15, 2018, 03:06:10 PM
Pricing stuff can be very tricky, especially for a small shop because you have to set prices that will not only cover your costs of doing business right now, but also provide you with enough cash flow to continue to run the business if it becomes successful, Because if you price your product too low you will have a hard time going back and getting customers to accept a price hike later on. And if you price to high you will drive away potential customers. It's quite a balancing act.

Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on March 15, 2018, 03:53:21 PM
Pricing stuff can be very tricky, especially for a small shop because you have to set prices that will not only cover your costs of doing business right now, but also provide you with enough cash flow to continue to run the business if it becomes successful, Because if you price your product too low you will have a hard time going back and getting customers to accept a price hike later on. And if you price to high you will drive away potential customers. It's quite a balancing act.
PREACH IT, Brother.   :thumb:

Ain't easy being a small fish in a pond full of piranas that are too cheap to pay for quality hardware.  That is why the "high end" market is so different.  We want the best value for the dollar and they want the latest and greatest.  Human psyche at its most interesting.

Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on March 15, 2018, 05:23:08 PM
Pricing stuff can be very tricky, especially for a small shop because you have to set prices that will not only cover your costs of doing business right now, but also provide you with enough cash flow to continue to run the business if it becomes successful, Because if you price your product too low you will have a hard time going back and getting customers to accept a price hike later on. And if you price to high you will drive away potential customers. It's quite a balancing act.
PREACH IT, Brother.   :thumb:

Ain't easy being a small fish in a pond full of piranas that are too cheap to pay for quality hardware.  That is why the "high end" market is so different.  We want the best value for the dollar and they want the latest and greatest.  Human psyche at its most interesting.


  ANSWER YOUR PMS you you thats what you are. I need diffussors  Tell me about trying being a dealer.

charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on March 15, 2018, 06:10:49 PM
Yes, I imagine pricing is very difficult. Some guys do it as a hobby and others need to make a living.  I’m a buyer and diy doesn’t work for me as I lack the skillset to do it. A woodworking project would be horrible. Trust me when I tell you my speaker cabinet would look like Dracula’s coffin. I’ve soldered maybe 10 times over the years and can’t read a schematic.
So I look for a bargain when I can and have to trust in an expert’s opinions like Dave E, whose opinion I highly value. I get some great advice on this forum that’s led me to some great information and wonderful products, and for that, I’m especially grateful.
Nick
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: tmazz on March 15, 2018, 06:42:18 PM
Pricing stuff can be very tricky, especially for a small shop because you have to set prices that will not only cover your costs of doing business right now, but also provide you with enough cash flow to continue to run the business if it becomes successful, Because if you price your product too low you will have a hard time going back and getting customers to accept a price hike later on. And if you price to high you will drive away potential customers. It's quite a balancing act.
PREACH IT, Brother.   :thumb:

Ain't easy being a small fish in a pond full of piranas that are too cheap to pay for quality hardware.  That is why the "high end" market is so different.  We want the best value for the dollar and they want the latest and greatest.  Human psyche at its most interesting.

On top of that when doing production in small batches the fixed operating costs can eat you alive.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: dBe on March 15, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Pricing stuff can be very tricky, especially for a small shop because you have to set prices that will not only cover your costs of doing business right now, but also provide you with enough cash flow to continue to run the business if it becomes successful, Because if you price your product too low you will have a hard time going back and getting customers to accept a price hike later on. And if you price to high you will drive away potential customers. It's quite a balancing act.
PREACH IT, Brother.   :thumb:

Ain't easy being a small fish in a pond full of piranas that are too cheap to pay for quality hardware.  That is why the "high end" market is so different.  We want the best value for the dollar and they want the latest and greatest.  Human psyche at its most interesting.
[/

  ANSWER YOUR PMS you you thats what you are. I need diffussors  Tell me about trying being a dealer.

charles
Forwarded to Greg (Igor).  He owns that company now.  All I did was design them and bring them to market 25 years ago.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on March 16, 2018, 08:11:07 AM
   Thank you Dave. Did not know thought it was your gig. 


charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner ????
Post by: rollo on March 16, 2018, 08:12:43 AM
  I should have put question marks after the Subject. I will have one shortly and find out how good it is.


charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner ????
Post by: tmazz on March 16, 2018, 12:58:43 PM
  I should have put question marks after the Subject. I will have one shortly and find out how good it is.


charles


As always, anything can look good (or bad) on paper, but the proof is always in the listening.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: dBe on March 16, 2018, 07:48:39 PM
   Thank you Dave. Did not know thought it was your gig. 


charles
No worries. It was for a long time until I couldn't juggle 3 in front and 2 behind my back.  Igor will be back to you soon.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: TrueAudio on May 28, 2018, 12:43:16 PM
Try this one on for size:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8je87-smc-audio-nexus-ac-and-grounding-filter-ac-conditioners

(https://ucarecdn.com/4719a003-2f48-4194-a5a4-1490fd38276a/-/preview/700x470/)

Asking Price: $15,000.00
New Retail Price: $20,000.00

"This is the actual Michael Fremer June 2018 Stereophile review unit just returned.

This unit is built to an absolutely cost-no-object standard. It is only sold direct to client to avoid the usual distribution markups. One look at the build, and it is evident this unit is in a class of one. However, it is the total system sonic contribution and star grounding solution it represents which belongs in the best systems.

Even a cursory examination of the Nexus vs interconnects and speaker cables, (many of which cost more for one meter that the Nexus) should elicit a big question. How can the cables justify the price? The obvious answer -- they cannot. Where is the value proposition for the audiophile -- in the Nexus.

To wit:

1. Panzerholtz (Tankwood) rigid, inert, milled chassis

2. Bocchino Mariner 10 IEC connector (the world standard for sonics 10x the cost
conventional audiophile IEC's). 125 amp ready. Absolutely no current limiting. No current
limiting coils and transformers are used. Purely passive filtration via the worlds best
capacitors, Duelund CAST silver.

3. Stillpoints are integrated into the bottom of the chassis and Stillpoint isolators are used to isolate each duplex outlet.

4. Furutech outlets GTX-NCF Rhodium outlets, aluminum mounting plates and carbon
fiber dress plates

5. Enklein pure silver wiring

6. Cardas un-plated copper grounding posts

7. Pure copper buss bar internal construction

No trades. Local demo is encouraged."
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on May 28, 2018, 01:03:09 PM
Try this one on for size:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8je87-smc-audio-nexus-ac-and-grounding-filter-ac-conditioners

(https://ucarecdn.com/4719a003-2f48-4194-a5a4-1490fd38276a/-/preview/700x470/)

Asking Price: $15,000.00
New Retail Price: $20,000.00

"This is the actual Michael Fremer June 2018 Stereophile review unit just returned.

This unit is built to an absolutely cost-no-object standard. It is only sold direct to client to avoid the usual distribution markups. One look at the build, and it is evident this unit is in a class of one. However, it is the total system sonic contribution and star grounding solution it represents which belongs in the best systems.

Even a cursory examination of the Nexus vs interconnects and speaker cables, (many of which cost more for one meter that the Nexus) should elicit a big question. How can the cables justify the price? The obvious answer -- they cannot. Where is the value proposition for the audiophile -- in the Nexus.

To wit:

1. Panzerholtz (Tankwood) rigid, inert, milled chassis

2. Bocchino Mariner 10 IEC connector (the world standard for sonics 10x the cost
conventional audiophile IEC's). 125 amp ready. Absolutely no current limiting. No current
limiting coils and transformers are used. Purely passive filtration via the worlds best
capacitors, Duelund CAST silver.

3. Stillpoints are integrated into the bottom of the chassis and Stillpoint isolators are used to isolate each duplex outlet.

4. Furutech outlets GTX-NCF Rhodium outlets, aluminum mounting plates and carbon
fiber dress plates

5. Enklein pure silver wiring

6. Cardas un-plated copper grounding posts

7. Pure copper buss bar internal construction

No trades. Local demo is encouraged."


Ummm....I’ll take whatever Dave is selling  :thumb:
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on May 30, 2018, 08:54:46 PM
Try this one on for size:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8je87-smc-audio-nexus-ac-and-grounding-filter-ac-conditioners

(https://ucarecdn.com/4719a003-2f48-4194-a5a4-1490fd38276a/-/preview/700x470/)

Asking Price: $15,000.00
New Retail Price: $20,000.00

"This is the actual Michael Fremer June 2018 Stereophile review unit just returned.

This unit is built to an absolutely cost-no-object standard. It is only sold direct to client to avoid the usual distribution markups. One look at the build, and it is evident this unit is in a class of one. However, it is the total system sonic contribution and star grounding solution it represents which belongs in the best systems.

Even a cursory examination of the Nexus vs interconnects and speaker cables, (many of which cost more for one meter that the Nexus) should elicit a big question. How can the cables justify the price? The obvious answer -- they cannot. Where is the value proposition for the audiophile -- in the Nexus.

To wit:

1. Panzerholtz (Tankwood) rigid, inert, milled chassis

2. Bocchino Mariner 10 IEC connector (the world standard for sonics 10x the cost
conventional audiophile IEC's). 125 amp ready. Absolutely no current limiting. No current
limiting coils and transformers are used. Purely passive filtration via the worlds best
capacitors, Duelund CAST silver.

3. Stillpoints are integrated into the bottom of the chassis and Stillpoint isolators are used to isolate each duplex outlet.

4. Furutech outlets GTX-NCF Rhodium outlets, aluminum mounting plates and carbon
fiber dress plates

5. Enklein pure silver wiring

6. Cardas un-plated copper grounding posts

7. Pure copper buss bar internal construction

No trades. Local demo is encouraged."


Ummm....I’ll take whatever Dave is selling  :thumb:
Nick, I'll build you something much, much better with at least as good of components for half of that money.  There are certain components that are built just because they can be that crush the performance to cost window.  Just because something can be built doesn't mean that it should be.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on May 31, 2018, 08:15:51 AM
Try this one on for size:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8je87-smc-audio-nexus-ac-and-grounding-filter-ac-conditioners

(https://ucarecdn.com/4719a003-2f48-4194-a5a4-1490fd38276a/-/preview/700x470/)

Asking Price: $15,000.00
New Retail Price: $20,000.00

"This is the actual Michael Fremer June 2018 Stereophile review unit just returned.

This unit is built to an absolutely cost-no-object standard. It is only sold direct to client to avoid the usual distribution markups. One look at the build, and it is evident this unit is in a class of one. However, it is the total system sonic contribution and star grounding solution it represents which belongs in the best systems.

Even a cursory examination of the Nexus vs interconnects and speaker cables, (many of which cost more for one meter that the Nexus) should elicit a big question. How can the cables justify the price? The obvious answer -- they cannot. Where is the value proposition for the audiophile -- in the Nexus.

To wit:

1. Panzerholtz (Tankwood) rigid, inert, milled chassis

2. Bocchino Mariner 10 IEC connector (the world standard for sonics 10x the cost
conventional audiophile IEC's). 125 amp ready. Absolutely no current limiting. No current
limiting coils and transformers are used. Purely passive filtration via the worlds best
capacitors, Duelund CAST silver.

3. Stillpoints are integrated into the bottom of the chassis and Stillpoint isolators are used to isolate each duplex outlet.

4. Furutech outlets GTX-NCF Rhodium outlets, aluminum mounting plates and carbon
fiber dress plates

5. Enklein pure silver wiring

6. Cardas un-plated copper grounding posts

7. Pure copper buss bar internal construction

No trades. Local demo is encouraged."


Ummm....I’ll take whatever Dave is selling  :thumb:
Nick, I'll build you something much, much better with at least as good of components for half of that money.  There are certain components that are built just because they can be that crush the performance to cost window.  Just because something can be built doesn't mean that it should be.

Dave,
I’m happy with the Uber and will likely try your latest product one of these days. Anything beyond that isn’t necessary and isn’t in my budget. I do need a preamp soon, so am saving up for that
Nick
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on May 31, 2018, 09:15:27 AM
Nick, I made my reply based upon my observation that price beyond a certain point is more of an exercise in self than performance.  I don't live in that world.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on May 31, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Nick, I made my reply based upon my observation that price beyond a certain point is more of an exercise in self than performance.  I don't live in that world.

Dave,
I figured as much and was kind of thinking out loud. I’m amazed at the performance of products like my used kef LS 50s for $750 and all of Gary’s reasonably priced cables. I suspect that Tom’s icepower 1200as amp will fall into that category as well. I sure hope you’re enjoying your trip as I’m overwhelmed by cement dust as the living room concrete pad was cracked and buckled and needed grinding. It’s even worse than I imagined it could be and I have a very vivid imagination  :roll:
Nick
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on May 31, 2018, 05:10:05 PM
Nick, I made my reply based upon my observation that price beyond a certain point is more of an exercise in self than performance.  I don't live in that world.

Dave,
I figured as much and was kind of thinking out loud. I’m amazed at the performance of products like my used kef LS 50s for $750 and all of Gary’s reasonably priced cables. I suspect that Tom’s icepower 1200as amp will fall into that category as well. I sure hope you’re enjoying your trip as I’m overwhelmed by cement dust as the living room concrete pad was cracked and buckled and needed grinding. It’s even worse than I imagined it could be and I have a very vivid imagination  :roll:
Nick
Ooooohhhhhhhhhhh! Bummer!  Did they leave dust filters that run continuously?

Sorry for your inconvenience.   :roll:
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Nick B on May 31, 2018, 05:55:32 PM
Nick, I made my reply based upon my observation that price beyond a certain point is more of an exercise in self than performance.  I don't live in that world.

Dave,
I figured as much and was kind of thinking out loud. I’m amazed at the performance of products like my used kef LS 50s for $750 and all of Gary’s reasonably priced cables. I suspect that Tom’s icepower 1200as amp will fall into that category as well. I sure hope you’re enjoying your trip as I’m overwhelmed by cement dust as the living room concrete pad was cracked and buckled and needed grinding. It’s even worse than I imagined it could be and I have a very vivid imagination  :roll:
Nick
Ooooohhhhhhhhhhh! Bummer!  Did they leave dust filters that run continuously?

Sorry for your inconvenience.   :roll:

Dust filters....dust filters....we don’t need no stinkin’ dust filters.... Actually, they tried taping light drop cloth to the walls, but the AC created a bit of a vacuum and some of the drop cloth loosened. I cut a few slits and no more vacuum. It’s really tough finding somebody decent in these parts. Quite a housing boom again in so Utah.  :-({|=
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on August 03, 2018, 08:46:59 AM
The fanciest looking totally average power conditioner I've ever seen. It probably sounds ok. It's just an over-glorified regular rendition of a Felix (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gigawatt5/3.html).

 We have recently compared the Felix which for the money is OK to the Gigawatt PC-2 with optional DC blocker and Felix belongs in the garbage pail. We now sell Gigawatt products as well as our loved conditioner UBERBUSS.
 Different beasts with different sonic attributes and features and pricing. We use the Ubers on the amps and GigaWatt for front end. With the mono blocks drawing serious amperage the Ubers do not loose any dynamics or thin out. We also can use a dedicated line for each mono block with dedicated Uber cleaning. We use three dedicated lines. Two for amps, one for front end.
 It really depends on your components and their draw. Our demo systems have NEVER sounded better with this combo.


charles




Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on August 03, 2018, 11:03:25 AM
I fail to see how using the same basic topology gave you good and bad results. I'd have to know some details.

Dynamics have to see voltage sag to actually "go away". (it's not a function of current) So if you are getting sag, you probably have something undersized.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: TrueAudio on August 04, 2018, 09:04:30 AM
I fail to see how using the same basic topology gave you good and bad results. I'd have to know some details.

Dynamics have to see voltage sag to actually "go away". (it's not a function of current) So if you are getting sag, you probably have something undersized.
If it isn't a function of current, what's the purpose behind massive capacitor storage banks in power amplifiers then (as well as modifications specifically making a point of mentioning increased capacitance over a stock unit)?  Hundreds (or more) amplifier manufacturers always highlight the instantaneous current that is available due to said manufacturers power supplies.  But even the best supplies aren't perfect and the AC line upstream of them is still compromised (however small of an amount) from the much larger current demands of lower frequency transients.  I would imagine putting a quality clamp on ammeter on your speaker cables while playing the 1812 overture at full power, (if it's fast enough to measure those changes) would be interesting to observe.

Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on August 04, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
If the power supply in your amplifier (playing 1812) gets pulled in voltage from say 40v down to 10v, it can draw the same amount of current from the transformer as it had at 40v. The discharge in capacitors is in joules. The more capacitance you have the easier it is to keep the voltage up. The capacitors provide current of the voltage they were charged with, and voltage drops off as more and more comes from them. So let's say you have a bucket. You need X amount of water in it. The level of the water in the bucket is voltage, and the amount of water is current. The only way to keep the voltage high is by having a massive bucket, so that as you pour water out a significant amount of water will be taken without changing level very much.

What you hear is voltage drop. Not current "drop". In order to actually reduce current enough to hear it, you need to get near failure in audio gear typically. What does happen though is lots of wasted current drops the voltage because you're using lots of water (joules).

I don't know why manufacturers say all of that except that it works as silly marketing. It *sounds* like what they describe but is not. Many may simply not know better, and many don't know why they need such oversized parts to make it sound the way they want. I have no real argument against a stout power supply, but stoutness to PSRR is actually on somewhat of a bell curve - eventually too much gives you low frequency noise.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on August 04, 2018, 12:48:42 PM
  We have two smart guys here talking way over my knowledge on this matter. So for me after the engineers design a conditioner my only way of knowing the result is to plug it in and listen to its affect.
   It appears to me Gigawatt has engineered a fine product line that if one is interested in conditioning should be considered. Previous to the GigaWatt PC-2+ my Consonance Cyber 211 mono blocks hummed. Not now, gone. They hummed witl all previous conditioners. The Gigawatt as an option is supplied with a DC blocker. That DC blocker had a huge edge over the non DC blocker model. No fuse either,using a circuit breaker that was redesigned by GigaWatt eliminating the fusible link to a more robust link that passes more current. Brilliant. Similar to the after market fuses using a heavier Ga. element.
 To my and my customers ears we are impressed to say the least. All one would except without ANY of the negatives associated with conditioners.
We will demonstrate the PC-2+ at CAF 1018.


charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on August 04, 2018, 05:40:17 PM
Charles, it sounds like you may have a DC problem. DC blockers are usually just to eliminate hum from transformers... but if you have a lot of it then it'll choke your transformers bad.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: tmazz on August 05, 2018, 05:01:30 AM
Charles, when you say that the Consonance  amps hummed are you talking about a physical hum coming from the amp itself or and electrical hum coming out of the speakers when it is hooked up? The first would typically be a function of DC in your incoming power while the later would indicate some kind of circuitry problem in the amps power supply.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on August 05, 2018, 08:31:00 AM
   Coming through the wall baby. Electrical hum. The trannies in amp do not hum and zero circuit issues.



charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on August 05, 2018, 08:32:25 AM
Charles, it sounds like you may have a DC problem. DC blockers are usually just to eliminate hum from transformers... but if you have a lot of it then it'll choke your transformers bad.



   Very possible I need to measure and find out for sure. Thanks.


charles
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: TrueAudio on August 06, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
If the power supply in your amplifier (playing 1812) gets pulled in voltage from say 40v down to 10v, it can draw the same amount of current from the transformer as it had at 40v. The discharge in capacitors is in joules. The more capacitance you have the easier it is to keep the voltage up. The capacitors provide current of the voltage they were charged with, and voltage drops off as more and more comes from them. So let's say you have a bucket. You need X amount of water in it. The level of the water in the bucket is voltage, and the amount of water is current. The only way to keep the voltage high is by having a massive bucket, so that as you pour water out a significant amount of water will be taken without changing level very much.

What you hear is voltage drop. Not current "drop". In order to actually reduce current enough to hear it, you need to get near failure in audio gear typically. What does happen though is lots of wasted current drops the voltage because you're using lots of water (joules).

I don't know why manufacturers say all of that except that it works as silly marketing. It *sounds* like what they describe but is not. Many may simply not know better, and many don't know why they need such oversized parts to make it sound the way they want. I have no real argument against a stout power supply, but stoutness to PSRR is actually on somewhat of a bell curve - eventually too much gives you low frequency noise.
It appears to me at least one manufacturer builds in, (as part of the amplifiers circuitry) their own version of something like Dave's Uberbuss:

http://halcro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UPFC_PowerSupply.pdf

http://halcro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/HALCRO_TECHNICAL_PAPER.pdf

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/806halcro2.jpg)
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: TrueAudio on August 06, 2018, 06:08:40 PM
http://halcro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Mains_Conditioners.pdf

Quote
MAINS POWER CONDITIONING & FILTERING

Most audio power amplifiers:

1. have no power supply regulation,
2. nor filtering and
3. practically all use "peak rectification" power supplies.

The Halcro amplifiers thoroughly address all these points, and mains conditioners address some of them, but not all.  Power supply regulators essentially maintain a constant mains ripple-free supply voltage to the amplifier circuitry. There are basically 3 different types of power supply regulators which are:

a) Linear regulators. These are the simplest, but they generate a great deal of heat, and so designers of amplifiers are reluctant to use them because amplifiers already generate a great deal of heat at higher powers even without linear regulators.

b) Switching regulators. These are very efficient, that is they do not produce much heat, but they produce radio frequency interference.  However, if well designed, this interference can be reduced to insignificant levels- far less in fact by than that borne by the normal mains supply. New E.C. standards are particularly strict in this regard and only allow radio frequency emissions of the order of micro-Watts! The Halcro units use switching regulators which do comply with EC standards.

c) Power factor corrected supplies (PFC). These are very rare in the audio industry, and are expensive to manufacture. These supplies doubly regulate the mains-to-amplifier supply conversion, and thus if designed well are particularly mains signal free. They also have the very substantial advantage in producing no mains current distortion, unlike all other types of supplies, which produce very considerable mains current distortion, which may cause interference to other equipment. (These PFC supplies should really be called "low mains current distortion supplies" and not "power factor corrected supplies," a term adopted by the industry which means something quite different.)

To address the problems cited above, the audio industry now produces 3 different types of mains conditioners:

1. Mains filters. These filter out radio interference signals from the mains (so called "EMI" or "Electro-magnetic Interference.") which can cause substantial degradation to the performance of many brands of amplifiers, especially those which do not have appropriate circuitry to suppress such interference. Thus such filters may be of benefit to some brands. The Halcro units have extremely extensive filters, both pre- and post- power supply, and in addition have EMI suppression within the actual amplifier circuitry. Thus these units will probably be of no benefit to the Halcro amplifier, but may well improve source equipment (preamps, SACD players etc)

2. Mains regeneration supplies. These in effect reproduce a regulated mains supply and thus can be of benefit to amplifiers containing no power supply regulation. The Halcro units are doubly regulated and thus the use of such units will probably be of no benefit to the Halcro equipment. Even though most source equipment has regulated power supplies, these mains regeneration units may assist some source equipment which are susceptible to mains current or voltage distortion.

3. Units combining the above features 1. and 2. The comments above apply to these units.  We are not aware of any mains conditioners which incorporate mains filtering, and mains regeneration, and low mains current distortion circuitry; a feature


Bruce Candy, Physicist
Head of HALCRO research and development.
Edit:  I believe Dave has said that the Uberbuss provides for a "current well", and that it is a *separate* feature/implementation from his PFC network.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on August 07, 2018, 08:55:49 PM
I have never been able to hear a Halcro amp.  When I first read about them their approach seemed not only bleeding edge but light years ahead of other designs.

Given the degradation of the grid since they were first introduced their design makes even more sense now!   :thumb:

I’m basically a tube guy, but I’m not opposed to intelligent sand amps.  That is why I have some of Folsom’s amps.  They make sense.  One of the reasons I love tube amps is the power supply topology.  Lots of inherent rejection from the choke(s) and the ability to bypass the noisy crap floating around on the AC lines... if you know how.
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: Folsom on August 07, 2018, 09:31:29 PM
I thought pretty much no one liked Halcro's first amps...
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on August 07, 2018, 10:54:22 PM
I thought pretty much no one liked Halcro's first amps...
Don’t know first hand.  I heard that they were sterile like the later
Krell offerings that I thought were some of the most overpriced nasty sounding amps I ever heard.  I just wanted to hear them.  The tech made sense in the PS end of the equation, but I just didn’t grok the amp implementation. 
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: TrueAudio on August 08, 2018, 05:00:20 PM
Other interesting reading that has relevance here:

Ncore Technology White Paper

https://web.archive.org/web/20131101191027/https://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf

___________________________________________________________

https://www.devialet.com/en-eu/expert-pro-power-supply/

"Expert Pro uses a revolutionary switch-mode power supply to take you from absolute silence to explosive dynamics. At lightning speed. This ultra high-performance power supply method feeds the rest of the system, achieving energy efficiency rates of 90%.

This intelligent dual power supply runs on a microprocessor capable of adjusting in real time. Traditionally isolated, power factor correction (PFC) and regulation functions are fused into a single revolutionary single stage structure. This allows for heightened power density and enhanced sensitivity to shifts in energy requirements.

The control loop is ultra-quick and particularly well suited to audio engineering. Expert Pro systems can instantly shift from 0 to 4000 Watts while sustaining an average running power of 1200W. Output voltage is variable by a factor of 8 from +/- 10V to +/-80V and constantly changes to minimize overall thermal dissipation.

A load balancing controller ensures even load sharing between reservoir capacities across different power rails, doubling the available energy supply.

Power supply relies on a central transformer based on planar technology. It serves two purposes: spreading energy in packets and ensuring the electrical safety of the product by isolating the hazardous areas. Compact and perfectly symmetrical, the central transformer is far superior to traditional solutions in terms of efficiency and primary/secondary pollution.

Power supply is unaffected by the mains and runs silently with remarkably low electromagnetic disturbance. It is universal and compliant with all power grid supplies: 90-240Vac – 50/60Hz. Driven by a microprocessor, power supply is automatically protected from anomalies including surges, dips and overloads. On a practical level, functional range is stretched out even further to 50 - 270Vac ~ 40/70 Hz, making your Expert Pro available for use anywhere in the world."
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: P.I. on August 12, 2018, 01:36:44 PM
Suffice it to say that I'm not much of a SMPS fan.  In the world on consumer electronics they are the cheapest (and I mean "cheapest" wat to power just about anything.  They are spit out of chinese factories by the millions and are responsible for much of the line pollution that we have to contend with in trying to extract the best possible performance from out systems.  Its is not only the backfed EMF from these pieces of junk, but also the fact that they are tiny little radion transmitters.

Rant over.

There are some SMPS that are very, very good.  The M-Core is an example of a very good supply.  When doe right they can be incredibly dynamic, powerful and clean.  It is too bad that most audio manufacturers buy off of the shelf junk because it is inexpensive instead of hunting out or designing good ones.  My hat is off to the designers that create the good ones.

I'm still a linear supply guy when possible.  Especially when it is a good stiff supply mated to vacuum tubes!
Title: Re: State of the Art Power-Conditioner
Post by: rollo on October 29, 2018, 01:11:21 PM
  Well is that not what the prototype BussStation does? aAdevice that eliminates that noise from our electrical system ? Yes it is. Dave start your engine and SELL THESE THINGS. Just improves every darn thing.


charles